For cards like this...

"All characters get -1 willpower until the end of the round"

I believe this strictly means

"All characters in play right at this moment get -1 willpower until the end of the round. Characters that come and go later during this round are not affected."

Is that correct? Is their evidence showing this in one way or another?

Even characters that enter play later in the round will be affected.

For my reasoning, check out this card:

And this clarification from Caleb:

Treacherous Fog : [...] Even if there are no locations in the staging area at the time Treacherous Fog is revealed, locations will still get +1 threat strength until the end of the phase. That means if a location is added to the staging area after Treacherous Fog is revealed, it will get +1 threat until the end of the phase. [...]

http://www.cardgamedb.com/forums/index.php?/topic/1702-official-nate-rule-clarifications/?p=86990

Sometimes cards use the wording "each character in play gets -1..." and sometimes cards do not specify "in play" or "currently in play." A card that is worded like your example will create a lasting effect that impacts any character, whether they were in play when it hit the table or not. Consider this entry from the FAQ:

"Q: If a location is revealed after Treacherous Fog (CORE 118) was revealed during the same quest phase, does the revealed location get +1 $ from the “When Revealed” effect on Treacherous Fog? A: Yes. The “When Revealed” effect on Treacherous Fog creates a lasting effect until the end of the phase that affects each location in the staging area. This is different from Driven by Shadow (CORE 92) which uses the language “currently in the staging area” when it is revealed and only affects enemies and locations in the staging area at the time it is revealed."

And for reference, Treacherous Fog says: When Revealed: Each location in the staging area gets +1 Threat until the end of the phase. Then, each player with a threat of 35 or higher chooses and discards 1 card from his hand.

edit: beaten by Seastan at a photo finish!

I was just about to reply with the same thing...

However, does this also mean Lay of Nimrodel, Blood of Numenor, and Gondorian Fire do not work the way we expected? Is there a significant difference between the two situations. None of the 3 player cards listed say "gets +1 X for each resource 'currently'..."

EDIT: I just found the answer to my own question in these forums:

Official response:

Blood of Numenor is a triggered effect that lasts until the end of the phase. The additional defense it provides is based on the number of resources in the attached hero's resource pool at the time it is triggered. So, if Aragorn had 5 resources in his pool when you triggered Blood of Numenor, he would get +4 defense until the end of the phase. If you paid 2 more resources from his pool to play For Gondor! after that, he would still have +4 defense from Blood of Numenor.
Cheers,
Caleb

So, a different question remains - do we have an explanation as to why these two interactions (player cards like Blood of Numenor versus treacheries like Treacherous Fog) are different?

edit: beaten by Seastan at a photo finish!

I'm just glad GrandSpleen the Rulemaster agrees with me on this one!

I was just about to reply with the same thing...

However, does this also mean Lay of Nimrodel, Blood of Numenor, and Gondorian Fire do not work the way we expected? Is there a significant difference between the two situations. None of the 3 player cards listed say "gets +1 X for each resource 'currently'..."

Here is an old ruling about Blood of Numenor:

"Blood of Numenor is a triggered effect that lasts until the end of the phase. The additional defense it provides is based on the number of resources in the attached hero's resource pool at the time it is triggered. So, if Aragorn had 5 resources in his pool when you triggered Blood of Numenor, he would get +4 defense until the end of the phase. If you paid 2 more resources from his pool to play For Gondor! after that, he would still have +4 defense from Blood of Numenor.

Cheers,

Caleb"

From the thread here .

Now, how are Blood of Numenor and, say, Treacherous Fog different? I can venture a guess.

Blood of Numenor:

Attach to a Gondor or Dúnedain hero. Action: Spend 1 resource from attached hero's resource pool to give attached hero +1 Defense for each resource in its resource pool until the end of the phase. (Limit once per phase.)

Gondorian Fire:

Attach to a Gondor or Dúnedain hero. Action: Spend 1 resource from attached hero's resource pool to give attached hero +1 Attack for each resource in its resource pool until the end of the phase. (Limit once per phase.)

Lay of Nimrodel:

Action: Choose a Spirit hero. Until the end of the phase, that hero gets +1 Willpower for each resource in its resource pool.

Treacherous Fog:

When Revealed: Each location in the staging area gets +1 Threat until the end of the phase. Then, each player with a threat of 35 or higher chooses and discards 1 card from his hand.

-----

OK grammar nerd time!

BoN and GF use the infinitive "give" which is perhaps used here to denote a one-time effect. Per the ruling above, the amount of defense/attack is calculated at the time that you trigger the effect, and doesn't change if the number of resources in your resource pool changes.

