my group aquired a second ship. They have no desire to keep 2 ships and now plan on selling the ship.

I am looking at ways to not give them as much for a ship.

As it is i am figuring base price halved with a higher percentage based on sucesses.
I am looking for ways to nickle and dime them out of credits with out outright screwing them over.

Taxes hit them for around 20%

10% finders fee for broker

any other ideas?

The buyer has a mechanic check it over and calls it a lemon. There are a bunch of issues just under the surface that will be costly to repair in the near future. Sure, it has been running fine for the PCs, but who knows how much longer it'll be flying high. The buyer will only take it if the party agrees to pay for the repairs. If they don't, well, the buyer will spread the word over what's wrong with the ship and no one will buy it for the asking price.

Come up with a list of items that could be functional but on their last legs. It's early and my scifi brain hasn't turned on yet, but here would be some car examples. timing belt, fuel pump, basic maintenance (oil change, coolent, tires, ect).

If they have been in any space battles, evidence of the fight might drive down the price too. "That hull scorching looks like it was done by an Imperial ship. Who knows what kind of hidden damge could be just under the hull plating. I'd have to spend a month tearing it apart to properly inspect it. I can't take is as is... Or, I could take it off your hands for another 20% off..."

How did they acquire it and to whom are they selling? I imagine taxes won't be a factor (unless they literally bought the ship from a lot), and in its place the much more sticky factor of the ship's history.

Does it have a clean transponder? Was it stolen? Is the InterGalactic Banking Clan sending skip tracers after it to repossess it? Are there gaps in its BoSS documentation?

Regardless of modifications or weaponry, a buy will list them as a negative. Think "Pawn Stars". If there's no advanced, illegal/restricted shields and weaponry, the buyer will say, "Look, I can only offer you [asking price less 50%]. This is the rim. Nobody is stupid enough to fly this vulnerable thing. I'm gonna need to install assault laser cannons, concussion missile launchers, hull bracing for a turret mount, military-grade shields...and then pay to have someone install all of that before I can sell it. That all takes a lot of money, and I still need to put food on the table too!"

If it *does* have those sort of bells and whistles..."Look, I'm doing you a favor just meeting you. ISB sees me here even talking to you, I get put on a list. You've got so many illegal modifications on this thing that no other upstanding buyer will give it a second glance. You get caught in this thing...hoo boy...you'll be retirement age before they're done typing up all your charges. I'll tell you what, though, it'll take a lot of re-work to get this thing into a sellable condition, but I know the right people to make that happen. I'll take it off your hands for [asking price less 50%]. What?! Don't act insulted. You know anyone else who is friends with a slicer that can hack a back door into the BoSS mainframe on Teth? You think that kind of record manipulation is easy? Or cheap? Look, I'm only offering that much because you guys seem like reasonable beings, and I happen to personally like the old Corellian models. You go down to Truthful Toryl's lot and if he even makes you an offer, it'll be even lower than me, since he's gonna come to me for the BoSS wiping...*and* you'll have to listen to some of his boring stories!"

I would have thought 1/3rd of new price would be about right for the base cost before Negotiation rolls.

Do they have plans for where the money's going? Is there anything you would want them to spend money on? If so you could say any advantages on the Negotiation roll above grants a discount on purchases in that area.

"Decent enough ship - when it was new." [sucks teeth] "Bit pricy though, given the condition. Your other ship looks like it could use some work, too. I could help you with that if the price on this one was something more reasonable..."

OR

"I'm sorry, I can't raise that kind of dough at the minute. But the word's out that you're looking to settle a score with Dev Conran - would his partner's current alias and address on [Nar Shaddaa] be worth anything to you?"

This is why I never bother selling things in systems that impose unrealistic limits to amounts of money available. If you're going to be this draconian about selling equipment (ships, specifically), don't be surprised if players don't sell -anything- and then complain about how little money they have. If I can only get 5% of the value of an item, what's the point of selling it? Even if I only use it once a year, it still provides more value than the 5% of purchase cost...

This is why I never bother selling things in systems that impose unrealistic limits to amounts of money available. If you're going to be this draconian about selling equipment (ships, specifically), don't be surprised if players don't sell -anything- and then complain about how little money they have. If I can only get 5% of the value of an item, what's the point of selling it? Even if I only use it once a year, it still provides more value than the 5% of purchase cost...

