Hello,

So my little meta is getting more and more fighter intense. I personally like ships. Big ships. Can't deny. I'm not super fond of playing with tons of fighters.

My opponents like to play large numbers of fighters. They usually give off 3 sq commands with Yavaris, and they know to try and place their squadrons so that my stuff will fly near them.

I've had only a little success with a minimal Awing force to slow down their advance. With the Yavaris double tap, any squadrons he takes basically neuters my force... And I don't know how to counter this without simply adding a bajillion squadrons myself...

What have been your best anti-mass-squadron ideas for both sides, Rebel or Imp?

Consider that my opponent is HIGHLY COMPETENT and really good at finding combos. I need a good plan that doesn't rely on opponent stupidity.

to beat squadrons you must have squadrons.

Warlord is solid with H9s for auto damage but if they have gallant haven it does nothing. Ship squadron fire isn't meant to be amazing.

Your options are:

A.) take and learn to play with squadrons

B.) take out their carrier(s) as fast as possible

the biggest draw back to playing squadrons is you have less things that need to die before you are beaten. So you either fight fire with fire or take down the mother ship. In wave1 killing 1 carrier wasn't too difficult even when it was a vic. In wave 2 may see 2 ISDs with Motti acting as your opponents carriers and that may be an issue. Also make sure your objectives don't favor squadrons. Don't take things like superior positions if you don't run squadrons. It will straight lose you the game.

You don't need a bajillion squadrons, just SOME squadrons.

Three TIE fighters can effectively neuter a Yavaris + B-Wing combo if you place well.

For instance, only engage ONE squadron with each of your interceptors, forcing them to take shots on your fighters (and preventing them from focusing fire on any one of them) on the turn where your ship will be in range.

Let your opponent waste his squadron command killing TIE fighters. Once you're that close almost any ship should be able to dispatch a Nebulon B.

If you are going minimal squadrons as a gambit (basically you are ceding those points) then you need to hold those squadrons in reserve until the point where the enemy would be otherwise engaging your ships. For fighting a Yavaris, that means when they are awfully close to you. Best to take Tycho if you are going A-Wings, as he can survive a lot longer than he has any business doing, countering the whole time, with another A-Wing backing him - take your fighter cover in multiples of 2 so you can use them to slow your deployment.

For "Big Guns" on the Rebel side, it is VERY easy to see where they are going to be going, especially if you put them in a line. Try varying your speed and maneuvers so that you can play keep-away from the Yavaris. Try splitting up your ships into a line of 2 and a lone ship, or multiple lone ships and go for a slash with one that is... more expendable than the others. Once you have it's side, you've got the carrier (Yavaris) dead to rights.

If you are going minimal squadrons as a gambit (basically you are ceding those points)

Ceding points?

Hardly.

A pair of squadrons that doesn't destroy anything is still a full deployment, giving you a deployment advantage.

For Imperials, being able to spend 16 points for a deployment isn't half bad. Oh, and they can shoot, too!

You misunderstand, you are ceding the points to the enemy - because while they are going to be destroying those 16 or so points of squadrons, you are expecting that to tie up 50-80 points of enemy squadrons long enough for your 284 pts to go to town on the 200 pts they brought of ships.

That's the definition of a gambit - sacrificing a piece to gain a positional advantage.

You misunderstand, you are ceding the points to the enemy - because while they are going to be destroying those 16 or so points of squadrons, you are expecting that to tie up 50-80 points of enemy squadrons long enough for your 284 pts to go to town on the 200 pts they brought of ships.

That's the definition of a gambit - sacrificing a piece to gain a positional advantage.

I get what you're saying, but even then, I disagree.

If my TIEs die, but are instrumental in preventing one of my ships from going down, and I then proceed to wipe you ships and thus score ALL the points for your fighters anyway... I haven't ceded anything.

I guess I just look at it as an "investment" rather than a "gambit", since I'm gaining both position AND interception for relatively few points.

