I'm going to bow out, because I am very terrible at explaining my thought process.

I suppose it's a matter of interpretation; I'm thinking of how the fiction regarded them, which is not competent, self-sufficient individuals, but as inexperienced and way in over their heads.

I am not viewing them as starting level PC, so an actual starting level PC that grew up in their same circumstances, who would be a little older and regarded as truly field and battle ready, would begin with a lightsaber. That's how I look at it, so that's why I asked. Sorry for rustling everybody's feathers.

You are assuming Knight level PCs are "competent, self sufficent indifiduals."

Here's a challange for you. Build a knight level PC. You MUST buy FR2. You must have at least 1 rank of reflect (usually meaning a second tree, unless you're Protecter or Nimian Diciple) and should have a rank of dicipline and lore. And you need the basic powers for move, influence, enhance and sence, though mentor drops the price to 5 xp each.

After getting all that and spending the remaining XP to taste, are you REALLY any more competent and self sufficent than a starting character? Or do you just have more talents and powers, without any upgrades or actual skill backing it?

I wonder why FFG appears to have made it so hard to actually play Jedi. And when I say play Jedi I don't mean video game stuff or things like Battle Meditation on 50 troops; I mean the stuff Jedi do in the prequel movies.

Still, a properly Knight level Jedi character ought to be competent enough, more so than Luke was in ROTJ. A Force Rating of 2 should mean better/stronger force powers, while 2 ranks in reflect, at least 1 in Block and a couple of talents in a Lightsaber form tree like Ataru or Soresu ought to make for a competent Jedi character. Due to the fact that Lightsabers and Force Powers have limited range and effects in combat, such a character would not overshadow other combat built PCs like a Hired Gun or even a Smuggler with a good blaster.

Keep in mind that at 25 xp a sesion, Knight level play is "just" skipping the first 6 adventures.

I made an Old Repbulic/Mandolarian war campaign in which I have my group that had finished a previous campaign a full 500 points to make a character. No stats over 5. I said they could make a Jedi at 500 but no credits to speak of just a cloak and saber, or 300 point merc/BH with 10,000 credits to spend.

Now, this might sound crazy, but they were fighting Mandos. I counted the soldiers as minions but with stats higher than Stormies. They quickly learned that thier high priced force move could deal heavy dmg, to one of 10. The numbers game kept them scared mixed with Basaliks which have 1 point of armour to negate the lightsaber's Priece 10.

With Clone Wars you could use massive droid groups and heavily armoured nemesi to mess with your player's.

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but I'm curious, are the rules provided for Force Users in Force and Destiny sufficient for running an Old Republic / Prequel campaign?

Yup - I've been running an KotOR game for about a year or so now, no problem. The biggest suggestion? Don't worry about the stats. You need a sith fighter? Just re-skin a TIE and call it good. Facing a squad of Sith Troopers? Stormtroopers will do just fine.

Will simply assigning additional XP and Force Rating be enough to replicate an Old Republic Jedi?

No matter the setting or game engine, there will always a disconnect between concept and starting character - you just have to learn to accept that your Jedi will suck for the first 3 or 4 game until you get some points under their belt. Thing is - everyone is in the same boat, your tough as nails gunslinger will suck, your "She canna take any more capen!" engineer will suck, and your awesome diplomat will suck.

Don't worry about loading up the players with experience. It will balance out on it's own soon enough.

I wonder why FFG appears to have made it so hard to actually play Jedi. And when I say play Jedi I don't mean video game stuff or things like Battle Meditation on 50 troops; I mean the stuff Jedi do in the prequel movies.

Still, a properly Knight level Jedi character ought to be competent enough, more so than Luke was in ROTJ. A Force Rating of 2 should mean better/stronger force powers, while 2 ranks in reflect, at least 1 in Block and a couple of talents in a Lightsaber form tree like Ataru or Soresu ought to make for a competent Jedi character. Due to the fact that Lightsabers and Force Powers have limited range and effects in combat, such a character would not overshadow other combat built PCs like a Hired Gun or even a Smuggler with a good blaster.

Well to be fair, the Jedi in the prequels were all very experienced. Anakin had been training for ten years by Episode II, while Obi-Wan had been going for a lot longer than that. By Episode III they've all gone through three years of war. The xp cost of that would be a lot higher than 150. Realistically, a Knight-level character for a Jedi is more like a Padawan. I'd call 300xp Knight, 450xp Master and 600xp Grand Master (if any campaign goes on that long without anybody going mad or the GM getting sick of it). For a non-Jedi of course, you're the most battle-hardened, best-equipped, badassest muggle in the galaxy if you go Knight-level.

