So, Now that tlt is a thing, seemingly everywhere, what ship(s) are now unusable or the biggest losers of this swing?

Fat Han jumps out at me, but that is an obvious choice. Are Corran Horn's days numbered too?

What else?

Gunner Vader Chirneau is literally the easiest to kill now.

also DIDNT YOU SEE THE THING ABOUT A PETITION ABOUT A THING TO CAPITALIZE TLT's

TLT's should be capitalized, because immature minds and quick reading eyes can see other things.

Sadly, the Warden K

That thing has one goal in life: shove conner nets down fat ship's/ace dejour's throat.

It doesn't have the firepower or efficiency to compete with any generic, Much less tlts

If palp and friends get too popular, though, seek the majestic drunk albatross

That's really it, though. Even Bwings thoroughly slap TLTs around in a straight slugfest, so good play determines victory there

So, Now that tlt is a thing, seemingly everywhere, what ship(s) are now unusable or the biggest losers of this swing?

Fat Han jumps out at me, but that is an obvious choice. Are Corran Horn's days numbered too?

What else?

I've played TLT lists twice now with Dash/Corran and had wins on both.

First was 200-0 and second was a modified win while losing Corran due to a poor calculation of movement on my part.

I think how you fly the ships makes a big difference in the ability to win.

Gunner Vader Chirneau is literally the easiest to kill now.

also DIDNT YOU SEE THE THING ABOUT A PETITION ABOUT A THING TO CAPITALIZE TLT's

TLT's should be capitalized, because immature minds and quick reading eyes can see other things.

Are you saying you don't like little tlts? I don't care if they are big or little. tlts are tlts.

It is threads like that this that keep perpetuating the myth that TLTs are both dominant and pervasive, when neither of these things are entirely true. There are more counters (good play being the most important) to TLTs than there are lists that they supposedly " hard counter". Anyone who believes that they do 8 automatic damage a turn (even to a Decimator) has not played them.

Sure you have to account for how to beat them, but they are far from unbeatable. They suffer from negative feedback, the more players who play 4 TlLTs the worse the list becomes because then you have more coin flip match ups. It has largely been the same issue with brobots, if brobots in you area are pervasive then you have to build your brobots to beat other brobots if you want a chance to win a tournament with them (hence VI). The same holds true for TLTs in that if you want to win the mirror match you need an edge, typically this involves changing out one of the ships for something different, see Jake with 3 TLTs for example.

actually, because of tlts the meta is far more diverse than before, so we have fewer losers - we have winners, if you so will.

tlts are hard counters for a few specific things, they in turn have an abundance of counters.

so in reality, IMO at least, we all should be grateful they are here, now instead of playing that "thing X is broken/OP, please fix asap"-fiddle over and over again.

play them, play against them, re-evaluate things, cool down.

(that goes to so many things going on here, atm; tlts, palp, damage deck.. it's really no fun to read the board the last few days, people. cool down, and try having fun for a change. it is a game, first and foremost, and games are -supposed- to be fun..)

It is threads like that this that keep perpetuating the myth that TLTs are both dominant and pervasive, when neither of these things are entirely true...

Sure you have to account for how to beat them, but they are far from unbeatable.

I don't think anyone is saying 4xTLTs is unbeatable, but we shouldn't discount how well it's doing and how pervasive it is. If you look at List Juggler stats, 4xTLT has a ~70% win rate in 60 competitive matches.

And these are the results for Nationals elimination rounds:

To answer OP's question - I think B-wings really took a hit from even the possiblity of unhinged TLT spam. Low agility is one thing, but couple that with their lack of speed and you're firing 3 reds vs 2 greens from distance with little hope to get into that donut hole. Granted, strategic planning and maneuvering can help you, but it's definitely an uphill battle from turn 1.

tlts are

Gunner Vader Chirneau is literally the easiest to kill now.

also DIDNT YOU SEE THE THING ABOUT A PETITION ABOUT A THING TO CAPITALIZE TLT's

TLT's should be capitalized, because immature minds and quick reading eyes can see other things.

Are you saying you don't like little tlts? I don't care if they are big or little. tlts are tlts.

I'm trying to figure out the best pair of tlts for Rebels. Y-Wing or HWK-290? Oh well, either way, a pair of tlts is a pair of tlts. I just need to know where to find the best tlts.

The Hound's Tooth. I don't think a ship has ever been so useless on its release as this one. I'm sure there's a good ship buried somewhere in its design, but oh boy does it get munched by tlts. I just had Bossk take 8 damage in two turns from two of them. Then they killed the pup in a single turn.

In general I would say two agility ships took the hardest hit though. They're stated such that they should be able to evade some damage, and often times they don't get to do it against tlts.

Anyone who believes that they do 8 automatic damage a turn (even to a Decimator) has not played them.

