The FAQ has updated this card which now reads.

If a ship equipped with fire control system and weapons engineer attacks, that ship must acquire the first target lock on the defender (if able) before acquiring a target lock on the second ship.

If a ship equipped with fire control system attacks more then once in a round, it may acquire a terget lock after each attack. It may spend the target lock acquired after the first attack on the second attack.

B-wing + Fire Control System + Heavy Laser Cannon

So my question is..................a B-wing with a Heavy Laser Cannon and Fire Control System shoots at range 3 rolling 4 dice for the HLC. It can't attack more then once in a round. After adjusting crits to standard hits, which effectively ends this attack the FCS now allows you to gain a target lock. This attack is now finished..............can the target lock attained (after the first attack) now be used to reroll dice for that first attack?

Reading the process I say no it cannot be used to reroll because the target lock was gained AFTER the first attack was completed, and the ship only gets ONE attack per round.

If possible I hope an official FFG designer or judge can answer this. Thanks

After you perform an attack, you may acquire a target lock on the defender.

This is a case of doing what the card says, and not doing what the card doesn't say. You acquire the target lock after you attack, not before. That target lock may be used on subsequent attacks, but in order to get the benefit you are looking for you'd have had to take a target lock as your action for that turn.

Yes that is my understanding as well. But I was told at a recent tournament that you are indeed allowed to use that newly acquired target lock to reroll the dice for the heavy laser. It was also stated that this is how they have always played it, and also the way FFG told them.

But reading the card sequence it seems pretty clear to me that once the B-wing fires the heavy laser that attack is now finished, then you acguire the target lock. Therefore no rerolls for this turn, but you can use it on the next turn.

The OP's question seems to center on an interpretation of the attack sequence that considers the attack as "over" when there's still an opportunity to modify the attack dice. It might be helpful to look up "Attack" in the Rules Reference (downloadable from the X-Wing product page on fantasyflightgames.com, under Support/Rules). The timing for Fire Control System doesn't kick in until after all those steps have been completed. Since the last step is "Deal Damage", by the time the target lock happens you're way past the point where you can do anything to modify the attack dice that you just rolled.

Yes that is my understanding as well. But I was told at a recent tournament that you are indeed allowed to use that newly acquired target lock to reroll the dice for the heavy laser. It was also stated that this is how they have always played it, and also the way FFG told them.

But reading the card sequence it seems pretty clear to me that once the B-wing fires the heavy laser that attack is now finished, then you acguire the target lock. Therefore no rerolls for this turn, but you can use it on the next turn.

It's possible that the thing you were told at the tournament is a garbled version of the somewhat obscure fact that, if you use a target lock (or Predator, or Lone Wolf, or any other reroll-granting ability) to reroll attack dice on a Heavy Laser Cannon attack, you don't have to downgrade any crits you get from the rerolled dice.

Nope they were clearly using that FCS acquired target lock to reroll the misses from the HLC. And today I even called the guy and told him I think it's wrong and he insists it is correct. So basically here's the fleet and the sequence the player was using on his rolls.

3x Dagger Squadron B-wings + Heavy Laser Cannon + Fire Control System

99 points

Each turn after maneuvering we proceed to the fire phase, his sequence was...................

1. Fire eligible weapon system, either HLC or stock weapon system

2. Make appropriate die adjustments due to weapon effect or token effect

3. Acquire target lock due to FCS

4. Reroll all misses with newly acquired target lock

5. Deal damage to my ship

This is not correct as far as I can see in the rules.

Nope they were clearly using that FCS acquired target lock to reroll the misses from the HLC. And today I even called the guy and told him I think it's wrong and he insists it is correct. So basically here's the fleet and the sequence the player was using on his rolls.

3x Dagger Squadron B-wings + Heavy Laser Cannon + Fire Control System

99 points

Each turn after maneuvering we proceed to the fire phase, his sequence was...................

1. Fire eligible weapon system, either HLC or stock weapon system

2. Make appropriate die adjustments due to weapon effect or token effect

3. Acquire target lock due to FCS

4. Reroll all misses with newly acquired target lock

5. Deal damage to my ship

This is not correct as far as I can see in the rules.

Yeah, it's definitely not correct. I was wondering if maybe the "official source" they thought had told them to do it this way had actually been talking about the other thing. But regardless of how they got there, they're Doing It Wrong and they should stop.

