Not trying intentionally to sound alarmist, but those of you who've won the thing- after the AP nerf/xi7 boost (depending on your point of view), how are you using them? Particularly at close range?
Are you alpha-striking, then running away with 1 hp?
No wonder they put Rieekan in that box...
Not trying intentionally to sound alarmist, but those of you who've won the thing- after the AP nerf/xi7 boost (depending on your point of view), how are you using them? Particularly at close range?
Are you alpha-striking, then running away with 1 hp?
No wonder they put Rieekan in that box...
That is what strikes at the side and rear are for and/or gladiator hunting
I am really wondering if I'll buy one. It's so expensive, no brace, moves badly at speed 4 .......... I just don't know!
Not trying intentionally to sound alarmist, but those of you who've won the thing- after the AP nerf/xi7 boost (depending on your point of view), how are you using them? Particularly at close range?
Are you alpha-striking, then running away with 1 hp?
No wonder they put Rieekan in that box...
Yeah, pretty much. Depending on circumstances, you can generally expect to survive anywhere from 7-12 damage at close range before they pop. This means that with most ships, you have better than even chances of surviving the one shot you have to to rip into them and woop woop woop out of there. Of course, you're even better off if you're first player and can drop it in the spot you want at the end of one turn and then smash and run the beginning of the next.
Their paradigm is definitely one of hit-and-run tactics, similar to the CR90B. They do a very good job of surviving at range, which you use to last long enough to get in close and trigger your one massive shot.
You can obviously build them a few different ways, too.
The artillery that's basically invincible at long range (Foresight, Ackbar, gunnery teams, etc on the scout). The one-shot machine (IO, Ackbar, TRC, ACMs, etc on the torpedo). Close range survivability (ECM, Admonition). Brawler (Rieekan, ACM, OE on the torpedo).
If you're just starting out with the shrimpy, you should just break out Akbar with the scouts (gunnery team, foresight/projectors/ECM)
even if you don't come to immediate terms with the bizarre close range focus and fragility, it'll perform admirably as a replacement/support for the Assault Frigate Mk2
Edited by ficklegreendiceI am really wondering if I'll buy one. It's so expensive, no brace, moves badly at speed 4 .......... I just don't know!
Moves badly at speed 4? Nah, it has a great speed 4 move that actually is rather useful.
I'm interested in the OP's question, too (plus in whether Rogue bombers/Rhymer bombers/Rhymer Rogue bombers are a significant threat, meaning I need to budget bringing anti-bomber squadrons whenever I field these).
I went ahead and ordered one of these, just to have the model and upgrade cards (and so I can play-test with it myself), but as I've said elsewhere on the forums, I'm not sold on these as an appreciable upgrade for AFIIs as a fleet cornerstone, given their comparative cost and low hull/no brace. I can see having one in an Ackbar fleet contributing long-range fire and lurking around as anti-gladiator insurance, or maybe even as a one-shot alpha-strike ship against a high-priority target (like a self-destructing torpedo raft), but not in large numbers.
I'm interested in the OP's question, too (plus in whether Rogue bombers/Rhymer bombers/Rhymer Rogue bombers are a significant threat, meaning I need to budget bringing anti-bomber squadrons whenever I field these).
I went ahead and ordered one of these, just to have the model and upgrade cards (and so I can play-test with it myself), but as I've said elsewhere on the forums, I'm not sold on these as an appreciable upgrade for AFIIs as a fleet cornerstone, given their comparative cost and low hull/no brace. I can see having one in an Ackbar fleet contributing long-range fire and lurking around as anti-gladiator insurance, or maybe even as a one-shot alpha-strike ship against a high-priority target (like a self-destructing torpedo raft), but not in large numbers.
I dont see them as an "upgrade" to anything.
In all honesty, there are no "direct upgrades" in the game currently. Just as I have found in Netrunner FFG is building a wider game not a higher game.
What this means is that FFG is not creating direct upgrades for X model, or Y card. They are increasing the options.
