I sure do love me some 40k hate threads. But seriously, whats not to hate? I mean you guys covered it all.

perhaps ironically, the best thing to happen to 40k is all this hate. As 40k and GW slowly bleed to death, games like X-wing, Armada, Warmachine, Kings of War, Flames of War etc....all hasten GWs own end times.

GW needs to die, the IP needs a long nap then perhaps a reboot under a new company down the road. Imagine if FFG could secure the whole IP and make 40k skirmish game like Imperial Assault? (cause I hate needing/building terrain)

It's funny, being a latecomer to 40k, I don't hate it. It seems like a good game to me and I wish I had more time to play more of it.

But Fantasy....being part of fantasy for 10+ years...yeah, I hate what it has become / became (even before AoS)

To many fanboys trying to argue xwing is cheap and it is in no way a cheap game.

The comparison to 40k is just more obsfucated fanboy nonsense because no one in this thread said 40k is cheaper. We are talking to different games with different rules and upgrade costs and different costs in army building design both of which are cost prohibitive even when you factor in things like downloading rules for free or buying upgrades off eBay or buying second hand models etc. it's a fanboy nonsense article. I've spent nearly $800 dollars this year on xwing and everyone still expects at least one more huge ship and another wave to release by the end of the year. I've probably spent the same on 40k while building the terrain and the 3 armies in the IA8 raid on kaelstorum book from FW. It's a slower process since I buy as I build and paint and not just stack boxes in a corner waiting to be completed.

I am hardly arguing X-Wing cheap. For my paltry forces, I've spent 200 dollars, and while I've gotten many great games out of my purchases and will get many more, that's still quite a lot. There are many cheaper hobby games and quite a few popular ones in the same ballpark (I'd argue Magic the Gathering is about in the same range; it's probably more expensive overall, but it's just as cheap to break into).

But X-Wing is certainly cheap compared to 40k. I'm not sure how on Earth you've built three armies and purchased an Imperial Armor book and terrain and painting and modeling supplies for your miniatures on a 800 dollar budget. Warhammer 40k is a horrendously expensive game. Rules and miniatures cost far too much considering the value you get out of them.

And despite being cheaper, X-Wing is a better game. The rules are much easier to learn and make for faster, more dynamic games. The ships are kept balanced with only a few outliers, and even those tend to get fixed (TIE Advanced).

Apparently.

500 points isn't even a proper game. That's just a skirmish.

It is not really the point count that makes a miniature hobby expensive but the model count. A standard game of X-wing has around 2-8 models per side. A standard game of warhammer 40,000 could have 20-100+ models per side. That right there makes warhammer more expensive. Same could be said for Armada, most people forget to count squadrons as models, it can go from 3 models to over a dozen per side.

To many fanboys trying to argue xwing is cheap and it is in no way a cheap game.

The comparison to 40k is just more obsfucated fanboy nonsense because no one in this thread said 40k is cheaper. We are talking to different games with different rules and upgrade costs and different costs in army building design both of which are cost prohibitive even when you factor in things like downloading rules for free or buying upgrades off eBay or buying second hand models etc. it's a fanboy nonsense article. I've spent nearly $800 dollars this year on xwing and everyone still expects at least one more huge ship and another wave to release by the end of the year. I've probably spent the same on 40k while building the terrain and the 3 armies in the IA8 raid on kaelstorum book from FW. It's a slower process since I buy as I build and paint and not just stack boxes in a corner waiting to be completed.

I've bought two waves all three factions and only spent £150 that's my total spending on x-wing this year.

$800 seems excessive I've been playing two years now I haven't even hit the £500 Mark and own every ship in multiples of two or three.

I'd have to spend £500 to start playing 40k at the 2k level which is a standard game size, then I'd have to invest hours into building them then painting them, then in a year or two they'll release a new codex making my current army obsolete and require me to spend more cash.

To many fanboys trying to argue xwing is cheap and it is in no way a cheap game.

