We should have gotten a picture...

Anyway, last night Miranda went right through my formation and deployed Cluster Mines. Mine A was under Kyle, Mine B was under Kyle and Poe. Kyle was at 2 hull; Poe was untouched.

The question: does the Miranda player declare which ship Mine B will target before or after resolving Mine A? i.e. do you declare all targets before rolling any dice or do you declare and resolve the mines in order? (assumed dropper chooses order of detonation)

How it played out in our game: the mine-dropper said "both of those on Kyle." We rolled the first one and got double-hit, so Kyle exploded, but then we realized he maybe didn't need to declare Mine B until after mine A had been rolled for, so we allowed the other mine to target Poe. (it had no bearing on our game as the mine whiffed, but it's an interesting rules corner that I don't know has been resolved.)

I'd say you have to resolve each token by itself, so even though the player said 'both on Kyle' he wasn't a valid target for the 2nd token. So that player should of been able to pick a new target since Kyle was no longer there.

I don't think there is an official answer to this other than the rule that when multiple effects happen simultaneously, if one player controls all of them, that player can freely choose the order. Therefore, I would say the player who dropped the Cluster Mine should resolve each mine token individually, in any order they like, getting to see the results of each before dealing with the next one.

An issue with the mine, or really any bomb, is that once they are dropped do they still have a controller? If two sides each drop a proximity mine on top of each other and then a ship goes over it who is it that controls the mine that goes off?

The question: does the Miranda player declare which ship Mine B will target before or after resolving Mine A? i.e. do you declare all targets before rolling any dice or do you declare and resolve the mines in order? (assumed dropper chooses order of detonation)

How it played out in our game: the mine-dropper said "both of those on Kyle." We rolled the first one and got double-hit, so Kyle exploded, but then we realized he maybe didn't need to declare Mine B until after mine A had been rolled for, so we allowed the other mine to target Poe. (it had no bearing on our game as the mine whiffed, but it's an interesting rules corner that I don't know has been resolved.)

You can't 'target' anyone with a Cluster Mine. It's the player that overlapped the token that rolls for damage, not the owner of the mine. Here's the relevant wording.

Cluster Mine Token: When one of these bomb tokens detonates, the ship that moved through or overlapped that token rolls 2 attack dice and suffers all damage (hit) rolled. Then discard that token.

So your opponent erroneously tried to 'target' Kyle with two tokens, when actually you should have rolled for the damage. And this should be done one token at a time. If Kyle had survived Mine A, then your opponent would then have had the choice to pick Kyle or Poe for Mine B ( but not both ), but as only one ship can cause the mine to detonate, it's only that ship that you roll for and the other escapes unharmed.

It's always the owner of the ship that overlapped the token that rolls for the damage, unless there's more than one ship involved.

Also note, that it's only (hit) results that count, not any (critical) results.

The mine layer chooses which ship is affected if two are hit at once, not the receiver.

You can't 'target' anyone with a Cluster Mine.

that's an interesting interpretation of this ruling:

"If a ship drops a Proximity Mine so that it overlaps multiple ships, the player dropping the bomb chooses which ship suffers the effects of the Proximity Mine detonating."

The rest of your post assumed we didn't know the basic rules of how bombs work and addressed perceived mistakes where none were made, so it is irrelevant.

The question still stands if he declares one at a time or all at once.

edit: I was wrong, I checked the rules.

My guess would be controlling player picks each token in turn and resolves them, choosing the order to resolve them and which ships they will target.

You can't 'target' anyone with a Cluster Mine.

that's an interesting interpretation of this ruling:

"If a ship drops a Proximity Mine so that it overlaps multiple ships, the player dropping the bomb chooses which ship suffers the effects of the Proximity Mine detonating."

The rest of your post assumed we didn't know the basic rules of how bombs work and addressed perceived mistakes where none were made, so it is irrelevant.

Well, sorry for answering your question. But I stand by my 'interpretation' because mines and bombs aren't an attack, so you don't declare a 'target' as such. And I assumed you didn't know the basic rules of how bombs work because if you did, you wouldn't have asked the question in the first place.

There was a mistake made, albeit minor. The K-wing player declared " both of those on Kyle " but he didn't have that option where Kyle was the only ship on one of the tokens. There's no requirement in the rules to declare which ship of the two-ship mine suffers the effect, before resolving the single-ship mine. The owner of the ships on the mine tokens would get to choose the resolution order for the mine detonations, as you can only resolve one at a time before moving on.