The MC30 is a multi-role unit that can jump into dangerous areas and survive for the most part. It can jump to speed 4 one turn and then with the use of a token and command drop to speed 2 so that you can come around and start the black dice bracket. Tons of tactics to get use to.
I think in a few months we will see the MC30 come into its own and be a strong force.
They're not a drop-in replacement for the AF2. Well, one Foresight scout built out right might be.
I've been using mine in pretty different roles, more similar to Gladiators. So far I've mostly been running torpedo frigates as the "punch", backed by either 2x AF2 or Home One.
in regards to "stiff" (AFmk2 rotation) speed 4, the solution is very simple
nav token
Shrimps have a Nebulon speed 3 chart, which is ludicrously good. If you ever need to make a 90 degree turn, just jump down to speed 3
I can't wait to pair Foresight with Mon Mothma. 2 evades affecting 2 die each and deliscious re-rolls at close range.
She's the ultimate troll.
Yeah, For those that branch out from Ackbar though there is some great potential, like mothma and the scout version.
I think the MC30 wont be heavily favoured at first, especially the torpedo version, because it isn't a natural combo with Ackbar. If you want to maximise Ackbar you would use assault frigates.
the shrimp is a natural combo with Akbar, regardless of the Afmk2
it's got nearly the same ranged punch, and a close range deterrent which the fattie does not enjoy access to
I'm certain the most successful Akbars will mix and match the two ship types
I'm interested in the OP's question, too (plus in whether Rogue bombers/Rhymer bombers/Rhymer Rogue bombers are a significant threat, meaning I need to budget bringing anti-bomber squadrons whenever I field these).
I went ahead and ordered one of these, just to have the model and upgrade cards (and so I can play-test with it myself), but as I've said elsewhere on the forums, I'm not sold on these as an appreciable upgrade for AFIIs as a fleet cornerstone, given their comparative cost and low hull/no brace. I can see having one in an Ackbar fleet contributing long-range fire and lurking around as anti-gladiator insurance, or maybe even as a one-shot alpha-strike ship against a high-priority target (like a self-destructing torpedo raft), but not in large numbers.
I dont see them as an "upgrade" to anything.
In all honesty, there are no "direct upgrades" in the game currently. Just as I have found in Netrunner FFG is building a wider game not a higher game.
What this means is that FFG is not creating direct upgrades for X model, or Y card. They are increasing the options.
The MC30 is a multi-role unit that can jump into dangerous areas and survive for the most part. It can jump to speed 4 one turn and then with the use of a token and command drop to speed 2 so that you can come around and start the black dice bracket. Tons of tactics to get use to.
I think in a few months we will see the MC30 come into its own and be a strong force.
This is technically correct, I suppose (although they have basically the same upgrade slots as an AFII--swapping out ordnance for offensive retrofit--so I'm not sure the disparity between the AFII and the Scout Frigate is as big as some make it out to be). My comment was not whether the two ships are a perfect one-to-one comparison, but rather whether the scout offered any upgrades (i.e., improved abilities) that would dislodge the AFII as the cornerstone of my rebel fleets. My point is that, from a fleet-building perspective, they basically occupy the same niche: mid-sized (i.e., mid-priced) offense-oriented ship that is maneuverable and can take some defensive upgrades. It's not a support ship (like an escort Neb). It's not there for activation spam or for swarming (CR-90). It's not a tank or a centerpiece (MC-80). It is a better flanker than an AFII (primarily because of its better speed, and also because it's far more vulnerable when it's not on a flank than when it is). It has higher damage output at close range, less damage output at medium range (both variants), and less/no damage output at long range (scout vs. torpedo) at long range. It wants to be a brawler, it's less scary than a Neb's front-arc at long-range area denial.
For my own comparison purposes, I took a look at average damage by range**** to see how the ships compared.
