If the ships in question belongs to the opponent, initiative shouldnt be a factor. The,mine layer chooses the mine and the ship when more than one are hit. That makes more sense to me.

Yeah agree Initiative wasn't a factor because the OP question seemed to be refering to ships from the same squad.

See from my point I'm ok with this result, in "actual" application if 2 ships were following another & it dropped Clusters out the back, there would be nothing stopping 'Kyle' hitting 1st mine being destroyed & then hitting the 2nd also if it was floating into his path, meaning 'Poe' escapes unscathed.

IMO you make the call first & take the chance which direction the mine is headed, the token is the blast radius not the size of the mine, if mine A happens to destroy 'Kyle', mine B can't suddenly change course because you saw him blow up, you are just dropping stuff out of the back of your ship they aren't Remote Control (To be honest if FFG didn't specify 1 ship, I'd be ok with all ships on the token taking a roll)

yes maybe its fluffy & probably I'm wrong, but there are plenty of moments of chance in this game (we roll dice) so I have no problem with one more on something like this

The problem with that is you open yourself up for an argument if you declare which ship is going to take the damage roll and then not resolve that token at that time. If you declare Kyle instead of Poe for the second mine, then roll for the Kyle on the first mine, you've broken the rules because you didn't finish resolving the declared mine, before rolling for the other. The rule is pre Clusters when bombs/mines were singular, so it is somewhat an oddity because they're multiples, all the point under bombs says is pick which ship if there are multiples on it, IMO this happens at the placement stage, not the resolution stage.

It's why you have to resolve each mine on it's own, one at a time . Agree they are resolved 1 at a time in the order of the player rolling choosing.

If I had Kyle and Poe in the positions described in the original post, and my opponent said " both of those on Kyle ", then he's incorrectly declaring the ship out of sequence. It's not his call to make until I declare that particular token is going to be resolved, and he also can't declare that for the token that only has Kyle on it. That one's obviously going to have only one ship to roll for. Agree he has no say on the singular ship token,

If Kyle got destroyed before moving to the two-ship token, then that would only leave Poe on that token and therefore he must roll for damage. It doesn't matter if the mine dropper prematurely declared Kyle's ship over Poe's and the other token was resolved first. It only matters when a token is chosen to be resolved and still has two ships on it. That's the only time the mine dropper gets a say in which ship suffers. If the two-ship token was chosen first and Kyle got destroyed, then the other token should also detonate because it was overlapped, but it would do no damage. See this is were I'm coming from, the fact that Mine A can do nothing because Kyle blew up on B 1st (if thats what the rolling player wanted to resolve first) should apply both ways IMO even if Poe is a valid "target" in the reverse situation. Its the chance you take.

Because both ship were mine in that example, initiative doesn't come into play here and the order of token resolution rests with me alone. He still gets to choose which ship on the two-ship token, but only after I've chosen to resolve that token. Initiative would only be a factor when both players have ships on the mine tokens. Agree on the initiative part 100%

I fully understand were you are coming from & don't disagree that you may be 100% correct & if your ruling was made by a TO I'd happily except that with no arguement, I'm just offering up an alternate view for debate.

In a game where attack already has so much more advantage, I just don't think they should get to wait & see before choosing on something that should be so random as dropping stuff uncontrollably out the back of their ship.

If the ships in question belongs to the opponent, initiative shouldnt be a factor. - Correct, it wouldn't be as it's only used to determine timing when BOTH players are affected.

The,mine layer chooses the mine and the ship when more than one are hit. That makes more sense to me. - Incorrect, the mine layer only chooses the ship in that case. The mines are chosen by the player whose ships are overlapping them.

The rule may be pre-Clusters, but I don't think that changes anything. If you drop a Cluster mine set in open space, then you have to wait for someone to overlap it. If, however, you drop the set on one or more ships (as is the case here), then you have to try and place all three tokens before you can figure out the resolution order. With any other bomb/mine the placement would be the beginning of the resolution, as you move straight into it. It's just more logical to place all three tokens, THEN start choosing the mine you want to resolve first.

See this is were I'm coming from, the fact that Mine A can do nothing because Kyle blew up on B 1st (if thats what the rolling player wanted to resolve first) should apply both ways IMO even if Poe is a valid "target" in the reverse situation. Its the chance you take.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. Depending on the order, there is a chance that you could damage/destroy both ships, or one could escape without having to roll for anything. If you choose the wrong token first, it could go bad for you. It's very much a chance you take. This is why it helps to break it down to one at a time. The fact that Mine A detonates doing nothing, is purely because it was still overlapped and the Cluster mine resolution has begun, so the card text says it detonates. I don't think it matters if Kyle was destroyed because he was overlapping Mine B also. You choose A then B, or B then A. It's a gamble.

If the ships in question belongs to the opponent, initiative shouldnt be a factor. - Correct, it wouldn't be as it's only used to determine timing when BOTH players are affected.

The,mine layer chooses the mine and the ship when more than one are hit. That makes more sense to me. - Incorrect, the mine layer only chooses the ship in that case. The mines are chosen by the player whose ships are overlapping them.