Have you ever bought a new car? New cars depreciate at different rates but the average is 10% value the first minute it's driven off the lot. After 5 years, you're looking at a 60% value loss.

In terms of both narrative and realism, it's not particularly realistic to expect anyone to get more than 20-25% manufacturer's price (what's listed in the book) for selling a ship on the black market. Even that's being generous. The only people who profit on the black market are black marketeers.

Other items are a different story. You can get a more reasonable price for weapons but you have to sell them in bulk. No crime lord is going to want to buy one blaster. Once you get enough spares together to fill a crate, you can make a reasonable profit.

my group aquired a second ship. They have no desire to keep 2 ships and now plan on selling the ship.

I am looking at ways to not give them as much for a ship.

As it is i am figuring base price halved with a higher percentage based on sucesses.

I am looking for ways to nickle and dime them out of credits with out outright screwing them over.

Taxes hit them for around 20%

10% finders fee for broker

any other ideas?

Just give them as much as you want and say that's the best offer they get.

This is why I never bother selling things in systems that impose unrealistic limits to amounts of money available. If you're going to be this draconian about selling equipment (ships, specifically), don't be surprised if players don't sell -anything- and then complain about how little money they have. If I can only get 5% of the value of an item, what's the point of selling it? Even if I only use it once a year, it still provides more value than the 5% of purchase cost...

I take it you've never sold any big ticket item in the real world either then? This is simply a reflection of the Way Things Work.

If you, as a player, took that approach in a game of mine, I'd let you.

Let you accumulate a bunch of junk that you either had to carry around with you, with all the encumbrance that entailed...or pay to store it somewhere. Pay to protect it from thieves and vandals (and maybe some of it getting stolen even then). If any of it is illegal or restricted, pay to bribe inspectors to look the other way. If it's a ship, let you pay for documentation, inspections, registrations, berthing, security, and upkeep...and all the taxes that go with that.

It's not being draconian to not let players sell a ship for MSRP, or even close to it. To complain about this fact and call it unrealistic really just comes across as whining because you don't have unlimited cash flow.

This is why I never bother selling things in systems that impose unrealistic limits to amounts of money available. If you're going to be this draconian about selling equipment (ships, specifically), don't be surprised if players don't sell -anything- and then complain about how little money they have. If I can only get 5% of the value of an item, what's the point of selling it? Even if I only use it once a year, it still provides more value than the 5% of purchase cost...

I take it you've never sold any big ticket item in the real world either then? This is simply a reflection of the Way Things Work.

If you, as a player, took that approach in a game of mine, I'd let you.

Let you accumulate a bunch of junk that you either had to carry around with you, with all the encumbrance that entailed...or pay to store it somewhere. Pay to protect it from thieves and vandals (and maybe some of it getting stolen even then). If any of it is illegal or restricted, pay to bribe inspectors to look the other way. If it's a ship, let you pay for documentation, inspections, registrations, berthing, security, and upkeep...and all the taxes that go with that.

It's not being draconian to not let players sell a ship for MSRP, or even close to it. To complain about this fact and call it unrealistic really just comes across as whining because you don't have unlimited cash flow.

There's a galaxy of difference between selling something for MSRP and 5% of MSRP. Used cars can be sold for between 30 and 80% of the value new, depending upon the year, model and condition. As for used Real Estate, that actually appreciates in many cases. I've purchased, and sold, at least a dozen properties, so, yes, I have experience with large, real-world transactions.

So, when I say it's unreasonable to make players sell a ship worth 150,000 credits for anything less than 30k or 40k credits (at a minimum), I have the experience to back it up.

So, when I say it's unreasonable to make players sell a ship worth 150,000 credits for anything less than 30k or 40k credits (at a minimum), I have the experience to back it up.

Oh so you've sold starships? Good to know. Have any to sell at the moment? I've been looking into a small freighter just to hop around the system as a daily flyer.

The point here, is that ships depreciate, and quickly. When selling a ship in less than pristine condition, with modifications and out-of-spec changes, a checkered history, and no guarantees...not to mention that they're selling through unofficial channels No Questions Asked, I don't think 30% is unreasonable at all.