Average Damage by range
AFII side arc (R R R B)
Long Range Medium Range Close Range
No upgrades 2.25 3.00 3.00
+ Enh Arms (10) 3.00 3.75 3.75
+ TRCs (7)* 3.50 4.25 4.25
+ Ackbar (38) 3.75 4.50 4.50
MC-30 Scout side arc (R R B B B)
Long Range Medium Range Close Range
No upgrades 1.50 1.50 4.50
+ Enh Arms (10) 2.25 2.25 5.25
+ TRCs (7)** 2.75 2.75 5.75
+ Ackbar (38) 3.00 3.00 6.00
MC-30 Torpedo side arc (B B B B B)
Long Range Medium Range Close Range
No upgrades 0.00 1.50 4.50
+ Enh Arms (10) 0.75 2.25 5.25
+ TRCs (7)** 0.00 1.50 4.50
+ Ackbar (38)*** 0.00 3.00 6.00
Notes:____________________________________________
* Once per round, unless you discard the evade
** Up to twice per round, if the evade is not used for defensive purposes, but only if you have red dice to alter.
*** Operating under the assumption that Ackbar does no add attack at long-range, unless the ship otherwise has long-range battery dice from enhanced armament.
**** I understand there are any number of ways to break down dice probabilities. This one is simple (read, I can do it), so I went for with it. 
A few thoughts:
I figure I will look into the survivability aspect next, as that's my primary concern about the MC-30. I think my view of the Scout, at least, is improving.
I dont see them as an "upgrade" to anything.I'm interested in the OP's question, too (plus in whether Rogue bombers/Rhymer bombers/Rhymer Rogue bombers are a significant threat, meaning I need to budget bringing anti-bomber squadrons whenever I field these).
I went ahead and ordered one of these, just to have the model and upgrade cards (and so I can play-test with it myself), but as I've said elsewhere on the forums, I'm not sold on these as an appreciable upgrade for AFIIs as a fleet cornerstone, given their comparative cost and low hull/no brace. I can see having one in an Ackbar fleet contributing long-range fire and lurking around as anti-gladiator insurance, or maybe even as a one-shot alpha-strike ship against a high-priority target (like a self-destructing torpedo raft), but not in large numbers.
In all honesty, there are no "direct upgrades" in the game currently. Just as I have found in Netrunner FFG is building a wider game not a higher game.
What this means is that FFG is not creating direct upgrades for X model, or Y card. They are increasing the options.
The MC30 is a multi-role unit that can jump into dangerous areas and survive for the most part. It can jump to speed 4 one turn and then with the use of a token and command drop to speed 2 so that you can come around and start the black dice bracket. Tons of tactics to get use to.
I think in a few months we will see the MC30 come into its own and be a strong force.
This is technically correct, I suppose (although they have basically the same upgrade slots as an AFII--swapping out ordnance for offensive retrofit--so I'm not sure the disparity between the AFII and the Scout Frigate is as big as some make it out to be). My comment was not whether the two ships are a perfect one-to-one comparison, but rather whether the scout offered any upgrades (i.e., improved abilities) that would dislodge the AFII as the cornerstone of my rebel fleets. My point is that, from a fleet-building perspective, they basically occupy the same niche: mid-sized (i.e., mid-priced) offense-oriented ship that is maneuverable and can take some defensive upgrades. It's not a support ship (like an escort Neb). It's not there for activation spam or for swarming (CR-90). It's not a tank or a centerpiece (MC-80). It is a better flanker than an AFII (primarily because of its better speed, and also because it's far more vulnerable when it's not on a flank than when it is). It has higher damage output at close range, less damage output at medium range (both variants), and less/no damage output at long range (scout vs. torpedo) at long range. It wants to be a brawler, it's less scary than a Neb's front-arc at long-range area denial.
For my own comparison purposes, I took a look at average damage by range**** to see how the ships compared.
