that's why the Neb Escort > Gsd-2

you're paying points not for the anti-squadron, but for Squadron 2

hopefully, one day some imperial mad man will realize that GSD-1s have Squadron 2 and can issue the relevant command

would really help against the B-wings they keep dashing themselves against

I actually have used Tarkin in VGGG+fighters to issue some squadron token commands off of the Glads... but most of the time, they NEED something else. A Nav, a repair, a conc fire.

do you ever run an Escort Neb for squadrons WITHOUT Yavaris? Didn't think so. Or one that is completely away from Yavaris? nope.

To beat squadrons you just need to ignore them. Blow up the ships, and then you win the game. If your opponent has a lot of squadrons, then they probably have a low ship count. It should then be easy for you to save your activations and force your opponent to move all his ships first, then you blow up their ships.

Ignore squadrons at your peril.

If this has been working for you, I strongly suspect your opponents simply haven't been that practiced with squadrons.

People say this a lot, and it's annoying. Its just as easy to counter with "People winning with squadrons are playing against people not very practiced at avoiding them and killing the carriers".

There are good arguments to be had for squadrons vs no squadrons, but assuming a lack of skill from a players opponents is not one. You dont know anything of the sort, and its insulting both to the player winning with all ships (many players at many tournaments) and those losing with the squadrons.

Stick to arguments that can be supported with actual data.

much as that might be annoying, i do find it a little true. squadrons are a harder part of this game... and some people really can't get many games of armada...

Armada games travel, set up, play, tear down, take a minimum of 3 hours, and more like 5 incl travel time, since no one close to you probably plays if you're that average joe who likes star wars.

I have a friend who plays xwing, and theyve played some xwing recently, but I bet they've played only 5 games of armada max in their life.

I've tried to get more now, but I'm still around only 15 games.

This is... what... a year now into the games' lifespan? I'm averaging 1 game a month for the life of this game. Dang.

I think its going to take me about 5 to 10 more games to fully understand squadrons at the mediocre level. And how to counter.

I concieve the basic idea now. But if you asked me to beat someone using no-sq vs mass squadron... its completely down to luck on my side. (Although, I think based on Edsel-Blerg triangle theory, the mass sq has the advantage here...)

Just because they are harder to use doesn't mean they are more effective once you master them, or that people currently are using them badly. Many players have played hundreds of games already (my stores main players are probably close to that) and some people still win with all ship lists, including at tournaments (some quite large ones)

The point is that there is literally no data to support the assertion that all ship lists are losing to "unskilled" or "mediocre" squadron players, in the exact way that there is no data supporting the opposite. Zero, nada, none.

It is simply an opinion put about to explain away some players results, instead of using the several already quite good discussion points backed by actual data or maths.

that's why the Neb Escort > Gsd-2

you're paying points not for the anti-squadron, but for Squadron 2

hopefully, one day some imperial mad man will realize that GSD-1s have Squadron 2 and can issue the relevant command

would really help against the B-wings they keep dashing themselves against

I actually have used Tarkin in VGGG+fighters to issue some squadron token commands off of the Glads... but most of the time, they NEED something else. A Nav, a repair, a conc fire.

do you ever run an Escort Neb for squadrons WITHOUT Yavaris? Didn't think so. Or one that is completely away from Yavaris? nope.

what's this "didn't think so" nonsense? of course I run Escorts without Yavaris; Yavaris is unique!

would slap that **** on everyone if I could, though

the Escort Neb is a solid ship with good long range punch and the ability to Escort your bombers into combat by dicing ties like a blender.

Just because they are harder to use doesn't mean they are more effective once you master them, or that people currently are using them badly. Many players have played hundreds of games already (my stores main players are probably close to that) and some people still win with all ship lists, including at tournaments (some quite large ones)

The point is that there is literally no data to support the assertion that all ship lists are losing to "unskilled" or "mediocre" squadron players, in the exact way that there is no data supporting the opposite. Zero, nada, none.

It is simply an opinion put about to explain away some players results, instead of using the several already quite good discussion points backed by actual data or maths.

And they are good, and thats the correct type of argument to make the point.

What you AREN'T saying is "All ships only win because their opponents are bad with fighters", which is my point. Your stance is backed up by numbers and data.

My point isnt that fighters are bad....it's that saying the above doesn't actually help prove they are good, and is just insulting, unfounded and impossible to back up.

My counter is that all ship lists win because the squadrons lists make mistakes in over extending, or in the way they take on the opposition.

This is why Chancellor87 (Easy) won with 9 Y-Wings and 2 Assault Frigates. This is Mikael Hasselstein has won with 2 VSD and Big Rhymerball's.

Squadrons are good but not invincible. They take a lot of practice to get right and to design your own style.

Sure, but that circular argument will never end. Counterpoint: fighter heavy lists only win because the all ship list made a mistake in not manoeuvring correctly to mitigate fighter attacks on the way to the carriers.

All ship lifsts are good but not invincible. They take a lot of practice to get right and to design your own style.

Therefore based on the same logic as used from the other side, fighter heavy lists only win because their opponents don't know how to use all ship lists properly.