I'm getting behind with my collection but isn't one of the new pilots allowed to acquire a TL when attacking which then allows the new TL to be use on that same attack. That may be a source of confusion due to the obvious comparison with FCS as each will grant a TL and use an Attack as the catalyst; it's just that the timing for each of them is different.

R4 agromech does allow you to take a TL after you spend a focus and use it on the same attack.

But that's still not the humble Dagger Sqn Pilot. Lybo's 'guy' couldn't be more wrong.

Nope they were clearly using that FCS acquired target lock to reroll the misses from the HLC. And today I even called the guy and told him I think it's wrong and he insists it is correct. So basically here's the fleet and the sequence the player was using on his rolls.

3x Dagger Squadron B-wings + Heavy Laser Cannon + Fire Control System

99 points

Each turn after maneuvering we proceed to the fire phase, his sequence was...................

1. Fire eligible weapon system, either HLC or stock weapon system

2. Make appropriate die adjustments due to weapon effect or token effect

3. Acquire target lock due to FCS

4. Reroll all misses with newly acquired target lock

5. Deal damage to my ship

This is not correct as far as I can see in the rules.

The proper sequence from the Rules Reference Guide is:

ATTACK

A ship can perform one attack when it becomes the

active ship during the Combat phase. To perform an

attack, the ship resolves the following steps in order:

1. Declare Target

2. Roll Attack Dice

3. Modify Attack Dice

4. Roll Defense Dice

5. Modify Defense Dice

6. Compare Results

7. Deal Damage

Only after *all* of those seven steps are completed is an Attack considered to be complete. The FCS would trigger after step 7, never in the middle of the Attack sequence.

Your opponent may be under the mistaken belief that the FCS is a Modify effect and is trying to trigger it there, or that "after performing an attack" means after they roll their attack dice. Both of these are incorrect.

Thanks for all the replies, I knew I was right. This a large group of players that is doing this and they all think the way they are doing it is right.

Yes that is my understanding as well. But I was told at a recent tournament that you are indeed allowed to use that newly acquired target lock to reroll the dice for the heavy laser. It was also stated that this is how they have always played it, and also the way FFG told them.

But reading the card sequence it seems pretty clear to me that once the B-wing fires the heavy laser that attack is now finished, then you acguire the target lock. Therefore no rerolls for this turn, but you can use it on the next turn.

Somewhat worrying that this happened at a tourney - casual play within a regular gaming group I can understand as there's more of a tendency to just go with someone else's interpretation - but you'd expect the TO to be well on top of something like this

Then point them to this section

That would be a pretty powerful ability for 2 pts.

They are clearly playing it wrong

It goes back to the thread I started

These experience players play and teach new players the game.

Then after awhile it becomes the norm and even new players will teach others and so becomes a terrible flaw in the game

Then you come along, question it, and it's like "nope that's not how it is"

"but the rules say..."

"nope I'm right or wrong"

As if a human being has NEVER been wrong before

These people need to give their heads a shake (but not too hard, wouldn't want what little they have left to fall out)

Speak up.

If these people are so big headed that they can't accept they are wrong, then this may not be the group you want to play with.

You even clearly have the FAQ and this post to back yourself up.

I would love to hear how they justify it, and watch them get shot down over and over

Congrats on you, shame on the people who are willing to cheat at a game with little plastic Space ships

Some people are just sad

If they do come here, I suggest to them stop teaching people how to play the game wrong. Let this guy do it

He cares enough to look into it and actually read and understand the rules.

Clearly reading and understanding is a very difficult thing in groups these days

(sorry I'm cranky right now, and I've beem dealing with some ****** store owner here xwing, and reading these kind of posts makes me mad.)

This was my very first xwing tourney too. And the funny thing was it was 4 rounds and I was playing this guy for first place. I had tabled my first 3 opponents.

Well buddy is dead wrong

I suggest you send him a link to here and people can explain to him the proper way to play

If this is a large group it should be corrected

Abilities like vessery can do what he is suggesting

I believe that is even in the FAQ.

If so then wouldn't Fcs be worded the same

Sorry to hear about your loss at the final table.

I'd say your the real winner and not him

God people need to learn how to read and understand

First sentence

"after you perform an attack"

After meaning when it is complete

Dmg has gone through

Now look at vessery text

"

When attacking,immediately after you roll attack dice..."

So the attack isn't completed yet

That's a big difference

God Phantoms would be really sick if Fcs worked the way this group thinks.