Average Damage by range
AFII side arc (R R R B)
Long Range Medium Range Close Range
No upgrades 2.25 3.00 3.00
+ Enh Arms (10) 3.00 3.75 3.75
+ TRCs (7)* 3.50 4.25 4.25
+ Ackbar (38) 3.75 4.50 4.50
MC-30 Scout side arc (R R B B B)
Long Range Medium Range Close Range
No upgrades 1.50 1.50 4.50
+ Enh Arms (10) 2.25 2.25 5.25
+ TRCs (7)** 2.75 2.75 5.75
+ Ackbar (38) 3.00 3.00 6.00
MC-30 Torpedo side arc (B B B B B)
Long Range Medium Range Close Range
No upgrades 0.00 1.50 4.50
+ Enh Arms (10) 0.75 2.25 5.25
+ TRCs (7)** 0.00 1.50 4.50
+ Ackbar (38)*** 0.00 3.00 6.00
Notes:____________________________________________
* Once per round, unless you discard the evade
** Up to twice per round, if the evade is not used for defensive purposes, but only if you have red dice to alter.
*** Operating under the assumption that Ackbar does no add attack at long-range, unless the ship otherwise has long-range battery dice from enhanced armament.
**** I understand there are any number of ways to break down dice probabilities. This one is simple (read, I can do it), so I went for with it.
A few thoughts:
I figure I will look into the survivability aspect next, as that's my primary concern about the MC-30. I think my view of the Scout, at least, is improving.
- The damage disparity between the AFII and the MC-30 Scout is there, but it's less than I thought it would be. It is most stark at medium range, where the disparity ranges between 25% (+Ackbar) and 50% (naked).
- The damage disparity between the AFII at close range and either MC-30 at close range is quite a bit larger than I thought (+25-33%). It also does not account for additional black crit effects (ACMs/APTs), this is just assuming average outcomes on a single die roll. Selective rerolls with ordnance experts could boost the damage totals (but at the cost of gunnery team... which begs the question, would you want GTs on the MC-30 at close range?). For that reason, I think the Scout probably merits more attention than I've given it thus far.
- That said, the overall damage of the AFII is more static/consistent across all range bands. In short, range matters far less to an AFII than to either MC-30 variant (though that's hardly a novel observation).
- The overall damage disparity between the both the AFII/MC-30 scout and the MC-30 torpedo, counting all range bands, is shocking. The Torpedo offers no appreciable upgrade over the Scout at medium-close damage (especially if something like TRC is in play, which mitigates the chance of multiple red blanks), so I see little reason not to fork over an extra six points to get the red dice.
Love this!
There are a few key differences though.
XI7's or HTTs work at close range with both of MC30's. The capacity to take ACMs or APT's on top of a Turbolaser upgrade can lead to a huge amount of damage.
With that it is faster and can operate alone to a degree.
Ok - I'm beginning to be persuaded 
- who am I kidding, I know I'll buy one ! Lol
I think it will take skill to fly in to black die range, and out, still in one piece.
Ok - I'm beginning to be persuaded
I think it will take skill to fly in to black die range, and out, still in one piece.
Copied from my post in the first thread about MC30s being flimsy:
I want to know how you are all getting destroyed so bad with the MC30. I'd like to hear the situation you put it under.
2 evades and 2 redirects. Not the best as is I agree but add in Foresight.
(Vic II shooting)
Long range:
It's pretty much pointless to attack it because 3- dice, lock down 1 Evade and then it throws the other 2 away. Maybe 1 damage
Medium range:
This is where things get intresting: 3 red: I'll give 1 Crit, 1 Blank, 1 Double hit 3 Blue: 1 Hit, 1 Acc 1 Crit Thats 5 damage Force the double reroll land the crit: You get 2 hits now. So now it's 4 damage. I use 1 redirect and now I lose 2 shields one a side not facing anything and 1 on two other sides.
Total damage 5 shield out of the 11. this it not reparing either so it could only have lost 3 shields at this point.
Short range:
I'm going to do a Vic's front arc because if you are in the front arc again at the range you messed up. But I'll show a way to have that forgiven
We'll give the same damage as Medium since same guns firing
5 damage with one redirect ignored. Spend the redirect you can and drop all your shields down expect one and take 1 crit, 1 hit
Thats 3 rounds of shooting from a Vic and the MC30 Foresight took Hull damage not destroyed but 1 crit card 1 hit. Yes, I know you can roll better; yes, you can get more ACC but this is easy beleivable damage. Not gimping the dice rolls but not making them great eaither. Also this is no repairing and teh Vic hitting the same side each time. If he shot a diffrent side for any reason the MC30 could have no shields but full hull.