That's pretty much been my experience. They crap out tons of damage in a wide area of engagement. Then again I think 4 tlts is a silly list. The real ones take two and give them the ability to modify all of their shots, backing up a large ship or ace. Then your green dice have to roll perfectly three times to survive, and that's if you have three agility.

Falcons. Dash. Corran. Ion warthogs.

They can all still win tournies. Just a harder climb now.

Han, Corran, anything with less than 4 or 8 HP at lower PS than TLTs, decimators, Bwings Vs. Unhinged TLTs...

But TLT's are not that bad to fly against. They are just really good at the 1 thing they do. If you can't beat that 1 thing...

TLT'S punish low agility but as I fly ties I find I can go full turns taking no damage.

Can they be annoying yes absolutely are they broken I don't think so but they are so new it's too soon to call.

But I like a broader meta.

few ships are truly obselete now. Here's how I see how different Archetypes beat TLTs;

Fat Turrets: Control the engagement range. Approach such that your opponent has to either clump his ships together, allowing you to get in 2-3 donut holes at once, or spread out so much that you're only taking fire from one or two of them while you concentrate your fire on a single ship.

Aces: See Above. Add autothrusters if possible.

Swarms: Outjoust.

Fragile 3-ship jousts (Biggs+Wedge+Poe/Luke): Kill a TLT carrier in the first round of shooting (this is critical). Keep Every ship (Including Biggs) alive as long as possible while systematically eliminating each ship.

Conversely, tlt-heavy lists need to focus fire and force enemies to split fire.

Biggest loser is the BTL-A4 title.

Not really

ICT with btl-a4 is just as scary as ever

And you can get a pair with r4 and a pair oh tlt with unhinged (or vice versa)

Literalbot is not amused.

The sad sad Syck, once again. What's the use of using the Title in this meta when they just become a priority target and blasted to smithereens? And please don't waste your time trying to argue that 3 Green dice will do **** to help stay alive. You think 2 points could do something better than grant this flying coffin the PRIVILEGE of carrying already overpriced ordinance?

An argument can be made that the biggest losers are the designers but they already got my money.

Sadly, the Warden K

That thing has one goal in life: shove conner nets down fat ship's/ace dejour's throat.

It doesn't have the firepower or efficiency to compete with any generic, Much less tlts

If palp and friends get too popular, though, seek the majestic drunk albatross

That's really it, though. Even Bwings thoroughly slap TLTs around in a straight slugfest, so good play determines victory there

My K-Wings from now on will be referred to as "drunken albatross".

B wings took it the worst out of anything for reasons already posted.

The Syck is hit pretty hard, as even with 3 Agility it's fragile to repeated shots and once you add in the Heavy Syck title and any weapons it's costing enough to be a potential priority target.

Xizor is also suffering, as his pilot ability doesn't offer him any protection. A four TLT list is a very bad match up for Xizor...

Xizor's ship, on the other hand, is great TLT protection. Boost/Barrel Roll to thread the needle, AGI 3 with autothrusters to resist damage, and even Illicit and System options to further protect him if needed.

I like the state of the game as it is now, because the gaming environment is more diverse than ever.

Almost every ship can be useful. Last time i was on tournament every list that was there was different. We had ther 4xTLT Y-Wings, We had Palpamobile with 2 aces, we had Brobots, we had Z-95 swarm, and i was second with Kihraz, YV-666 and one Y-Wing, one ship that was not even mentioned here, and one stated as bad. And it is not true. (By the way the palpamobile ended last, and TLT Y-wings in the middle.)

The game is now big and versatile enough that there are so many options, creative player can always create good list. I think that Copy Paste of internet builds is bane of creativity, and most games suffer from that.

When everyone lives by hype that TLT rules, then game suffers from that, There is no single best build, there are only more played lists, and if you stay away from that hype wave you can only benefit from that.

I'm not saying that every combination work together, but with every wave there is more usefull combinations, and it is not that difficult to combine few of them into a working list. Also not every player can utilize all aspects of the game. Some are better at manuevering, some are better at planing, soem are better with action economy and some can play attrition game well. With that in mind i need to create list that suits my playstyle. And that is why some ship can be horrible for some players, and perfect for others. Do not let yourself to be forced to use stuff you don't like, or doesn't know how to use.

Xizor's ship, on the other hand, is great TLT protection. Boost/Barrel Roll to thread the needle, AGI 3 with autothrusters to resist damage, and even Illicit and System options to further protect him if needed.

Oh, absolutely! The StarViper is looking pretty solid against TLT Y-Wings, and Guri in particular. (PS 5 and getting added bonuses for being in Range 1 makes her a very solid choice against most multiple TLT lists.) It's just a shame that Xizor's ability is negated by them, as he's my preferred StarViper pilot.

Yes, his ability doesn't work, but you won't just face pure quad TLTs when you enter a tournament, so that shouldn't be too bad, especially since his ship is capable of withstanding them on its own.