I'd call 300xp Knight, 450xp Master and 600xp Grand Master (if any campaign goes on that long without anybody going mad or the GM getting sick of it).

600 points is long? At 600 points, we're just getting our characters where we want them to be! We just hit 675-ish last night and the subject of the end of the game came up. EVERY one, to the man, said they had lots and lots of story left to tell and room to grow on their characters.

Running a game that wraps up before that point? That's MADNESS!

Well I only play in my school club (or online: see my signature for some shamelessly-plugged PbP games), where all campaigns generally wrap up before we've gotten very far at all (except for the teacher's grand D&D campaign, which to my knowledge he's had going on-and-off for four years with a completely different set of characters from where it started) so 600xp is the realm of fantasy for me!

600 points is long? At 600 points, we're just getting our characters where we want them to be! We just hit 675-ish last night and the subject of the end of the game came up. EVERY one, to the man, said they had lots and lots of story left to tell and room to grow on their characters.

Running a game that wraps up before that point? That's MADNESS!

Indeed. The PCs in my EotE game are up to 180 XPs and have a long way to go yet before the campaign ends. I imagine they will be at 800ish XPs if we go the distance.

I'd call 300xp Knight, 450xp Master and 600xp Grand Master (if any campaign goes on that long without anybody going mad or the GM getting sick of it).

600 points is long? At 600 points, we're just getting our characters where we want them to be! We just hit 675-ish last night and the subject of the end of the game came up. EVERY one, to the man, said they had lots and lots of story left to tell and room to grow on their characters.

Running a game that wraps up before that point? That's MADNESS!

Right on!!!

Started my players at 300xp and they just reached 1000xp. Have a lot more story. One players wants to dye in a blaze of glory but the others want to kill Vadar and have luke stay a farmer

I wonder why FFG appears to have made it so hard to actually play Jedi. And when I say play Jedi I don't mean video game stuff or things like Battle Meditation on 50 troops; I mean the stuff Jedi do in the prequel movies.

Still, a properly Knight level Jedi character ought to be competent enough, more so than Luke was in ROTJ. A Force Rating of 2 should mean better/stronger force powers, while 2 ranks in reflect, at least 1 in Block and a couple of talents in a Lightsaber form tree like Ataru or Soresu ought to make for a competent Jedi character. Due to the fact that Lightsabers and Force Powers have limited range and effects in combat, such a character would not overshadow other combat built PCs like a Hired Gun or even a Smuggler with a good blaster.

Because they do not want being a force user to be a I win button like previous systems.

Pretty much what Daeglan said.

Jedi in the prior Star Wars RPGs were notorious game-breakers and spotlight-hoggers, much as Clerics and Druids were in the 3.X iteration of D&D. Saga Edition was notorious for Force users (especially the Jedi class) being extremely powerful at low levels thanks to a single feat (due in large part to how skill check bonuses and defense scores didn't quite properly scale at the lower end of the spectrum).

And as much love and adoration as D6 gets, it was just as bad once the Force users got to 5 dice in their Force skills, which was enough to let them activate the bulk of the published powers without trouble, and would also have an insane number of powers to boot, to say nothing of how dangerous lightsaber battles were once the lightsaber combat power was brought into play; 'saber fights in that system really were "first hit wins." It got to the point that a number of GMs I know and gamed with either said "No Jedi at all!" or only let players they trusted to not abuse the system play a Jedi.

FFG has actually managed to incorporate Force users into the RPG and make it so that they don't automatically rule the roost. Being a true Jedi by the metric the Old Republic would use requires a mountain of XP... which is probably how it should be, seeing as how it took Luke (who was naturally gifted in the Force) four years and a lot of mental maturity to finally reach that point. In this system, by the time a would-be Jedi really starts coming into their own, the rest of the group is equally adept at their chosen focus as well and so are not outshone by the newly-minted Jedi Knight.

Given that the books are set by default in an era where Jedi training is incredibly difficult to come by, how FFG wrote the careers and specs in FaD makes perfect sense; the PCs generally are not benefiting from a life time of dedicated training in how to use the Force and be a Jedi, so they're not going to be inherently any more powerful than a PC made using EotE or AoR careers and specs.