A gambit would be if taking those fighters may or may not grant me any advantage, but if your opponent brings NO squadrons they gain you position, and if they bring SOME squadrons they gain you interception, so no gambit involved. It's a sound investment of points.

You misunderstand, you are ceding the points to the enemy - because while they are going to be destroying those 16 or so points of squadrons, you are expecting that to tie up 50-80 points of enemy squadrons long enough for your 284 pts to go to town on the 200 pts they brought of ships.

That's the definition of a gambit - sacrificing a piece to gain a positional advantage.

That is the hardest part of playing with squadrons. The gambit. you are at a distinct disadvantage for not having as many ships as your opponent. so finding a way to augment this with proper squadron use is the hardest part. Now taking satellite squadrons that sit near your ships and protect you from enemy ship bombardments should only really cede minimal points (less than 40) its something Core set imperial players are used to doing since that was the easiest way to lose (opponent kills squadrons and runs away to win 7-3)

It also depends on what your opponent is fielding. If its not gallant haven then a warlord VSD should make decent work of enemy squadrons over the course of the game. Even rhymer balls don't want to see it. Gallant haven is a tough nut to crack. With the amount of firepower coming in Wave2 I do not think it will be very prevalent, you will just have bigger fish to fry (Hah)

Awesome ideas. Come up with a 2prong deployment plan!

Also good point about getting the ints to engage only ONE fighter... however, I think that will leave the rest of the bombers to go straight for my ships... which... I'm not sure is a good thing. With a few lucky rolls, that could be serious serious damage.

Okay. I am also moderately well-read about this topic. I do aim to table the squadron heavy opponents. And on games that go well, I literally do. However, this is seriously a gamble: I HAVE to play correctly and better than my opponent to win that way.

I need some more help. Preferably in planning to help get a plan to fight these squadrons.

--

What are you best anti-mass-squadron lists that include modest numbers of squadrons?

Who's the best for minimal fighters that can take down squadrons well?

Tycho just doesn't hit hard enough.

Wedge and Dutch are nice, but not against Yavaris Bs.

Outrider?

I'm considering

Rhymer

Howl

4ties

Rhymer is a 16 point upgrade that lets me get some blue dice on those ships if they don't take squadrons.

You misunderstand, you are ceding the points to the enemy - because while they are going to be destroying those 16 or so points of squadrons, you are expecting that to tie up 50-80 points of enemy squadrons long enough for your 284 pts to go to town on the 200 pts they brought of ships.

That's the definition of a gambit - sacrificing a piece to gain a positional advantage.

That is the hardest part of playing with squadrons. The gambit. you are at a distinct disadvantage for not having as many ships as your opponent. so finding a way to augment this with proper squadron use is the hardest part. Now taking satellite squadrons that sit near your ships and protect you from enemy ship bombardments should only really cede minimal points (less than 40) its something Core set imperial players are used to doing since that was the easiest way to lose (opponent kills squadrons and runs away to win 7-3)

It also depends on what your opponent is fielding. If its not gallant haven then a warlord VSD should make decent work of enemy squadrons over the course of the game. Even rhymer balls don't want to see it. Gallant haven is a tough nut to crack. With the amount of firepower coming in Wave2 I do not think it will be very prevalent, you will just have bigger fish to fry (Hah)

I used, and I've seen people use 2As and Tycho. This dies fast. Like one turn of holding power vs a swarm of fighters before they simply kill my fighters. Sometimes... that's enough time, but it was seriously only barely. So ... Barely isn't good enough vs someone who knows what theyre doing.

I'm tempted to try 3As and tycho next. Or adding someone like Wedge.

I used Soontir 2Tieadv Mauler. But taht works better with Chiraneau, who is expensive. Also, those squadrons are rather useless against ships. blue non-bomber dice. tieadv have black but no bomber, so only .75 hit.

Wedge and Dutch did it for me...