Since you're a pro at it, what would you expect a person-to-person (non-dealership) sale to end up at right now, for say, a 1998 Chevy S10 truck with 275,000 miles on it, body not rusting out, but very beat up, with many parts just primered over. Maybe $1,500? That's probably about 10-15% of its MSRP. Less if you're comparing it to new similar models, or adjusting for inflation. That's assuming it's a typical vehicle sale. Now let's say it's being sold in a vacant parking lot by some rando that just wants to get rid of it, no questions asked. There's no plates or inspection stickers, and when you ask about why they're selling it, they just say they want rid of it and it runs. I'd say it brings in an absolute MAX, in those conditions, of maybe $500-750. For a vehicle that sold new for $10,000-$15,000, and its modern equivalents are going for $22,000-28,000.

Bluntly, nothing you've said indicates you have the faintest idea of the realities of depreciation, and you still just seem like a player whining about not getting mad money for every piece of junk you pick up along the way.

I'm AFB at the moment.. doesn't Fly Casual have extended guidance on this? Factors include rarity, planet location and then number of sucess/triumphs/advantages/failures/threats/despairs determine % value versus brand new cost.

The highest you can get is 50% I reckon.... once again I make reference to page 151 of the CRB

Pick a baseline for the selling price...then negotiate. Don't roll any dice, just make it a pure RP session. Have the players taken care of the ship? Has it been in combat, and repair parts are held in place with duct tape and happy thoughts? Put a few mods on it, but the player making the Mechanics check barely made the roll...or worse, botched it? Did the group pull any heists or capers that would land them on an Imperial BOLO? Is it an older ship, something that is pretty rare or unique? ("It's a 'Firefly'-class ship." "They still make those?") Low ball the offer, something ridiculously low, but not insultingly so, then RP the entire thing.

"Well...heres the issues, and I ain't gonna lie to you. Its seen some action...the armor on your port side is more wishful thinking, than armor. And your compression coil is just this side of dead. I'm liking the ECM unit, but I have to have it completely rewired. Looks like the guy you had install it did the job quick and dirty...heavy on the quick and dirty. I also quietly ran the IFF past BoSS...this thing is hot. So I either have to swap the IFF for a clean one, or have someone slice into BoSS and change the status. The first one will cost lots of credits, the second will cost lots of credits, and run the risk of everyone ending up in an Imperial penal colony, somewheres. Or, I let the thing sit on the back lot and part it out, and that means its going to be a while before I see any kind of profit off of this thing. Hmmm....I can see myself giving you....9,000 credits, right here and now." Then let the players haggle it out. In the end, you want the buyer to be reluctant, but give the selling price. Do it right, and the players will think they pulled a fast one on the buyer. "Well...its going to hit me for a loss...but I can do twenty thousand. But not a credit more."

We 'acquired' a Firespray.. expected/wanted 35k for it. After dialogue rp'ing and dice rolls we got 23K. The GM went through the rarity, space region modifier and dice results...we were happy with that once we worked out the value of all the other stuff we found to sell on or keep.

You'll rarely get what you want as a player for a ship.. but the whole system is not, IMO, based on shoot and loot. Page 151 states that the PCs must be given a reason to keep going... did Han ever make use of that 17K after dropping off his passengers at Yavin 4???

You'll rarely get what you want as a player for a ship.. but the whole system is not, IMO, based and shoot and loot. Page 151 states that the PCs must be given a reason to keep going... did Han ever make use of that 17K after dropping off his passemgers at Yavin 4???

To be fair, he only ever saw 2 of that ("We'll pay you two thousand now...plus another fifteen when we reach Alderaan..."). They never really managed to "reach Alderaan", so he never got the fifteen.

That being said, he did get his reward from the Alliance...and somehow saw fit to delay paying back Jabba.

Oh so you've sold starships? Good to know. Have any to sell at the moment? I've been looking into a small freighter just to hop around the system as a daily flyer.

The point here, is that ships depreciate, and quickly. When selling a ship in less than pristine condition, with modifications and out-of-spec changes, a checkered history, and no guarantees...not to mention that they're selling through unofficial channels No Questions Asked, I don't think 30% is unreasonable at all.