The comparison to 40k is just more obsfucated fanboy nonsense because no one in this thread said 40k is cheaper. We are talking to different games with different rules and upgrade costs and different costs in army building design both of which are cost prohibitive even when you factor in things like downloading rules for free or buying upgrades off eBay or buying second hand models etc. it's a fanboy nonsense article. I've spent nearly $800 dollars this year on xwing and everyone still expects at least one more huge ship and another wave to release by the end of the year. I've probably spent the same on 40k while building the terrain and the 3 armies in the IA8 raid on kaelstorum book from FW. It's a slower process since I buy as I build and paint and not just stack boxes in a corner waiting to be completed.

I've bought two waves all three factions and only spent £150 that's my total spending on x-wing this year.

$800 seems excessive I've been playing two years now I haven't even hit the £500 Mark and own every ship in multiples of two or three.

I'd have to spend £500 to start playing 40k at the 2k level which is a standard game size, then I'd have to invest hours into building them then painting them, then in a year or two they'll release a new codex making my current army obsolete and require me to spend more cash.

$150 is really skimping on models considering we had at least 1 huge ship release, playmats, 2 waves, a new starter set and still have at least another huge ship and another wave and a half of you count the episode 7 ships. In fact it's basically impossible to buy one of every ship this year and pay $150. So unless you got great deals on second hand models I don't buy your $150 comment.

He didn't say $150. He said 150 pounds. Which is closer to $230. But you are talking over each other, really. Your comment was, essentially "I've spent the same amount on X Wing as I have building 3 40k armies this year." I assume the conclusion you are attempting to convince us of is that "Because you spent the same amount on both hobbies (roughly $800 this year), that they cost the same. This is not true, it's simply a fallacious comparison.

Take 3 scenarios of game buy-in and apply them equally to both X Wing and 40K, and evaluate the cost results (ie, what it would cost you to get in to these games today, using MSRP for both games in all 3 scenarios.

Scenario 1: What you have to pay to get a starter standard game (100 pts X Wing / 1,850 40k) (minimum reasonable buy-in for 1 faction/army)

Scenario 2. What you would have to pay to have robust model/gaming selection for 3 factions of 100 pt X Wing vs. 1,850 40k)

Scenario 3: What you would have to pay to have nearly unlimited, sky's-the-limit model selection for 3 "epic" factions of 300 pt. X wing vs. 3,000 pts. 40k) (ie going nuts)

Then, toss in the costs of peripherals to support X wing vs. 40k if you really feel like salt on the wound.

There are many cheaper hobby games and quite a few popular ones in the same ballpark (I'd argue Magic the Gathering is about in the same range; it's probably more expensive overall, but it's just as cheap to break into).

I'd argue about MTG being in the same range. Sure you can get some premade decks and have some casual fun, but as soon as you want to tourneys and be competitive you're looking at a pricetag of at least 200+ for a tier 2 Standard deck and easily hit 1k if you go tier 1 on Modern. Not to mention Legacy or Vintage. And that's just for one competitive deck.

I'm selling my mtg tourney decks and x-wing is really cheap compared to that, but on a casual lvel MtG does offer more options for your money than x-wing, because sub-optimal cards are cheap (they don't win you tourneys tho) and are sufficient as long as noone in your group starts playing tourney decks

You can get everything you need to field a tournament ready X-Wing list for under £50.

£50 won't even get you all the rules for a game of £40K, let alone a tournament ready army.

There are many cheaper hobby games and quite a few popular ones in the same ballpark (I'd argue Magic the Gathering is about in the same range; it's probably more expensive overall, but it's just as cheap to break into).

I'd argue about MTG being in the same range. Sure you can get some premade decks and have some casual fun, but as soon as you want to tourneys and be competitive you're looking at a pricetag of at least 200+ for a tier 2 Standard deck and easily hit 1k if you go tier 1 on Modern. Not to mention Legacy or Vintage. And that's just for one competitive deck.