I currently doing a F&D conversion for KOTOR. Seems to be going well, None of my players will be starting with Lightsabers.

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but I'm curious, are the rules provided for Force Users in Force and Destiny sufficient for running an Old Republic / Prequel campaign?

Will simply assigning additional XP and Force Rating be enough to replicate an Old Republic Jedi?

The short answer is -Of Course!

The old republic differs heavily from most canonical eras such as the Clone Wars and beyond. But the only thing that will limit your story telling is your own imagination. If you can't find it, make it. If there's something that's not quite right, change it, I don;t think you have to go overboard with Xp or upping the force rating of players to be fun just make everything else in the world on the same scale as starting characters are. Let the story scale with them.

Pretty much what Daeglan said.

Jedi in the prior Star Wars RPGs were notorious game-breakers and spotlight-hoggers, much as Clerics and Druids were in the 3.X iteration of D&D. Saga Edition was notorious for Force users (especially the Jedi class) being extremely powerful at low levels thanks to a single feat (due in large part to how skill check bonuses and defense scores didn't quite properly scale at the lower end of the spectrum).

And as much love and adoration as D6 gets, it was just as bad once the Force users got to 5 dice in their Force skills, which was enough to let them activate the bulk of the published powers without trouble, and would also have an insane number of powers to boot, to say nothing of how dangerous lightsaber battles were once the lightsaber combat power was brought into play; 'saber fights in that system really were "first hit wins." It got to the point that a number of GMs I know and gamed with either said "No Jedi at all!" or only let players they trusted to not abuse the system play a Jedi.

FFG has actually managed to incorporate Force users into the RPG and make it so that they don't automatically rule the roost. Being a true Jedi by the metric the Old Republic would use requires a mountain of XP... which is probably how it should be, seeing as how it took Luke (who was naturally gifted in the Force) four years and a lot of mental maturity to finally reach that point. In this system, by the time a would-be Jedi really starts coming into their own, the rest of the group is equally adept at their chosen focus as well and so are not outshone by the newly-minted Jedi Knight.

Given that the books are set by default in an era where Jedi training is incredibly difficult to come by, how FFG wrote the careers and specs in FaD makes perfect sense; the PCs generally are not benefiting from a life time of dedicated training in how to use the Force and be a Jedi, so they're not going to be inherently any more powerful than a PC made using EotE or AoR careers and specs.

If I were to run a game in the Old Republic era. I would have Jedi characters age be young in comparison to the rest of the party. As Jedi have very intensive training.

At the risk of dragging up an older thread... has anyone created a SWTOR to FFG conversion?

What's to convert besides the fluff? I'd probably start everyone at "Knight" level and go from there. As time goes on we'll gain more support for the F&D careers. But there is enough to start with right now.

Now if you mean actual stats for things like ships or adversaries I would just adapt a ship or npcs that is close. Either that or check out the various threads where they have statted up ships and npcs.

You can go with what's already been statted up in various threads, but if you want a quick and dirty vehicle conversion see below:

Equipment Conversions

Ground Vehicles

Galactic Republic

Manka -class walker – AT-AT

BA-2 combat walker – AT-ST

T-14 Skyspeeder – T-47 Airspeeder (remove tow cable)

Sith Empire

Jurgoran -class crawler tank – AT-AT

Mailoc -class siege walker – AT-ST

Yozusk -class Airspeeder – T-47 Airspeeder (remove tow cable)

Space Vehicles

Galactic Republic

Valour -class cruiser – MC-80 star cruiser

Thranta -class corvette – EF-76 Nebulon-B frigate

Wanderer -class transport – CR-90 corvette

Rendaran -class assault shuttle – Sentinel -class landing craft

Defender -class light corvette – YV-929 armed transport

Liberator -class starfighter – T-65B ‘X-Wing’

Equalizer -class bomber – BTL-A4 ‘Y-Wing’

Flashfire -class interceptor – RZ-1 ‘A-Wing’

Demolisher -class strike fighter – A/SF-01 ‘B-Wing’

Sith Empire

Harrower -class dreadnought – Imperial-I Star Destroyer

Terminus -class destroyer – Vindicator -class heavy cruiser

Gage -class transport – Vigil -class corvette

Imperial assault shuttle – ­Sentinel -class landing craft

Mark-IV Dominance -class starfighter – TIE Fighter

Mark-VI Supremacy ­-class starfighter – TIE Interceptor

B-28 Extinction -class bomber – TIE Bomber

Mark-VII Eliminator -class attack craft – TIE Defender

What's to convert besides the fluff? I'd probably start everyone at "Knight" level and go from there. As time goes on we'll gain more support for the F&D careers. But there is enough to start with right now.