Throw Home One in the picture with Projection Experts and give the MC30 2 shields a turn and have it repair for 1 and moving another over from a non-facing side, Thats 3 damage a turn that just gets repaired. Severally gimping the damage 1 ship can do to it. If a Vic does 5 damage for 2 turns and you repair 3 shield a turn then you've lost 4 shields in 3 turns of a Vic shooting at you. Meaning your hull is intact and you can take shots from a second Vic. (Ignoring the first turn of shooting because it repaired that on it's own or Home one did)
Which leads me to this:
It's a hunter, but not one that works independently from the fleet. You have to support it but it will plink shields from a far and then get in it dropping it's missiles on an unshielded surface. Then fly away to do it again turn 5-6 hopefully. You can't send it alone, give them a goldfish to snack on too. If you can jam Yavaris and B-wings or the like in it, then you make them wonder what they should kill first. 2 Goldfish really make it hard to care about the little MC30 doing 2 damage to a shield.
Was really hoping the shrimp would get the demolisher shoot move shoot ability. Without that ability Im not to impressed with it vs its cost
Was really hoping the shrimp would get the demolisher shoot move shoot ability. Without that ability Im not to impressed with it vs its cost
Nah, it would be way too powerful. It's fine as it is, just gotta learn how to fly it.
They are glass ships with damned heavy cannons.
I've one both one shot a VSD and get one shot by a VSD (or close enough anyway, Dual arc and there might have been a shield damage on each, can't recall for certain.) They hurt, but can get hammered flat quickly (and need to be!)
Love this!
There are a few key differences though.
XI7's or HTTs work at close range with both of MC30's. The capacity to take ACMs or APT's on top of a Turbolaser upgrade can lead to a huge amount of damage.
With that it is faster and can operate alone to a degree.
Yes, I did reference the ordnance upgrade in the post, but didn't factor them in (since they only boost the already impressive close-range damage that much higher, and the disparity between a naked shrimp and a naked AFII seemed significant enough to me, even without factoring in the odds and expectancy of crit damage). I purposefully did not consider upgrades like Xi7s or HTTs that thrive on defense token manipulation, not because I don't think they'd be good on a shrimp, but because the math at that point becomes far more complicated than my confidence level would allow. But yes, being able to add either effect to black damage (really only the Vic-I can do it otherwise) has the potential to be really nasty on the target.
I think the big thing about the Shrimp is that it exemplifies how they seem to be going for rebel design: Solo Aces, Co-Op ships. The Shrimp itself is not awful but not brilliant, in short it's nothing to write home about. But properly supported it adds a shocking amount of short range firepower in places the rebels haven't really had it before. They can make a GSD think a little harder about closing that range gap, or even divert attention from a smaller ship because that four hull can seem awfully juicy to a hunting GSD. And at short range they bring the pain with those black dice, previously only attained through titles. Their speed lets them close the gap quickly, or flirt and play keep away from something bigger and meaner.
So yeah. Solo I'm not wild about a Shrimp, but the teamwork possibilities seem pretty awesome to me.
Love this!
There are a few key differences though.
XI7's or HTTs work at close range with both of MC30's. The capacity to take ACMs or APT's on top of a Turbolaser upgrade can lead to a huge amount of damage.
With that it is faster and can operate alone to a degree.
Yes, I did reference the ordnance upgrade in the post, but didn't factor them in (since they only boost the already impressive close-range damage that much higher, and the disparity between a naked shrimp and a naked AFII seemed significant enough to me, even without factoring in the odds and expectancy of crit damage). I purposefully did not consider upgrades like Xi7s or HTTs that thrive on defense token manipulation, not because I don't think they'd be good on a shrimp, but because the math at that point becomes far more complicated than my confidence level would allow.
It should have been slightly cheaper, current costing it is very hard to see why you are taking it over an AF.