Read the card text people, don't twist things around just to benefit from it

I don't mind the loss, it was a super fun day! What I mind is the fact they insist they are correct.

Buddy probably wouldn't have made it to the final table

I don't like hearing that, and feel sorry for ya.

I'm glad you had fun, but I can't stand people who just think "nope I'm right" without even considering the slightest that they maybe wrong

Again, NE t time you talk to him show him this thread. It's clearly been pointed out

It should be corrected

I say rematch lol

Edit

I'd ask to see this where ffg told them.

If reading and understanding Fcs is that difficult, then I can see whatever reply they were given was also misunderstood

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

If the ship equipped with Heavy Laser Cannon is Colonel Vessery (although he himself cannot equip a Fire Control System), then Colonel Vessery can use his target lock immediately (which is the wording on the card).

I may be wrong. I make assertions because I'm American, and it's my god-given right to speak factually about subjects about which I know nothing.

But the wording on Vessery (i.e., "immediately") is what makes him different than a Fire Control System.

And another newer exception:

Redline (TIE Punisher) can equip a Fire Control System, and whenever he acquires a Target Lock, he acquires 2 Target Locks (on one ship only). He can get a little tricky, especially with Cluster Missiles (which attack twice). Technically, when using his FCS to acquire a TL (i.e. two TLs) on the target, he could not use either to modify that attack.

However, if he starts the combat phase with his 2 TLs on a single Target, he can give the appearance of using his FCS, but it's just an appearance. Even if he fired a missile requiring a TL, and then modified that missile shot with his second TL (having already spent the first as a condition to fire), he would only be using his original two TLs. Then, when fire is resolved, he acquires a new (i.e. two) Target Lock on his target.

Cluster Missiles require a TL to fire, though. So if he has 1 TL on the Target, it is consumed when the missiles are fired; that missile attack cannot be modified by a TL because no TL exists.

What happens to the second cluster missile attack is a subject I cannot answer!

If Redline has two TLs on his target when he shoots the Cluster Missile, he consumes one to fire; he can modify the first cluster missile attack.

What I don't know is whether the TL (i.e. two TLs) from Redline's FCS is applied after the first cluster missile attack, or only after both cluster missile attacks.

THis applies to both conditions when Redline is firing a cluster missile (specifically) at a target which he has one or two Target Locks upon at the start of the Combat Phase...

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

If the ship equipped with Heavy Laser Cannon is Colonel Vessery (although he himself cannot equip a Fire Control System), then Colonel Vessery can use his target lock immediately (which is the wording on the card).

I may be wrong. I make assertions because I'm American, and it's my god-given right to speak factually about subjects about which I know nothing.

But the wording on Vessery (i.e., "immediately") is what makes him different than a Fire Control System.

And another newer exception:

Redline (TIE Punisher) can equip a Fire Control System, and whenever he acquires a Target Lock, he acquires 2 Target Locks (on one ship only). He can get a little tricky, especially with Cluster Missiles (which attack twice). Technically, when using his FCS to acquire a TL (i.e. two TLs) on the target, he could not use either to modify that attack.

However, if he starts the combat phase with his 2 TLs on a single Target, he can give the appearance of using his FCS, but it's just an appearance. Even if he fired a missile requiring a TL, and then modified that missile shot with his second TL (having already spent the first as a condition to fire), he would only be using his original two TLs. Then, when fire is resolved, he acquires a new (i.e. two) Target Lock on his target.

Cluster Missiles require a TL to fire, though. So if he has 1 TL on the Target, it is consumed when the missiles are fired; that missile attack cannot be modified by a TL because no TL exists.

What happens to the second cluster missile attack is a subject I cannot answer!

If Redline has two TLs on his target when he shoots the Cluster Missile, he consumes one to fire; he can modify the first cluster missile attack.

What I don't know is whether the TL (i.e. two TLs) from Redline's FCS is applied after the first cluster missile attack, or only after both cluster missile attacks.

THis applies to both conditions when Redline is firing a cluster missile (specifically) at a target which he has one or two Target Locks upon at the start of the Combat Phase...

This has nothing to do with what I am talking about. If you read the thread you saw the listed fleet. But thanks for the feedback.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

If the ship equipped with Heavy Laser Cannon is Colonel Vessery (although he himself cannot equip a Fire Control System), then Colonel Vessery can use his target lock immediately (which is the wording on the card).

I may be wrong. I make assertions because I'm American, and it's my god-given right to speak factually about subjects about which I know nothing.