Since you're a pro at it, what would you expect a person-to-person (non-dealership) sale to end up at right now, for say, a 1998 Chevy S10 truck with 275,000 miles on it, body not rusting out, but very beat up, with many parts just primered over. Maybe $1,500? That's probably about 10-15% of its MSRP. Less if you're comparing it to new similar models, or adjusting for inflation. That's assuming it's a typical vehicle sale. Now let's say it's being sold in a vacant parking lot by some rando that just wants to get rid of it, no questions asked. There's no plates or inspection stickers, and when you ask about why they're selling it, they just say they want rid of it and it runs. I'd say it brings in an absolute MAX, in those conditions, of maybe $500-750. For a vehicle that sold new for $10,000-$15,000, and its modern equivalents are going for $22,000-28,000.

Bluntly, nothing you've said indicates you have the faintest idea of the realities of depreciation, and you still just seem like a player whining about not getting mad money for every piece of junk you pick up along the way.

If ships truly depreciated as quickly as you say, why can't players buy them for less than book? Why are ships that haven't been built in decades or centuries still selling at or near their MSRP? I think we're operating from two very different sets of initial conditions. I'm of the impression that the "book" price isn't MSRP, but "current market" price for an average model of X. You seem to be of the impression that "book" price is the starship manufacturer's licensed dealer price.

If players are operating in that world (book = MSRP), then it should be relatively easy to buy a new ship for less than 30k. If you're not allowing your party to be on the buying side of the equation as well as the selling side, then that strikes me as very unfair.

As to the rest of the pejoratives you've vomited in my direction, I'm not going to engage. This is a discussion about the relative market price to be expected by buyers and sellers in an RPG based on a series of SciFi films made in the eighties. Real-life analogues can only go so far.

If players are operating in that world (book = MSRP), then it should be relatively easy to buy a new ship for less than 30k. If you're not allowing your party to be on the buying side of the equation as well as the selling side, then that strikes me as very unfair.

Who said they can't? Didn't Luke scoff at 10,000 for a ride to Alderaan by saying (even if hyperbolic), "We could almost buy our own ship for that much!"?

I'd certainly let my players get into a ship for 30,000-40,000. It'd also come with the risks associated with such a purchase (past owners, unreliability, messed up records, skip tracers, shoddy repairs, operations quirks, weird odors...), not seeing what's terribly difficult to understand on that one.

I still cannot reasonably believe that, with the experience you claim to have in buying and selling, that you feel you have a reasonable gripe with a GM only allowing players to pull 5-30% of the book-listed price (whatever it may represent to you) for a "found" ship of questionable provenance. Especially in the world of No Questions Asked transactions, where the Black Market always lowballs and always gouges, essentially taking its own "convenience tax" both buying and selling. I'm not sure about the FFG books specifically offhand, but I know that both the WotC and WEG systems specifically stated that for any sort of goods with a listed price, that GMs should feel free to double the price at minimum, if not triple, 5x, or more...for anything purchased from the black market...and that likewise, players should expect a severe hit to their "take" for anything sold on the black market.

If the players want to go legitimate to sell this ship, they're not likely to get a great deal more. If the ship is pristine, with clean BoSS records, an up to date log, a spotless service and maintenance record, OEM parts, and deckplates you could eat off of...I'd expect them to be able to sell it for about 50-60% of the price listed in the book. Tops. This is because beyond purchase, the buyer would need to consider the costs to update all of the records, their own profit margin, and if they were going to spend more than that on that specific ship in that condition anyway, why wouldn't they go through a reputable seller and get some sort of warranty or pre-purchase inspection from a qualified mechanic or representative of the company? They're going to buy from a group of shady characters because they can get it cheaper that way.

And I'm sorry if you take what I'm saying personally, but anything I've seen you post just instantly reminds me of a few players I've had over the years that seemed to feel that their character could make a living picking blaster pistols off of dead goons and selling them for book price, and started the entitled whining when it didn't work out the way they felt it should. I really do hope that you're not like that to your own GM, but that's the instant mental connection I've made both from this discussion (where you entered with a rant about how things are unfair and the players are being cheated) as well as the Characteristics of 1 thread where you again entered with a rant, that time about how other players weren't min-maxing to your satisfaction. While it's certainly possible that I've misjudged based on nuances lost in translation over text-based communication, and I do hope that's the case...from what I've read, the arguments made are identical to the complaints of an entitled player. I'm sorry if that ruffled your feathers, but that's just how you've come across to me.