Quite often someone will ask a question here, get a brief answer, and still be left wondering, whereas a little more detail in the answer helps not only the original poster but other readers that may have had a similar situation. But if you didn't want the question answered....

edit: I was wrong, I checked the rules.

My guess would be controlling player picks each token in turn and resolves them, choosing the order to resolve them and which ships they will target.

edit: I was wrong, I checked the rules.

My guess would be controlling player picks each token in turn and resolves them, choosing the order to resolve them and which ships they will target.

but do they have the option to wait for one to resolve before declaring the next.

The only one that needs to be declared is the token with two ships, and the choice of which ship is made when that token is chosen to be resolved. You can't resolve two at the same time. It has to be one at a time, and the player with the ships on the tokens gets to choose the order in which he will resolve the tokens.

Owner of mine choses ship if same token has multiple ships on it.

Owner of ship choses order of resolving mines when there are multiple tokens with ships on them.

Correct so far?

Then what is I'm a clumsy bastard who dorps a cluster so that it overlaps both my own and my opponents ships?

Will the order of tokens to resolve then be dependent on initiative? So all tokens with ships belonging to the player with initiative are resolved befor the ones with only the other players ships on them?

Owner of mine choses ship if same token has multiple ships on it. - Yes

Owner of ship choses order of resolving mines when there are multiple tokens with ships on them.

Correct so far?

Then what is I'm a clumsy bastard who dorps a cluster so that it overlaps both my own and my opponents ships?

Will the order of tokens to resolve then be dependent on initiative? - Yes So all tokens with ships belonging to the player with initiative are resolved before the ones with only the other players ships on them? - Yes

If you drop a bomb or mine and one token has one of your ships as well as one of your opponent's, then the rules say the choice falls to the person that dropped the bomb or mine token, which would be the clumsy b#$&*#@ in this case.

If both players have effects that resolve at the same time, the player with initiative resolves all of his effects first.

Example: You have initiative and your K-wing drops a Cluster Mine Set on a tight group of four ships. Mine A overlaps an enemy ship, Mine B overlaps a friendly ship, and Mine C overlaps one of each. The player with Initiative (you) would resolve Mine B first and roll for your ship. Then moving onto Mine C, the obvious choice is to make the enemy ship roll instead of yours. B and C have now been resolved, and the player without Initiative now resolves Mine A and rolls for his ship.

It probably doesn't matter whether or not you choose Mine B before Mine C, or do it the other way around. But those are the mines that will affect your ships, so you would resolve them before Mine A because you have initiative. Personally, I don't think it would make much difference what the order was for the resolution, as each mine has to be resolved if there's a ship on it. Having initiative isn't likely to change anything in this case.

IMO the "controlling player" only had one decision to make, decide which ship was on Mine B. No where does it say that the player gets to decide which token goes off first/pick an order/wait & see, its not an attack.

So my call would be:

1. Mine is dropped

2. Player makes calls on all multiple ship overlaps

3. Roll dice & resolve effects for detonations one after another

But the mine does potentially have a target if multiple ships are under it, so what happens when the target is now invalid after thefirst because said first roll destroyed the ship.

A mine overlapping multiple ships will only affect one ship, because as soon as that ship has rolled for possible damage, the token is removed.

Missing the point - if 1 mine is touching ship A and another mine is touching ship Aand B, mine 1 could remove ship A from the board. What happens next seems to be determined by when you make the decision between ship A or B.

Missing the point - if 1 mine is touching ship A and another mine is touching ship Aand B, mine 1 could remove ship A from the board. What happens next seems to be determined by when you make the decision between ship A or B.

If A and B belong to opposing players, then initiative would determine who gets to resolve which token first. But you must resolve them one at a time , which means the player with initiative chooses which token to be resolved first, rolls for damage, then the second token can be resolved. You can't declare which ship on the two-ship mine will suffer the effect, then roll for the other mine first, because you've started to resolve the two-ship mine simply by declaring which ship will suffer. Once you've made that choice of ship, you must carry that resolution through to conclusion before moving to the next mine.

You don't choose ships first, you choose the mine token to be resolved. And because two players are affected at the same time, initiative dictates which player chooses the order of mine resolution. You might have initiative, but if you didn't drop the mine over the two ships, you still don't get to choose which ship, but you do choose which mine resolves first.

Missing the point - if 1 mine is touching ship A and another mine is touching ship Aand B, mine 1 could remove ship A from the board. What happens next seems to be determined by when you make the decision between ship A or B.

