Just wonder what others thoughts are on rhymer.

But for a extra 7 points (9 to 16) rhymer gets the ability to change all sqaudron anti ship range from 1 to medium range. In effect he triples the range. Which means his black dice with crits work at medium. Not counting the tie bombers amazing ability to be pair with a title card that lets it move as fast ad a interceptor or a wing.

Dutch for 6 points only give him the ability to activate a dmg enemy squadron.

The named b wings only lets him reroll his 1 blue and 1 black if shields are down

Luke for 8 points ignore shield for himself only

Wedge for 6 points gets 2 extra blue dice against activated sqaudrons

Mithral for 8 points dmg every foe sqaudron for 1 point when he lands

within range.

Howlrunner at 9 extra pts give other sqaudrons 1 extra dice plus they can reroll their swarm still

Fel causes auto dmg but only if you dont attack him

So should rhymer be toned down. My thoughts is he only effects bombers, range is changed to close vs medium. As with his current ability he could move 5 with corruptor and be in range of a ship that moved 3.

Really rhymer ability would of made a better fit on yhe named b wing pilot. If they stated he can allow other bwings at range 1 to fire anti ship ay medium given how slow b wings are

Honestly if Rhymer was a Rebel pilot a Yavaris+Xs+Bs combo would be totally broken. Rhymer let bombers focus on bombing, like Howlrunner let swarms focus on swarming. It's just the Empire fighters strategy: power in numbers.

What Stops Rhymer being completely and utterly overpowering is the fact that, for the most part, the Imperials have (relative) crap when it comes to Anti-Ship firepower on their Squadrons at this point in time.

Most of the time, its either a Single Black, or its a Blue from something non bomber-y...

That, and he gets locked down like anyone else. A single Enemy Squadron (other than a Y-Wing) at Range 1, and the Bombers have to, instead, throw Blue-Blue Anti-Squadron dice at them instead of using that Bomber Range, buying time for the ship to maneuver away - or lend its Anti-Squadron Firepower against the closely packed ball.

Plus, you're not quite right on some things...

Keyan, the named B-Wing pilot, has a Black-Black, not a Blue-Black. And 4 Damage including a Crit is nothing to laugh at, especially when the rebels have Yavaris to make him do it TWICE.

Same as Luke. Suddenly you have 2 Crits through shields - one of which might end up being 2 damage or even dropping shields!

Mauler Mithal only works when engageing, so its possible to hide from him - in Debris or Asteroids, which turns him into an (almost) Double Pointed TIE fighter.

Howlrunner certainly is useful when you're wanting to clean up Squadrons, but once the squadrons are gone, she's still only adding a single Blue without Bomber... Plus she only synergises with TIE Fighters and Interceptors - those TIEs which only have 3 Health before they die...

If you were to transfer the Rhymer ability somehow to the Rebels, you would break the game, I feel... Because so much of the Rebels Bombing Capability is already useful, and Rhymer would make it more so.

He works as intended. W/o Rhymer bombers are poor, with him they perform quite well, but not more than that.

short answer: **** no

Rhymer is the only imperial means of having convincing long range firepower

taken in a vacuum, he's only as overpowered as any uncontested bomber (which is very, because some fool thought running no-squadron was a good idea)

outside that vacuum, he has a bevy of immediate weakness (still crap anti-squadron, heavy, only 1 black die anti-ship; detests being engaged which can be solved by investing points to support him at the not-insignificant cost of 10+ points)

Or you could send tycho, or an awing, or a tie fighter and negate the whole thing. Rhymer is fine because you pay for rhymer, and sub par anti fighter squadrons to go with him. Or in wave two very expensive firesprays, he's as in line as yavaris b wings are to game balance

So should rhymer be toned down. My thoughts is he only effects bombers, range is changed to close vs medium. As with his current ability he could move 5 with corruptor and be in range of a ship that moved 3.

Really rhymer ability would of made a better fit on yhe named b wing pilot. If they stated he can allow other bwings at range 1 to fire anti ship ay medium given how slow b wings are

My thought is that Rhymer is the Empire answer to Gallant Haven. Almost every time I see Gallant Haven on the field the fighters hang out right next to it so that my ships can not do any damage, my fighters can barely do any. But if I have Rhymer then now need to break and attack. They then tie up my bombers keeping them form shooting his ships, and my fighters can attack his fighters with out having so much damage just not happen.