Yavaris can only double-tap two squadrons, three if it has a stored token or Raymus.

With a Pair of Brace tokens each, they do the job of surviving - and Dutch automatically cuts the Yavaris damage by 1/3rd with his ability - target someone who hasn't done anything yet.

Also remember, that Yavaris is only doing its thing when the Squadrons do not have to move... Otherwise, its just a squadron command.

So pick someone who is going to die, and kill them. Engage just them if possible and put what you can into them...

Awesome ideas. Come up with a 2prong deployment plan!

Also good point about getting the ints to engage only ONE fighter... however, I think that will leave the rest of the bombers to go straight for my ships... which... I'm not sure is a good thing. With a few lucky rolls, that could be serious serious damage.

Okay. I am also moderately well-read about this topic. I do aim to table the squadron heavy opponents. And on games that go well, I literally do. However, this is seriously a gamble: I HAVE to play correctly and better than my opponent to win that way.

I need some more help. Preferably in planning to help get a plan to fight these squadrons.

--

What are you best anti-mass-squadron lists that include modest numbers of squadrons?

Who's the best for minimal fighters that can take down squadrons well?

Tycho just doesn't hit hard enough.

Wedge and Dutch are nice, but not against Yavaris Bs.

Outrider?

I'm considering

Rhymer

Howl

4ties

Rhymer is a 16 point upgrade that lets me get some blue dice on those ships if they don't take squadrons.

If you look to win the squadron war then i will start this with a few points.

A.) Flight Controllers never hurts

B.) Expanded Hangar Bays never hurts

C.) you need to issue squadron commands

If you can spare the points make the ties (atleast 2) into Interceptors. 6 dice with FC and howlrunner is nothing to joke about.

My squadron set up at 300pts was Rhymer, Howlrunner, 2 Interceptors, 3 TIE fighers, 1 advanced (protecting my aces for a turn).

The rebels i have much less experience with. tycho and a-wings are missles, they come in alpha and then have counter. What they dont kill outright they may get with counter, especially 3hp TIEs. Tycho can also move to juicier targets. Send in tycho,pew pew, if he lives (x-wing escort) next turn send him into an enemy ace. With pre-measuring staying out of escort range isn't too difficult. Rebel ships also have decent anti squadron fire, and imperials don't have gallant haven, so getting some extra damage early on squadrons may prove beneficial in the late game.

Squadrons are a game within the game. they can not be ignored, otherwise posts like these wouldn't exist, so you need to have a plan. That plan may be running 3 GSDs at your opponents fleet hoping to drop the main carrier, you should only lose one GSD in the trade and then you can start to deal with the less beefier ships. 400pts will change a lot of this as imperials can really efficiently run a double ISD1 motti carrier build. I know that's where I will be starting my 400pt testing.

I don't think of blue fighter dice as worthless. It's still a potential 1 hit that a ship needs to deal with (50% chance). You only have so many ways to handle 1 hit shots, and if you're not activating them, a ship's already likely used some/all of its defensive tokens.

Before rogue bombers you could just ignore squadrons with 3 assault frigates and focus on killing ships. Might as well get used to it now though because we're almost to the arrival of Wave 2.

I don't think of blue fighter dice as worthless. It's still a potential 1 hit that a ship needs to deal with (50% chance). You only have so many ways to handle 1 hit shots, and if you're not activating them, a ship's already likely used some/all of its defensive tokens.

truth

the squadron damage isn't really their to finish a ship off, sometimes it does. It is their to lower shields. the 50% damage means that 10 fighters coming in will average around 5 damage, 1 being rhymer, another an advanced so potentially 6 damage. thats enough to drop 2 adjacent zones so your opponent can not use their redirects. Your squadrons go before your ships with a squadron command so in theory you need 1 accuracy to stop an evade or brace (its why i love sw-7 ion batts). Now your ship can do some damage on that one hull zone and potentially bust through the shields. 10 squadrons is 2 ships activating so you in theory will have 2 goes at it. when really your opponent will lose shields to your first ships salvo when they use the redirect and now your second ship goes and your squadrons have targets with no shield zones, or can drop the last few remaining shields for your second ship.