Treacherous Fog uses the simple present "gets." Per the ruling, this is a lasting effect and will impact other cards coming into play. Present tense is often used to describe 'habitual' actions that are not one-time occurrences ("He goes to the library every week," or "I give my proceeds to charity" [compare: "Give your proceeds to charity."])

That's really shaky though. And in that interpretation, Lay of Nimrodel would actually function like Treacherous Fog. Alternative explanation: there's an unspoken rule that cards using the resource pool as a basis for calculation never do re-calculations if the pool changes!

So, a different question remains - do we have an explanation as to why these two interactions (player cards like Blood of Numenor versus treacheries like Treacherous Fog) are different?

I guess you could say that "effects that alter any number of characters' (or enemies'/locations') stats based on a specified conditional value have their stats altered based on the conditional value at the time the effect is triggered and are not recalculated even if the conditional value is later altered. However, if an effect alters any number of characters' (or enemies'/locations') stats without conditional value the value is recalculated as necessary and applicable to those characters (or enemies/locations) regardless of whether or not they were in play at the time the effect was triggered (unless otherwise specified via card effect)."

Does that cover everything?

Edit: Actually, I don't think this works. Aren't there Forced effects on certain enemies that say "gets +1 Threat for each enemy in the staging area". So this only applies to When Revealed and Actions, but not Forced effects? ugh. I can't think of a clean sentence to explain it away

That's really shaky though. And in that interpretation, Lay of Nimrodel would actually function like Treacherous Fog.

Yeah, the only reason I don't like that interpretation is because then that means Lay of Nimrodel doesn't function the same way as the attachments. Perhaps that was the intent, though.

Both good explanations, but maybe we should get a clarification on "give" vs "gets" just in case the designers really were trying to make a distinction.

Both good explanations, but maybe we should get a clarification on "give" vs "gets" just in case the designers really were trying to make a distinction.

I don't think distinguishing between gets and give is helpful only because it means we have to constantly ask the question whenever they use a different term...for example when exactly does the term "Raise" happen in the case of Dark Pursuit:

When Revealed: Raise the total Threat of the staging area by 1 for each Scout enemy in play. If there are no Scout enemies in play, Dark Pursuit gains surge.

There may be other cards that use slightly different sentence structure (give, gets, raise etc.) and if we really need definitions for each of them it gets messy fast I think...I think the easiest solution would be to have them errata Gondorian Fire and Blood of Numenor (and if applicable Lay of Nimrodel) to have "currently" somewhere in the text. Then there would be no confusion.

for example when exactly does the term "Raise" happen in the case of Dark Pursuit:

When Revealed: Raise the total Threat of the staging area by 1 for each Scout enemy in play. If there are no Scout enemies in play, Dark Pursuit gains surge.

I think in the case of Dark Pursuit it is meant to be a one time effect. "Raise" is something you do once rather than a passive effect like "gets ___ until". See a card like Burnt Homestead. "When Revealed: Raise each player's threat by the number of damage tokens on Dead Villagers." If you add another dead villager later on do you have to raise everyone's threat? I believe not.

I was just asking Caleb about Lay of Nimrodel, and now he's saying that Blood of Numenor /Gondorian Fire/Lay of Nimrodel all are phase long effects that work similar to passive effects and get recalculated as needed. I'm going to show him the prior ruling, I'll post what I learn!

I presume that would mean that if Blood of Numenor gets discarded by a shadow effect you would lose the bonus altogether? That'd be a rough ruling reversal.

Ignore the part where Caleb yells at me, but here it is guys. New ruling for all of these cards.

When I asked if you had any prior rulings that you were referencing, this is what I was asking for. My current ruling does indeed contradict this previous one, but my current ruling is the correct one. We long ago established that encounter card effects that last until “the end of the phase” or “end of the round” must be recalculated when the board state changes, so it follows that it must be true for player card effects as well.

I don't think you'd lose the bonus though Seastan, because Blood of Numenor already triggered it's phase long effect.

Ignore the part where Caleb yells at me, but here it is guys. New ruling for all of these cards.

When I asked if you had any prior rulings that you were referencing, this is what I was asking for. My current ruling does indeed contradict this previous one, but my current ruling is the correct one. We long ago established that encounter card effects that last until “the end of the phase” or “end of the round” must be recalculated when the board state changes, so it follows that it must be true for player card effects as well.

Thanks for getting an official ruling. I think this makes everything a lot more consistent which rests well with my mind. No more nightmares (except Nightmare scenarios of course) about how to resolve Lay of Nimrodel.