It gets nowhere, and again is purely anecdotal. Once again...fighters are strong. Put putting all ship victories down by saying "well the opponent didn't play well" is foolish. It's bad debating form, it cannot be proven, insults BOTH players, and comes across as the person saying it being an ass.

that's why the Neb Escort > Gsd-2

you're paying points not for the anti-squadron, but for Squadron 2

hopefully, one day some imperial mad man will realize that GSD-1s have Squadron 2 and can issue the relevant command

would really help against the B-wings they keep dashing themselves against

I actually have used Tarkin in VGGG+fighters to issue some squadron token commands off of the Glads... but most of the time, they NEED something else. A Nav, a repair, a conc fire.

do you ever run an Escort Neb for squadrons WITHOUT Yavaris? Didn't think so. Or one that is completely away from Yavaris? nope.

what's this "didn't think so" nonsense? of course I run Escorts without Yavaris; Yavaris is unique!

would slap that **** on everyone if I could, though

the Escort Neb is a solid ship with good long range punch and the ability to Escort your bombers into combat by dicing ties like a blender.

Read read read.

Do you ever run an Escort for squadron activations that has Yavaris no where near it?

That's basically what a Glad's 2 sq is. Its good. But there's no Yavaris title, which is pretty much an auto include if you intend to give sq commands off the Escort.

What I mean is this: Having 2 Nebs, one with Yavaris, next to each other doesn't count for this example. I can see sometimes you need 5 sq commands and having an extra Neb B next to Yavaris is good.... but you're never gonna run a non-Yavaris Neb Escort for sq commands on its own. .. are you?

Personally anyway, Gald's have a much higher damage potential, and tend to be eitehr focus fired (repair) or want conc fire.

There's no reason you can't give sq commands with the glad, its just. usually in the wrong place for that. either deployment in concern to sqs or in relation to where the enemy is.

Either way, a Vic in wave1 serves better as a sq command i think... Though, a Glad is speed3, and could do the first shot quite well, then pass to the Vic.

Maybe we will see it in wave2.

--

Okay, nobody here plays Ties. So... yeah. Also, we're doing pretty good at tanking and blowing up Nebs.

do you ever run an Escort Neb for squadrons WITHOUT Yavaris? Didn't think so. Or one that is completely away from Yavaris? nope.

what's this "didn't think so" nonsense? of course I run Escorts without Yavaris; Yavaris is unique!

would slap that **** on everyone if I could, though

the Escort Neb is a solid ship with good long range punch and the ability to Escort your bombers into combat by dicing ties like a blender.

Read read read.

...

What I mean is this: Having 2 Nebs, one with Yavaris, next to each other doesn't count for this example. I can see sometimes you need 5 sq commands and having an extra Neb B next to Yavaris is good.... but you're never gonna run a non-Yavaris Neb Escort for sq commands on its own. .. are you?

Yes?

there's no reason not to. It's not really that you won't run an Escort without Yavaris, you'll just always have a Yavaris because she's only 5 points. There's almost no reason not to take her if you intend to use squadrons to murder ships.

And yet, I know I personally would never run only one Neb, even if said Neb is Yavaris. Having multiples lets you command more squadrons (especially if you're running a mixed force of Bombers and fighters), makes the negative space between them an absolute death sentence to enemy squadrons, and lets them concentrate firepower on troublesome targets. Nebs naturally work well in multiples.

So yes, you would take a Neb escort just for its Squadron value and anti-squadron. They are a massive boon to any fleet that invests in squadrons, and Yavaris by herself will not be commanding everything

And also no, you wouldn't ever not take one Yavaris because she's insane and insanely economical

Not having perfect evidence for something is NOT the same thing as it being false. Yes, randomly calling a play group poor opposition is rude. However, having watched enough players play poorly with squadrons (or play lots of squadrons like TIE Int without bombers) it's not out of the realm of possibility that a playgroup isn't using squadrons properly. Without seeing full game reports its impossible to tell either way. But having trashed all-ship lists with squadrons DOES mean all-ship lists are not fool-proof.

Our tournament results from the past year are not very reliable either. Even the Gencon results. The field was mostly all-ship lists, the winner said he took all-ship BECAUSE he wasn't very practiced with squadrons, and he didn't face any bomber heavy lists that day. There were also reports of a large number of players saying they were very new players.

So I agree "your opponents are playing well" is not a good statement. It just doesn't rule out that their opponents may not be good at squadrons.

Wait. . . When has there ever been perfect evidence in this game?

Just because A works for me and B does not work for me does not mean A will work for you and B will not. Both A and B could work for you or maybe just B some of the time.

It is about experience of play. This is why I like Armada. It is the Netrunner of wargames

But having trashed all-ship lists with squadrons DOES mean all-ship lists are not fool-proof.

So I agree "your opponents are playing well" is not a good statement. It just doesn't rule out that their opponents may not be good at squadrons.

Totally agree. I've never said all-ship lists are foolproof. In fact, i've stated several times that in Wave 2 they will be weaker.

But the 2nd bit is the important one...it is indeed not a good statement, and it rules nothing out. In the same way that trashing all ship lists doesnt rule out that the opponents may simply be not good at all ship lists.