Before rogue bombers you could just ignore squadrons with 3 assault frigates and focus on killing ships. Might as well get used to it now though because we're almost to the arrival of Wave 2.

Ackbar may be enough to tilt the scales where you may get away with 3-4 frigates and minimal satellite squadrons. I havn't faced him yet and he honestly scares the bahjesus out of me.

Before rogue bombers you could just ignore squadrons with 3 assault frigates and focus on killing ships. Might as well get used to it now though because we're almost to the arrival of Wave 2.

Your spot on with this, if you fly fast the squads can't hit you, focus on the ships as there that much less points your dealing with.

Awesome ideas. Come up with a 2prong deployment plan!

Also good point about getting the ints to engage only ONE fighter... however, I think that will leave the rest of the bombers to go straight for my ships... which... I'm not sure is a good thing. With a few lucky rolls, that could be serious serious damage.

Okay. I am also moderately well-read about this topic. I do aim to table the squadron heavy opponents. And on games that go well, I literally do. However, this is seriously a gamble: I HAVE to play correctly and better than my opponent to win that way.

I need some more help. Preferably in planning to help get a plan to fight these squadrons.

--

What are you best anti-mass-squadron lists that include modest numbers of squadrons?

Who's the best for minimal fighters that can take down squadrons well?

Tycho just doesn't hit hard enough.

Wedge and Dutch are nice, but not against Yavaris Bs.

Outrider?

I'm considering

Rhymer

Howl

4ties

Rhymer is a 16 point upgrade that lets me get some blue dice on those ships if they don't take squadrons.

If you look to win the squadron war then i will start this with a few points.

A.) Flight Controllers never hurts

B.) Expanded Hangar Bays never hurts

C.) you need to issue squadron commands

If you can spare the points make the ties (atleast 2) into Interceptors. 6 dice with FC and howlrunner is nothing to joke about.

My squadron set up at 300pts was Rhymer, Howlrunner, 2 Interceptors, 3 TIE fighers, 1 advanced (protecting my aces for a turn).

The rebels i have much less experience with. tycho and a-wings are missles, they come in alpha and then have counter. What they dont kill outright they may get with counter, especially 3hp TIEs. Tycho can also move to juicier targets. Send in tycho,pew pew, if he lives (x-wing escort) next turn send him into an enemy ace. With pre-measuring staying out of escort range isn't too difficult. Rebel ships also have decent anti squadron fire, and imperials don't have gallant haven, so getting some extra damage early on squadrons may prove beneficial in the late game.

Squadrons are a game within the game. they can not be ignored, otherwise posts like these wouldn't exist, so you need to have a plan. That plan may be running 3 GSDs at your opponents fleet hoping to drop the main carrier, you should only lose one GSD in the trade and then you can start to deal with the less beefier ships. 400pts will change a lot of this as imperials can really efficiently run a double ISD1 motti carrier build. I know that's where I will be starting my 400pt testing.

Anyone know... if you run in with 3 GSDs into a heavy rebel squadron... do you really only trade 1 GSD? I feel like youre' going to trade two.

I know Yavaris is standing attack only. So, thus if you move in with Glads, you're giving them that Yavaris capability.

If their carrier is positioned in between their fleet, you're probably also taking damge from everything else. I feel like you're going to trade hard. =/

Before rogue bombers you could just ignore squadrons with 3 assault frigates and focus on killing ships. Might as well get used to it now though because we're almost to the arrival of Wave 2.

Ackbar may be enough to tilt the scales where you may get away with 3-4 frigates and minimal satellite squadrons. I havn't faced him yet and he honestly scares the bahjesus out of me.