Yeah, at first I was thinking "Oh boy, what a shocking ruling!" But there's a good chunk of the time where this works for you too. I think this was how I originally played Blood and Fire too, until I saw the prior ruling.

Ignore the part where Caleb yells at me, but here it is guys. New ruling for all of these cards.

When I asked if you had any prior rulings that you were referencing, this is what I was asking for. My current ruling does indeed contradict this previous one, but my current ruling is the correct one. We long ago established that encounter card effects that last until “the end of the phase” or “end of the round” must be recalculated when the board state changes, so it follows that it must be true for player card effects as well.

Yikes. I mean I have 200+ games so I hate when I ask an 'obvious' question... and then some new ruling kinda thing comes out .. oops.

So... all these things are lasting effects... okay.

I have to say, do not conclude that the player cards we are talking about are affected though.

Take Blood of Numenor:

"Attach to a Gondor or Dúnedain hero. Action: Spend 1 resource from attached hero's resource pool to give attached hero +1 Defense for each resource in its resource pool until the end of the phase. (Limit once per phase.)"

Okay. When you spend one resourec, you give that hero (he has already a defense value of D) +1d*(resources-now-in-pool). That can't be a lasting thing. It didn't say "Spend 1 resource to give attached Hero the following text: "+1 defense for each..."".

... or is Caleb's "it must follow for player cards" really thought out and all these wordings are now to be interpreted as a "lasting effect"?

For clarity, the card I was referring to is http://hallofbeorn.com/Cards/Details/Murmurs-of-Dread-TSoE

(

I can see how most readings of that card would agree with "Oh sure, if that's a lasting effect.. I get it." But it isn't "give" or "get"... which truly reads like a one time thing!

So... all these things are lasting effects... okay.

I have to say, do not conclude that the player cards we are talking about are affected though.

Take Blood of Numenor:

"Attach to a Gondor or Dúnedain hero. Action: Spend 1 resource from attached hero's resource pool to give attached hero +1 Defense for each resource in its resource pool until the end of the phase . (Limit once per phase.)"

They are affected. They are affected because of the part at the end which I put in bold. Any effect that lasts until the end or beginning of something will constantly be recalculated until it reaches the specified timing.

I will get you my exact question, because I asked specifically about Fire/Blood. Make no mistake, they are absolutely affected.

Just to clarify:

Q: So do Blood of Numenor and Gondorian Fire work the same way? They are also "until the end of the phase" effects, so they too have to be recalculated whenever resources in that characters pool change? Does the effect on those cards give a static bonus to attack or defense at the time of activation, or are those two operated the same way as Lay of Nimrodel?

A: Any card effect that lasts until “the end of the phase” or “the end of the round” is a lasting effect and must be recalculated anytime the board state changes. This includes Blood of Numenor and Gondorian Fire.

I then went on to point out the prior ruling, which is where the other answer came from.

I think the new ruling makes Blood and Fire easier to keep track of, so is probably a good one. Having to remember how many resources were on a hero at some time in the past was annoying.

So to be clear, these cards...

• For Gondor
• Faramir
• Nenya
• Blood of Numenor
• Gondorian Fire
• Rear Guard
• Astonishing Speed
• We Do Not Sleep
• Untroubled by Darkness
• Mutual Accord
• Trained for War
• Against the Shadow
• Lay of Nimrodel
• Charge of the Rohirrim
• Horn's Cry
• Smoke Rings

affect characters coming into play during the phase the effect is triggered (or are otherwise constantly being recalculated), even if it is after the card is played.
(some odd ones: Trained for war, this means if a side quest suddenly becomes current quest... it would gain battle)
(lay of nimrodel.. wonder how many realize now that it recalculates )

Sorry for my english, but as i understand, those examples are correct?:

1. If you play Lay of Nimrodel in an hero with 12 resources, and a treachery removes all resources from heroes... bonus of willpower (bye LN) of that hero is 0?

2. If you play Blood of Gondor in a hero with 12 resoruces, and a shadow effect removes all resources from that hero... bonus of BG is 0?

Sorry for my english, but as i understand, those examples are correct?:

1. If you play Lay of Nimrodel in an hero with 12 resources, and a treachery removes all resources from heroes... bonus of willpower (bye LN) of that hero is 0?

2. If you play Blood of Gondor in a hero with 12 resoruces, and a shadow effect removes all resources from that hero... bonus of BG is 0?

It seems yes, that is what happens, based on the recent ruling quoted above.