Even in that situation, why would iniative matter. Pilot skill, maybe, but that still makes little sense to me. Since the opponent picks the ships that receive damage when a mine hits multiple ships, why create a new mechanic for the order. The mines were laid at the same time. How do we address other situations of sameness, like attacking with 3 PS2 shipsn the aggressor picks the order. Just have the mine layer pick.

Initiative doesn't matter in this case as it's only one player's ships. Pilot skill would never be used as that's only for sorting the Activation Phase order and Combat Phase order. No one has created a "new" mechanic, it's always been there. It just hasn't been applied properly. I'm not saying this is a new mechanic. This is an extrapolation of several rules that have been in the game for some time. The advent of the Cluster mines has now caused a certain overlap of these rules for certain situations.

You ask "How do we address other situations of sameness?" One at a time. Three PS2 ships attack. You don't roll for them all at once, do you? No, one at a time, fully resolved before moving to the next one. Where a player has multiple things happening at the same time, he gets to choose the order.

The Mine Layer has only one thing to pick, and that's which ship of the two on a mine. He doesn't choose the order the mines detonate.

Even in that situation, why would iniative matter. Pilot skill, maybe, but that still makes little sense to me. Since the opponent picks the ships that receive damage when a mine hits multiple ships, why create a new mechanic for the order. The mines were laid at the same time. How do we address other situations of sameness, like attacking with 3 PS2 shipsn the aggressor picks the order. Just have the mine layer pick.

We all know initiative has nothing to do with the OP because same squad, but actually after thinking about it initiative has no effect on this situation & its possibly impossible to drop a mine directly on your own squad.....

e.g. If Mine A is dropped (by team 1) directly onto Team 1 Ship & Team 2 ship, now FFG clearly states the Dropper picks 1 ship that is hit if multiples overlap (only 1 ship can take damage in their view) then you would always pick the opposition players ship!, you can't both take damage (because its not a range style mine & FFG says pick 1 )

The rule may be pre-Clusters, but I don't think that changes anything. If you drop a Cluster mine set in open space, then you have to wait for someone to overlap it. If, however, you drop the set on one or more ships (as is the case here), then you have to try and place all three tokens before you can figure out the resolution order. With any other bomb/mine the placement would be the beginning of the resolution, as you move straight into it. It's just more logical to place all three tokens, THEN start choosing the mine you want to resolve first. Open space drops sort of don't come in to this because with only 1 ship moving at a time if is 100% impossible for more that 1 ship to overlap a mine in open space at any given moment, so the is 0% choice to be made in that situation.

See this is were I'm coming from, the fact that Mine A can do nothing because Kyle blew up on B 1st (if thats what the rolling player wanted to resolve first) should apply both ways IMO even if Poe is a valid "target" in the reverse situation. Its the chance you take.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. Depending on the order, there is a chance that you could damage/destroy both ships, or one could escape without having to roll for anything. If you choose the wrong token first, it could go bad for you. It's very much a chance you take. This is why it helps to break it down to one at a time. The fact that Mine A detonates doing nothing, is purely because it was still overlapped and the Cluster mine resolution has begun, so the card text says it detonates. I don't think it matters if Kyle was destroyed because he was overlapping Mine B also. You choose A then B, or B then A. It's a gamble.

To be honest after more thought in this situation as the defender you would always pick Mine B to resolve first anyway....because it actually puts the gamble on the attacker (which is were I was headed with the initial thought)

Pick B 1st

1. picks Kyle - Mine A may achieve nothing if B gets him or he's used both on Kyle even if it doesn't

2. picks Poe - Kyle's chances just went up 50% because only A can hurt him now

Pick A 1st & Kyle dies you are giving him a free kick to target Poe with B

....because it actually puts the gamble on the attacker (which is were I was headed with the initial thought)

Pick B 1st

1. picks Kyle - Mine A may achieve nothing if B gets him or he's used both on Kyle even if it doesn't

2. picks Poe - Kyle's chances just went up 50% because only A can hurt him now

Pick A 1st & Kyle dies you are giving him a free kick to target Poe with B

You've got it in a nut shell.

And that's why it's so important to resolve them one at a time. And yes, it does make the mine dropper have to take the gamble. From the Kyle/Poe player's point of view, B would be the logical choice to start with. Then it's up to the dropper to gamble on whether or not to pick Poe and spare Kyle in the hope that Mine A might take him out, or pick Kyle thinking if B doesn't do it, hopefully A will.

If you pick A first, you're quite likely to take damage to both ships.

Haha after all that we both had the same end result in mind, I was just looking at it differently (got your thought process once I realised that picking B first would effectively put us in the same position)

Yeah, I was trying to word it so it was concise, but not confusing. I nearly confused myself there once or twice. But the end result is to resolve them carefully and don't jump ahead of the process. If I had Vassal, I'd probably have used illustrations from that as it would have been a whole lot clearer and easier.

Can anyone put the 3 obvious scenarios in one post with option for resolving. I am still not clear on 3 mines, 1 mine hits opponent ship A, mine 2 hits opponent ship A and B.