Even a Rhymer+Yavaris+Xs+Bs combo wouldn't be broken.

Just take squadrens.

Some folk seem to have missed the whole design theory behind Imperial and Rebel W1 squadrons.

Rebel aces are more like aces. Individualistic squadrons with powerful abilities that can handle themselves for the most part with high HP, lots of bomber abilities, and good dice. Luke? Fine on his own. Keyan? Fine on his own. Tycho? Wonderful on his own.

Imperial aces (and squadrons in general) are more synergistic. Individually notably weaker, but in a group their abilities play off one another. It's the very nature of swarm, an ability that you may notice the Rebels simply don't have. Howlrunner? Enhances nearby TIEs. Mithel? Deals a lot of damage, sure, but without other squadrons to capitalize on it, pointless.

Vader is probably the *least* synergistic and most damage-oriented, but even then all he is is a good escort and decent damage dealer. Again pointless without additional support.

Our bombers are trash with the notable exception of being fast and fairly tough. Rhymer, just like pretty much every other Imperial ace, is designed to increase their utility.

You may even notice that this paradigm was flipped on its side for the R&V set, with Rebels gaining some more support-based ships while the Imperials got some more powerful standalone pilots.

TL;DR: No, he's not.

My thought is that Rhymer is the Empire answer to Gallant Haven. Almost every time I see Gallant Haven on the field the fighters hang out right next to it so that my ships can not do any damage, my fighters can barely do any. But if I have Rhymer then now need to break and attack. They then tie up my bombers keeping them form shooting his ships, and my fighters can attack his fighters with out having so much damage just not happen.

Nailed it and its why I won't leave him with out him.

Rhymer is fine, and if you think Rhymer + Bombers is bad, at least their squadron firepower is bad. If they take corrupter and the officer and hangar bays they are in it for a lot of points.

Honestly Rhymer feels much better in a howlrunner swarm. Great dogfighting and can still plink and harass your ships if left unchecked.

Simply put, if you don't take squadrons you can not complain. If you do, then you need to find a way to kill him, if you kill him in the all bomb build your opponent has wasted a lot of points that really hinge on 1 squadron stand.

Its really Chiraneau that makes Rhymer so effective. Being able to break engagement and move to attack position is the pillar on which the Rhymer ball thrives.

Gotta take down the carrier ASAP.

the overall design astectic of the faction's respective bombers seems to go as such

Rebels: "Gee, sure would be nice if we could do any sort of scary damage instead of running away from Star Destroyers with our tails between our legs"

hence, Yavaris B-wings

Imperials: "Gee, sure would be nice if we could actually compete with those wascally webels at long range so they couldn't just broadside us to kingdom come"

hence, Rhymer and/or Corrupter

Its really Chiraneau that makes Rhymer so effective. Being able to break engagement and move to attack position is the pillar on which the Rhymer ball thrives.

Gotta take down the carrier ASAP.

At ten points and limiting speed, Chiraneu can bite the big one now that I have a Jumpmaster 5K.

I've been running bomber-centric Imperial lists for months and while I like Corrupter, I think Chirpy is FAR too expensive for how limited his ability is, particularly now that we have Intel.

Maybe if you'd rather squeeze in another bomber rather than providing Intel cover, but the thing is that Intel cover can move with your bombers and let them fire even when engaged.

He is great - he pretty much ensures all the Imperial Bombers are within 1 of him, 2 squadrons and you should have them all engaged.

I'd too actually rather have a jumpmaster

it's more expensive and less flexible (not counting Dengar, who is a lot more expensive but comes with many other benefits), but it doesn't make the carrier an even more appealing target

that, and I've never had much problem with being gummed up by squadrons as much as just dying to them (if there are any present).

you can trade your VSD-2 + 3 points for a Chiraneau Corrupter, but I haven't seen the appeal of it yet. Maybe it's the imperial version of haven? (a tool to swing squadron v squadron action so wildly in your favor that you don't need to bother investing much for squadron superiority; only instead of outfighting enemy squadrons you just ignore them completely)

I'd too actually rather have a jumpmaster

it's more expensive and less flexible (not counting Dengar, who is a lot more expensive but comes with many other benefits), but it doesn't make the carrier an even more appealing target

that, and I've never had much problem with being gummed up by squadrons as much as just dying to them (if there are any present).

you can trade your VSD-2 + 3 points for a Chiraneau Corrupter, but I haven't seen the appeal of it yet. Maybe it's the imperial version of haven? (a tool to swing squadron v squadron action so wildly in your favor that you don't need to bother investing much for squadron superiority; only instead of outfighting enemy squadrons you just ignore them completely)

The Wave 2 Corrupter is going to be used more as a method of giving generic Firesprays a speed boost early in the match than anything else, I suspect.