I'm still baffled by the OP's desire to "nickle & dime" them but not screw them over. These really seem to be in conflict. The game has rules for selling items, so just use the rules.

Go for 1/4 or 1/3 of the cost in the book and make a Negotiate check, if that is not enough, then adjust it upwards, if it's a bit too much, then adjust it downwards... you could consider how many space battles they've been in, how much and far they've travelled with it, how they've lived on it, what has happened in it... then modify the result accordingly and in line with the result of the check. While advantages usually add 5% (or something) decrease that if the ship was really banged up, received poor and hasty repairs, critical hits could leave lasting aesthetic scars and strangely behaving systems that the players have become used to even if repaired, you could easily reduce that if the ship is really banged up. Also, if they've had regular maintenance, proper shipyard level repairs, that could increase the 5%. Correspondingly, you can do the same with threats... if my players tried to sell their ship now, they wouldn't receive much money for it (if any) - unless they rolled a triumph or two due to the buyer being a completionist collector of just your type of ship - for whatever reason true or false, s/he believes ther ship is a rare find ... the they'd get something, perhaps even a good deal... but with with only 4 left to meet exceed the HTT,... hehehehe...

As long as depreciation works both ways, I don't see an issue with low selling prices (as a player). Its when games decide that it only works against you and never for you that it becomes an issue. Then the system is inherently designed to keep you broke. This doesn't sound like the case here.

I believe that the official base price for selling goods is 1/4 the listed price for buying them. And with good enough negotiation rolls and the right talents, you can get that up to nearly 100% of the listed price. But the buyer always has to be able to make some sort of profit, so I don’t think you’ll ever get to 100% of the listed price.

And I believe there are at least a few items in the book that have both “New-off-the-shelf” purchase prices listed as well as “gently-used” prices, plus rules for handling the purchase of items that are worse-for-wear than “gently-used”.

Specifically with regards to ships, there are a number of particular ships listed in the books that have a price lower than that of the base model, which I take to mean that the base model price listed is MSRP, while the price of that particular ship takes into account the history, how gently or not-gently it’s been used, etc….

Take a look at the page at < http://swrpg.viluppo.net/transportation/starships/?order_by=equipment__price >. Compare the price of “The Diligent” which is a specific PB-950 (at 125,000 credits), versus the base PB-950 (150,000 credits). Of course, that would be like the Kelly Blue Book “Buy it from a Used Starship Dealer” price, but there’s still a difference there. And there are some other examples also on that page.

Start at whatever price you want for them to have then make them Negotiate for more. On good rolls with advantage you can offer them things other than credits that's got a higher value. On a failure with advantage or triumph offer them stuff that's worth less.

The stuff could be vehicle attachments including weapons systems, droids like an Astromec or Protocol. It could be a small vehicle that fits in the hold of the ship they are keeping. It could even be a tip off with assurances and a much bigger prize.

They could also be approached by a Quartermaster and asked to donate it to "a good cause" aka the Rebellion.

Another thing to keep in mind, and it seems some people aren't, is players aren't always selling to a dealer or another merchant. Sometimes they're selling directly to a consumer, in which case there is no "profit margin" the buyer is considering. So 100% value is perfectly reasonable (assuming it's in 100% condition and isn't something that depreciates rapidly like a vehicle, think a like new Blaster or such) in that case. Not as a starting point of course, they don't have a dealer's reputation behind them (I mean, unless they do) but after the negotiations even higher than 100% is feasible in that situation if you've not only convinced the buyer it's worth shelf value, but you've also convinced them they need it now and whatever they might save by heading to the market will be offset in time and fuel costs, or ordering it online and delivery costs. Basically how brick and mortar computer stores work. "Sure, you can get this part for 25% less than I'm asking, but it'll take you a week for the part to get to you and you'll be paying shipping and handling on it too. Do you want your computer to not work for a week?"

Theoretically when selling a ship even a player could manage that same situation with some luck and enough time spent in the underworld. I mean, sit around in enough seedy bars listening to conversations and you're bound to hear of some dude who ticked off the wrong gang and needs to get off world fast. You just happen to have a ship for sale that will get them off world just fine. Maybe you've even got the only ship for sale (to him) in the hemisphere. (Or can convince him of such at least).