My main initial confusion was that the attacker was gaining an advantage by selecting at time of resolution, but the defender selecting a certain mine counter acts that & forces him to make a decision earlier instead in how Parravon was explaining it to us.

Can anyone put the 3 obvious scenarios in one post with option for resolving. I am still not clear on 3 mines, 1 mine hits opponent ship A, mine 2 hits opponent ship A and B.

I'll try: Kyle (Ship A) & Poe (Ship B) & Mines 1, 2 & 3 (obviously mine 3 doesn't come into play in the original question & doesn't detonate till overlapped in a later turn)

Scenario A . Defender chooses to resolve Mine 1 first:

1. Rolls on Kyle

-) Kyle is fully destroyed - when resolving Mine 2 no choice to be made really as Poe is the obvious choice so he'd roll on Mine 2.

-) Kyle lives then:

2. Attacker must choose Kyle or Poe is the overlapping ship & roll accordingly.

Scenario B . Defender choose to resolve Mine 2 first:

1. Attacker selects Kyle or Poe:

2. If Kyle - rolls on Mine 2

-) Kyle lives - Kyle Rolls for Mine 1 detonation aswell

-) Kyle fully destroyed - Mine 1 still detonates because it had Kyle overlap, but much like doing excess damage to a ship that has reached its hull card limit doesn't effect him.

3. If Poe - rolls on Mine 2

-) takes resolved damage if any - then Mine 1 detonates on Kyle & he rolls

So most of the time you are going to want to select the token with the overlap 1st to force the attacker to choose early & not give him the obvious answer by selecting the singular overlapped token 1st

Scenario C: Kyle on Mine 1 & 2 and Attacker has a ship (Fel) on Mine 2 also.

Both players have ships overlapping the mines, so the player with initiative ( which might not necessarily be the mine layer ) decides which token is to be resolved first because it's a timing issue involving both players.

The rest flows along as BigBounty has described. Note this is the only time initiative comes into play.

With your Scenario C though as I said further up though...If its dropped (by team 1) directly onto Fel (Team 1) & Kyle (Team 2), now the rules clearly states the Dropper picks 1 ship that is hit if multiples overlap (only 1 ship can take damage in their view & it doesn't single out only enemy overlaps) then you would always pick the opposition players ship!, you can't both take damage (because its not a range style mine & FFG says pick 1 )

I still don't think Initiative does come into that scenario, because its not a timing issue... the rulebook clearly gives the dropper the right to choose the ship, not a defender with initiative. (so he would pick Kyle)

But that would still create the argument of the dropper wanting to make sure the token with Fel goes first so he can pick Kyle and avoid damage to his favourite Interceptor. To which the opponent would want to choose the other token first in the hope that if Kyle is destroyed, then Fel will get some damage also. Remember there are two mine tokens in play here and both players are affected by the dropping of the Cluster Mines, two of which are detonating at the same time. Thus we have a timing issue - who gets to choose a token first? The player with initiative would decide which token gets resolved first. After that, the rules are clear.

If the Fel player has initiative, clearly he'd choose the Fel/Kyle mine token and then being the dropper, he gets to choose the ship (Kyle).

If the Kyle player has initiative, it's in his best interest to choose the Kyle mine token. If Kyle is destroyed by that token, then Fel must roll as he'd be the only ship left on a token yet to be resolved.

Yeah I get where you are coming from on the opposing players ship angle, you're saying Kyle is removed from field after mine 1...but because as you say though its happening at the same time though, my question is:

1) Is Kyle actually removed from play when mine 1 goes off? or is he still a valid overlap (just not one that you'd choose if destroyed) & not removed till mine 2 goes off?

I based picking Poe off the fact you just wouldn't pick a destroyed Kyle in that situation (not that it wasn't an option, because he still triggers the single overlap if destroyed on the multiple 1st, so shouldn't he still trigger the multiple overlap even if destroyed on the single?) & he was removed when all same time effects (ie. both tokens) had been resolved, probably where I'm going wrong.

1) Is Kyle actually removed from play when mine 1 goes off? or is he still a valid overlap (just not one that you'd choose if destroyed) & not removed till mine 2 goes off?

He would be removed befor resolving the next mine token. When a ship has a number of damage cards equal to or greater then its hull value it is immediatley destroyed. The rules are very clear on this. The one exception they state is the "simultaneous attack"-rule. But that one only applyes to attacks in the combat phase. Bombs are not attacks, and for the most part will be droped in the activation phase rather then the combat phase. Granted some abilitys could let you drop the action style bombs in the combat phase, but they are still not attacks.

Immediately! That is a word that is really important in this scenario. And I think most have overlooked this in the OP.

When you drop the cluster mine, your first place the center token. Now the rules reference state you immediately detonate the token if it overlaps one or more ships. The dropper decides which ship if there are more than one. Then you discard the token. This would basically prevent you from dropping the other two token, but if we accept that we hold off discarding the token until we have placed the remaining tokens, we can now move on to dropping the next token and repeat the process.

So initiative never comes into the equation. The order in which the tokens are dropped does. The important part is that you resolve the detonation of the token immediately when it overlaps a ship.