Ackbar is broken IMHO, you should be scared of him. The one thing with wave 2 is there are a lot of ships with 2 anti-squadron dice. Hell Glad IIs have them now on the Imperial side. I will probably play with some squadrons but I am not that worried about them. I have been a big advocate of squadrons from day one mainly because I love playing them. They have been and will still be a gambit in just about any build. The 5-6 rogue bomber squadrons are what you need to be afraid of but you wont see that too often since that means people need to buy 5-6 squadron packs.

Before rogue bombers you could just ignore squadrons with 3 assault frigates and focus on killing ships. Might as well get used to it now though because we're almost to the arrival of Wave 2.

Ackbar may be enough to tilt the scales where you may get away with 3-4 frigates and minimal satellite squadrons. I havn't faced him yet and he honestly scares the bahjesus out of me.

Ackbar is broken IMHO, you should be scared of him. The one thing with wave 2 is there are a lot of ships with 2 anti-squadron dice. Hell Glad IIs have them now on the Imperial side. I will probably play with some squadrons but I am not that worried about them. I have been a big advocate of squadrons from day one mainly because I love playing them. They have been and will still be a gambit in just about any build. The 5-6 rogue bomber squadrons are what you need to be afraid of but you wont see that too often since that means people need to buy 5-6 squadron packs.

one of the locals ran 3 GSDs with the 2 anti squadron dice. my squadrons ripped him apart when i focused one GSD at a time in pair with good firing solutions. the 2 anti squadron dice still isnt enough. and when he is shooting my squadrons he isnt shooting my ships which is a ok for me. the rebel ship to ship dice are iffy on the nebs and vettes so i can see trying to trounce squadrons first.

Some ships swing the squadron war so wildly that you don't need to bring many to assert dominance

Gallant Haven is THE epitome of this, allowing Luke + Wedge + Dutch to routine beat off larger numbers of 6 dice interceptors while barely breaking a sweat

There's room enough @ 300 for paragon + haven + aces + cr-90a under Garm

Dealing with fighters is different vs Imperials and Rebels.

Vs Imperials, they have so few HP, that 2 ships (2 dice + 2 dice) can potentially devastate an entire force in a turn, with the exception of bombers. For which a few fighters can pin them down.

Vs Rebels, you need fighters. I tend to do a combo when dealing with them. Start a furball damage most of their fighters, and have my ship fire into that to finish them off, or hurt those that survive.

Always try to tie up the fighters before you engage ship to ship, otherwise even an 8 pt TIE has a 50/50 shot of doing damage to you, and there can be a LOT of those. That goes for Imperial or Rebels. (Though the exception is Bombers, keep them out of the fight. Possibly except a B-Wing locking up Rhymer's flying circus.)

Firstly, I can attest as can most people: Just taking tons of AA 2dice ships like the Glad2 is NOT enough at all. "at all" being the key phrase there. **** AA guns do like 1 point of damage.

2 How has gallant haven worked for all of you? Distance 1 of the ship is really darn small. It seems like thats a squad you want to shove the whole ship PLUS the fighters down their throat. Once past that. its gonna be way too hard to get any squadrons within that dis1 bubble.

Ic ould see this being good actually in a fighter heavy sq. Gallant, Yavaris, Salvation for damage, a corvette. And rush the opponent and dare them to come into range of double tapping Bwings.

You don't take AAA to shoot down squadrons alone. You take it to back up your own squadrons. A couple of 2-blue capitals supporting your fighters can really make the difference over a round or two of shooting. But BIG caveat: will they have the opportunity to fire those AAA shots or will they be busy shooting at enemy ships? In my experience it's often the latter.

Haven works like this:

"Oh, you want to bum-rush my poor frigate with bombers? Well tough ****, you gotta get through these aces."

and

"Oh, you want to get through these aces? Well tough ****, you need to deal 3 damage before you can even deal 1!"

it's a roving shield (fortress of "nope!") to put between you and anything you don't want near you