But the wording on Vessery (i.e., "immediately") is what makes him different than a Fire Control System.

And another newer exception:

Redline (TIE Punisher) can equip a Fire Control System, and whenever he acquires a Target Lock, he acquires 2 Target Locks (on one ship only). He can get a little tricky, especially with Cluster Missiles (which attack twice). Technically, when using his FCS to acquire a TL (i.e. two TLs) on the target, he could not use either to modify that attack.

However, if he starts the combat phase with his 2 TLs on a single Target, he can give the appearance of using his FCS, but it's just an appearance. Even if he fired a missile requiring a TL, and then modified that missile shot with his second TL (having already spent the first as a condition to fire), he would only be using his original two TLs. Then, when fire is resolved, he acquires a new (i.e. two) Target Lock on his target.

Cluster Missiles require a TL to fire, though. So if he has 1 TL on the Target, it is consumed when the missiles are fired; that missile attack cannot be modified by a TL because no TL exists.

What happens to the second cluster missile attack is a subject I cannot answer!

If Redline has two TLs on his target when he shoots the Cluster Missile, he consumes one to fire; he can modify the first cluster missile attack.

What I don't know is whether the TL (i.e. two TLs) from Redline's FCS is applied after the first cluster missile attack, or only after both cluster missile attacks.

THis applies to both conditions when Redline is firing a cluster missile (specifically) at a target which he has one or two Target Locks upon at the start of the Combat Phase...

Colonel Vessery is an exception to the general rule as his card text states his timing window, which is after attack dice roll and before modifications.

With Redline's case, the first Cluster Missile attack is just that - a full attack sequence. So once that's resolved fully, FCS kicks in and grants a TL on the defender, which with his ability allows him to gain a second one as well. Then the second attack starts, but without the "Declare Target" step. So Redline will have two TLs available for modification. When the second attack is fully resolved, FCS kicks in again and Redline can gain another TL on the defender, plus one for his ability, unless he's reached his maximum of two.

You only spend a TL once to fire BOTH of the Cluster Missile attacks.

Nope they were clearly using that FCS acquired target lock to reroll the misses from the HLC. And today I even called the guy and told him I think it's wrong and he insists it is correct. So basically here's the fleet and the sequence the player was using on his rolls.

3x Dagger Squadron B-wings + Heavy Laser Cannon + Fire Control System

99 points

Each turn after maneuvering we proceed to the fire phase, his sequence was...................

1. Fire eligible weapon system, either HLC or stock weapon system

2. Make appropriate die adjustments due to weapon effect or token effect

3. Acquire target lock due to FCS

4. Reroll all misses with newly acquired target lock

5. Deal damage to my ship

This is not correct as far as I can see in the rules.

Now you've got me intrigued. It seems that they consider the attack finished as soon as the dice are rolled and modified. Would this be a fair assumption?

I'm also assuming you tried to tell them it's after the deal damage step. What was their response to this?

The other thing that gets me is the fact they say "they've always played it like this, so it must be right". If ever you feel that something is wrong and your opinion is going against the majority, don't let that stop you. Don't be afraid to speak up. Ask them to show you in the rulebook or FAQ where the relevant ruling is. This is usually the big downfall for the player that's doing things wrong. Sometimes you'll get a pig-headed ass that will just refuse to debate the issue, and if the TO doesn't know how to do it properly, then it's an uphill battle. But stick to the rulebook, it's your best defence in these situations.

The TO is the one who insists it is the correct way.

Then I highly recommend you give buddy a link to this post

Especially if he's a TO.

He's not a very good one

Probably won't matter. I'd say he likes the power trip he gets and makes him feel elite

Especially since he can claim he's won a tournament with his own rules

I hope he goes to another store tournament with that list, and try to make the claim there

I don't like that he is teaching other players how to play wrong

As stated above. Stand your ground man.

Your 110% right on this

There is no if and or but about it

Edit

Suggestion

Talk to him one more time

Show him the FAQ

Show him the two cards, fire control system and vessery

Have this post in your mobile (if you have it)

And try one more time

If he refuses, talk to the store owner (hopefully it's not him) and explain to him that this guy is actually playing this game wrong and you would like to see some things corrected and he refused and again have all proof ready

If that fails then I suggest stay away Sadly

I hope there is other area you Can go

I say you TO.

As a newer player you seem to have a better ability of comprehension

Might I ask where is this store?