Now if you mean actual stats for things like ships or adversaries I would just adapt a ship or npcs that is close. Either that or check out the various threads where they have statted up ships and npcs.

Besides fluff?

Well, for example, in SWTOR, a Bounty Hunter can be a "powertech" (close-range and tanky) or a "mercenary" (long-range and higher damage), and each of those has three further subspecs (mercenary has "arsenal", "innovative ordinance", and "bodyguard"). Players can also choose various combat skills that affect their given abilities in special ways. And then there's always head-canon and player-inserted flavor.

So... which FFG careers and specializations and talents and so on would be used to represent each class, advanced class, subspec, and the variations in combat skills?

What's to convert besides the fluff? I'd probably start everyone at "Knight" level and go from there. As time goes on we'll gain more support for the F&D careers. But there is enough to start with right now.

Now if you mean actual stats for things like ships or adversaries I would just adapt a ship or npcs that is close. Either that or check out the various threads where they have statted up ships and npcs.

Besides fluff?

Well, for example, in SWTOR, a Bounty Hunter can be a "powertech" (close-range and tanky) or a "mercenary" (long-range and higher damage), and each of those has three further subspecs (mercenary has "arsenal", "innovative ordinance", and "bodyguard"). Players can also choose various combat skills that affect their given abilities in special ways. And then there's always head-canon and player-inserted flavor.

So... which FFG careers and specializations and talents and so on would be used to represent each class, advanced class, subspec, and the variations in combat skills?

Sounds like any of the Bounty Hunter or Hired Gun Carears can be matched up to give what you need for a TOR "Bounty Hunter"

What's to convert besides the fluff? I'd probably start everyone at "Knight" level and go from there. As time goes on we'll gain more support for the F&D careers. But there is enough to start with right now.

Now if you mean actual stats for things like ships or adversaries I would just adapt a ship or npcs that is close. Either that or check out the various threads where they have statted up ships and npcs.

Besides fluff?

Well, for example, in SWTOR, a Bounty Hunter can be a "powertech" (close-range and tanky) or a "mercenary" (long-range and higher damage), and each of those has three further subspecs (mercenary has "arsenal", "innovative ordinance", and "bodyguard"). Players can also choose various combat skills that affect their given abilities in special ways. And then there's always head-canon and player-inserted flavor.

So... which FFG careers and specializations and talents and so on would be used to represent each class, advanced class, subspec, and the variations in combat skills?

This is something that is best left to the player to decide. It works out better conversion wise if they focus less on the SWTOR classes and more on the concepts those classes inspire. They'll find it far more easier at that point to recreate a character they made in that game.

Perhaps.

I think there's a variance in the level of abstraction that different players find fitting.

Then again, it's also possible that many of the "abilities" for a SWTOR bounty hunter would be represented by equipment in the FFG game.

Perhaps.

I think there's a variance in the level of abstraction that different players find fitting.

Then again, it's also possible that many of the "abilities" for a SWTOR bounty hunter would be represented by equipment in the FFG game.

Well I mean ..... there is just stuff this system doesn't even do that the game does. The Bounty Hunter can do ranged healing by shooting other people. That's not something you're gonna get out of this system. But what you can do is combine Bounty Hunter with either the Doctor or Combat Medic to get the same general concept of a Bounty Hunter that's good at healing.

Perhaps.

I think there's a variance in the level of abstraction that different players find fitting.

Then again, it's also possible that many of the "abilities" for a SWTOR bounty hunter would be represented by equipment in the FFG game.

Well I mean ..... there is just stuff this system doesn't even do that the game does. The Bounty Hunter can do ranged healing by shooting other people. That's not something you're gonna get out of this system. But what you can do is combine Bounty Hunter with either the Doctor or Combat Medic to get the same general concept of a Bounty Hunter that's good at healing.

I haven't looked at the "bodyguard" spec in a while, but the other mercenary specs don't "heal with kolto blasters" any more. Even Bioware may have come to find that a bit too silly.