If A and B belong to opposing players, then initiative would determine who gets to resolve which token first. But you must resolve them one at a time , which means the player with initiative chooses which token to be resolved first, rolls for damage, then the second token can be resolved. You can't declare which ship on the two-ship mine will suffer the effect, then roll for the other mine first, because you've started to resolve the two-ship mine simply by declaring which ship will suffer. Once you've made that choice of ship, you must carry that resolution through to conclusion before moving to the next mine.

You don't choose ships first, you choose the mine token to be resolved. And because two players are affected at the same time, initiative dictates which player chooses the order of mine resolution. You might have initiative, but if you didn't drop the mine over the two ships, you still don't get to choose which ship, but you do choose which mine resolves first.

This! You don't declare all your ships shooting before resolving the first.

So 1) the player with initiative chooses the mine, that makes sense.

Then 2) the player who dropped the token declares which ship the bomb will resolve against.

3) resolve the effect of the token

4) back to player with initiative who picks the next token.

Absolutely!

Missing the point - if 1 mine is touching ship A and another mine is touching ship Aand B, mine 1 could remove ship A from the board. What happens next seems to be determined by when you make the decision between ship A or B.

See from my point I'm ok with this result, in "actual" application if 2 ships were following another & it dropped Clusters out the back, there would be nothing stopping 'Kyle' hitting 1st mine being destroyed & then hitting the 2nd also if it was floating into his path, meaning 'Poe' escapes unscathed.

IMO you make the call first & take the chance which direction the mine is headed, the token is the blast radius not the size of the mine, if mine A happens to destroy 'Kyle', mine B can't suddenly change course because you saw him blow up, you are just dropping stuff out of the back of your ship they aren't Remote Control (To be honest if FFG didn't specify 1 ship, I'd be ok with all ships on the token taking a roll)

yes maybe its fluffy & probably I'm wrong, but there are plenty of moments of chance in this game (we roll dice) so I have no problem with one more on something like this

If the ships in question belongs to the opponent, initiative shouldnt be a factor. The,mine layer chooses the mine and the ship when more than one are hit. That makes more sense to me.

Missing the point - if 1 mine is touching ship A and another mine is touching ship Aand B, mine 1 could remove ship A from the board. What happens next seems to be determined by when you make the decision between ship A or B.

See from my point I'm ok with this result, in "actual" application if 2 ships were following another & it dropped Clusters out the back, there would be nothing stopping 'Kyle' hitting 1st mine being destroyed & then hitting the 2nd also if it was floating into his path, meaning 'Poe' escapes unscathed.

IMO you make the call first & take the chance which direction the mine is headed, the token is the blast radius not the size of the mine, if mine A happens to destroy 'Kyle', mine B can't suddenly change course because you saw him blow up, you are just dropping stuff out of the back of your ship they aren't Remote Control (To be honest if FFG didn't specify 1 ship, I'd be ok with all ships on the token taking a roll)

yes maybe its fluffy & probably I'm wrong, but there are plenty of moments of chance in this game (we roll dice) so I have no problem with one more on something like this

The problem with that is you open yourself up for an argument if you declare which ship is going to take the damage roll and then not resolve that token at that time. If you declare Kyle instead of Poe for the second mine, then roll for the Kyle on the first mine, you've broken the rules because you didn't finish resolving the declared mine, before rolling for the other.

It's why you have to resolve each mine on it's own, one at a time .

If I had Kyle and Poe in the positions described in the original post, and my opponent said " both of those on Kyle ", then he's incorrectly declaring the ship out of sequence. It's not his call to make until I declare that particular token is going to be resolved, and he also can't declare that for the token that only has Kyle on it. That one's obviously going to have only one ship to roll for.

If Kyle got destroyed before moving to the two-ship token, then that would only leave Poe on that token and therefore he must roll for damage. It doesn't matter if the mine dropper prematurely declared Kyle's ship over Poe's and the other token was resolved first. It only matters when a token is chosen to be resolved and still has two ships on it. That's the only time the mine dropper gets a say in which ship suffers. If the two-ship token was chosen first and Kyle got destroyed, then the other token should also detonate because it was overlapped, but it would do no damage.

Because both ship were mine in that example, initiative doesn't come into play here and the order of token resolution rests with me alone. He still gets to choose which ship on the two-ship token, but only after I've chosen to resolve that token. Initiative would only be a factor when both players have ships on the mine tokens.

If the ships in question belongs to the opponent, initiative shouldnt be a factor. - Correct, it wouldn't be as it's only used to determine timing when BOTH players are affected.

The,mine layer chooses the mine and the ship when more than one are hit. That makes more sense to me. - Incorrect, the mine layer only chooses the ship in that case. The mines are chosen by the player whose ships are overlapping them.