The same tricks that work against the PC's in many cases can work for them assuming they have the time and means to implement them.
For general goods, I've recently discovered in another game that simply renting a merchants' stall in a market to sell your goods can do wonders for your base priceline. For the day, or week, or whatever you rented the stall for, you are now a legit merchant with customers actively looking to buy goods. You're no longer trying to pawn off your gear on merchants looking to turn a profit on it.

a couple of things

First as the GM I want a fair and equitable game. They aquired the ship largely in tact. I am leaning more towards a base 50% plus upgrades and other variables they come up with IN the end I wiil be going with a dice roll negotiation when they find a buyer.
As any group I set up a couple options sell eitehr ship theirs the captured one or trade them both in for an upgrade.
the game is tommorrow so i will see what happens

A point was made as to no wanting to straight screw them over but nickle and dime them It is a matter of fairness.

Another thing to keep in mind, and it seems some people aren't, is players aren't always selling to a dealer or another merchant. Sometimes they're selling directly to a consumer, in which case there is no "profit margin" the buyer is considering. So 100% value is perfectly reasonable (assuming it's in 100% condition and isn't something that depreciates rapidly like a vehicle, think a like new Blaster or such) in that case. Not as a starting point of course, they don't have a dealer's reputation behind them (I mean, unless they do) but after the negotiations even higher than 100% is feasible in that situation if you've not only convinced the buyer it's worth shelf value, but you've also convinced them they need it now and whatever they might save by heading to the market will be offset in time and fuel costs, or ordering it online and delivery costs.

I get where you're coming from on this, but you should also understand that a few more stars need to align than just those you mentioned. If an average person has $25,000 cash and they need a car by sundown, they're not going to pull up to a random house with a car in the yard with a "for sale" poster on it and offer them MSRP just because they have it and they're in a hurry. They're going to go to the dealership, wave a fat stack of banbknotes in front of a commission-driven salesman and tell them, "I'm going to buy a new car today, and it can either be from you or it can be from the guy down the road. Show me what you've got." That salesman will do somesaults for the guy if it'll help him close the deal.

It's worthwhile to be realistic about the situation and understand that the buyer that has that much cash on hand will also be able to realize the situation and play to their own strengths, which is at that point the legitimacy of hard currency. They're not a buyer that needs to go through the banks or anything like that, nobody else will be taking their cut except the seller, so that buyer is best served by going through legitimate means.

Realistically, I would consider giving the players the "book price" only in a situation with a rather desperate buyer, where the players pretty much hold every card in the transaction. They have a ship, they have it now, they're willing to sell. The buyer, in contrast, must have a ship immediately, cannot go through legitimate means for whatever reason, yet is not willing to steal, book passage, or stow away, also has a glut of available funds, and for some reason the players' ship is the only one available (after all, other sellers are what create the market where a used ship sells for 50% or less of book price).

The interesting third option is when both parties have something the other wants, beyond hard currency. Perhaps this buyer is an arms dealer running from a deal gone sour. As part of his payment, he'll include the location of a recent shipment of concussion missiles he'd been planning to sell...or perhaps a highly sought-after longshot quadlaser from a lancer frigate. Or maybe they're a slicer who's been found out and needs to get out of Dodge...and while they only have a bit of cash, they *do* have all of the access codes, plus detailed technical readouts of the governor's mansion...they just never had the other skills needed to break in and steal his art collection; the team of PCs does have those skills but lacked the codes.

I always prefer to keep liquid assets rather at a minimum in my games to help curb the "accountant mentality" that crops up in some players when you start itemizing every purchase and sale. If players of mine managed to "acquire" a ship, chances are, it was through less-than-legitimate means, and as such, they can't sell it through above-board channels, and the upshot is that they're going to feel the burn from that fact in their resale value. Since their investment in a such-acquired ship is essentially zero anyway, though, all of that sale price is putting them in the black.

Selling ships really should depend on who you are selling them to and what the value is.

Selling captured imperial ships (with recent codes) to the rebellion should get you top dollar

Selling anything to the hutt's will probably get you bottom dollar unless they need it for some reason.

Holding on to stuff and finding the right buyer for something really valuable can be a RP session in itself.

Boning your PC's by giving them 5-30% they just won't sell it unless they are desperate and even then they may hunt down the buyer later for ripping them off.