Speaking as a Rebel:

I don't think he's totally broken or anything, but what's frustrating is he's essentially an auto-include. He's one of those upgrades that you pretty much HAVE to have if you want to make your bomber list really pop. I've read some interesting thoughts that anything that's an Auto-include is essentially OP, so food for thought?

TL;DR - Not broken, but I'm sick of seeing him.

Speaking as a Rebel:

I don't think he's totally broken or anything, but what's frustrating is he's essentially an auto-include. He's one of those upgrades that you pretty much HAVE to have if you want to make your bomber list really pop. I've read some interesting thoughts that anything that's an Auto-include is essentially OP, so food for thought?

TL;DR - Not broken, but I'm sick of seeing him.

This is only because people don't have Boosted Comms or Raiders available yet.

A Raider with Expanded Hangars and two generic bombers as escort can really drop some pain, no Rhymer required.

Speaking as a Rebel:

I don't think he's totally broken or anything, but what's frustrating is he's essentially an auto-include. He's one of those upgrades that you pretty much HAVE to have if you want to make your bomber list really pop. I've read some interesting thoughts that anything that's an Auto-include is essentially OP, so food for thought?

TL;DR - Not broken, but I'm sick of seeing him.

See, I would say "auto-include" when it comes to wanting to run an Imperial fleet with a significant TIE Bomber presence. He's a "worth considering" for just adding to a TIE Fighter blob so you can hedge your bets against your enemy showing up with no squadrons at all (by allowing the TIE Fighters to shower enemy ships with blue dice without requiring consistent squadron commands). He's basically junk on his own without squadrons to support, though.

This is only because people don't have Boosted Comms or Raiders available yet.

A Raider with Expanded Hangars and two generic bombers as escort can really drop some pain, no Rhymer required.

I'm going to be very interested in the fleet building space opened up by all of the wave 2 releases and I'm curious as to if pocket carrier Raiders can really achieve that. In theory, yes. I'd definitely like to give it a try for myself and see how it works for others.

honestly, I think just having Firesprays means we'll be seeing much less of Rhymer

he just seems excessive when combined with the threat range already available to Rogue, and he actively works against the flexibility provided

basically, Rhymer + normal squadrons = yes; Rhymer + sprays = redundant

Firesprays should provide a nice alternative

Not broken, but clearly underpriced for how much of a game changer he is.

Rhymer is an automatic inclusion for almost any squadron-heavy imperial fleet. I would also include him if he cost more -he changes the way the squadrons function so much that with an escort and Intel in the game I'd probably pay up to 22pts and still think he would be an auto include.

Extra antisquadron die and 2 braces are worth about 3 pts to a squadron.

His ability is remarkable and worth more than the 3 to 6 pts premium paid.

My conclusion: underpriced.

My recommendation: if taking imperial squadrons, always take him

He is great - he pretty much ensures all the Imperial Bombers are within 1 of him, 2 squadrons and you should have them all engaged.

Yep, a few Awings and Rhymer is neutered.

Unless you Chirpy him and three friends.

But that means Chirpy is close and needs to die.

So, then you.... Brain implodes from to much RPS .....

It all comes down to how well you build and then play Rhymer. And how well your opponent builds and plays his defences. That would be what they call "Strategy"

Hence, not broken

Broken implies you can't do **** about it, strategy be damned

honestly, I think just having Firesprays means we'll be seeing much less of Rhymer

he just seems excessive when combined with the threat range already available to Rogue, and he actively works against the flexibility provided

basically, Rhymer + normal squadrons = yes; Rhymer + sprays = redundant

Firesprays should provide a nice alternative

Given the Firespray has a palty speed 3, I think Rhymer is still going to be just as useful to make sure those rogue movements don't fall short of their target.