I'm selling my mtg tourney decks and x-wing is really cheap compared to that, but on a casual lvel MtG does offer more options for your money than x-wing, because sub-optimal cards are cheap (they don't win you tourneys tho) and are sufficient as long as noone in your group starts playing tourney decks

RDW is generally a cheap deck that can still give quite some bang for your buck.

But yeah, at the tournament level Magic is definitely more expensive. I was thinking more of a casual level.

Oh, I know exactly what it means, and no amount of Princess Bride references are going to let you palm wave my point, stick your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist: your argument is absurd; deal with it.

See, there you go again. You might think a reductio ad absurdum means that an argument is absurd.

Not so.

Reductio ad absurdum means that you deliberately push an argument or idea to it's extreme in order to prove that the idea doesn't have legs.

I haven't done that, although you seem to think I have.

I mean, I get that you disagree, but at least try to make sense while you're doing it please.

Your point doesn't stand at all. A codex is rules. You apply the X-Wing rule set to an infinite number of ships across all factions, your codex is only good for 1 faction. Shield upgrade is a modification card. You need one for every ship you use it on just like you need giant shoulder pads and a gun/sword for every space orc angel or whatever they are in 40k.

Oh, I see where you're going wrong.

No, an upgrade card is rules. A model is a model. If I want a B Wing, I need to buy a B Wing. If I want a Space Marine with a Lascannon, I need to buy a Space Marine with a Lascannon.

But rules don't work that way. If I know how to apply the in game effects of an upgrade, and can show those rules to my opponent, then that is all that is required. Except in X Wing, where I need ANOTHER copy of the those rules if I want to apply them to a second ship because... well... there's no good reason at all except it makes FFG more money.

To many fanboys trying to argue xwing is cheap and it is in no way a cheap game.

The comparison to 40k is just more obsfucated fanboy nonsense because no one in this thread said 40k is cheaper. We are talking to different games with different rules and upgrade costs and different costs in army building design both of which are cost prohibitive even when you factor in things like downloading rules for free or buying upgrades off eBay or buying second hand models etc. it's a fanboy nonsense article. I've spent nearly $800 dollars this year on xwing and everyone still expects at least one more huge ship and another wave to release by the end of the year. I've probably spent the same on 40k while building the terrain and the 3 armies in the IA8 raid on kaelstorum book from FW. It's a slower process since I buy as I build and paint and not just stack boxes in a corner waiting to be completed.

I've bought two waves all three factions and only spent £150 that's my total spending on x-wing this year.

$800 seems excessive I've been playing two years now I haven't even hit the £500 Mark and own every ship in multiples of two or three.

I'd have to spend £500 to start playing 40k at the 2k level which is a standard game size, then I'd have to invest hours into building them then painting them, then in a year or two they'll release a new codex making my current army obsolete and require me to spend more cash.

$150 is really skimping on models considering we had at least 1 huge ship release, playmats, 2 waves, a new starter set and still have at least another huge ship and another wave and a half of you count the episode 7 ships. In fact it's basically impossible to buy one of every ship this year and pay $150. So unless you got great deals on second hand models I don't buy your $150 comment.

Well I already have a mat so didn't buy the ffg ones.

I got the raider in trade for some old skaven metal miniatures I wasn't using but my friend was finishing his army so I gave them to him free not expecting anything back, next time I saw him he said I'd saved him £130ish so as a thank you ordered me the raider.

Wave six was:

Most wanted £25

2 starvipers at £24

2 scyk at £20

I didn't but iggs at launch so got them much cheaper later on.

Wave seven was:

1 k wing £13

1 punisher £13

2 khvfrxdgg fighters £20

1 yv666 £25

Total was less that retail due to a mix up and store credit.

So yes over £150 now I total it up but certainly under £200 for the year, I've no plan to buy the new core and won't bother with the goz till it goes down to £30.

Happier with my maths now sir?

I sure do love me some 40k hate threads. But seriously, whats not to hate? I mean you guys covered it all.

perhaps ironically, the best thing to happen to 40k is all this hate. As 40k and GW slowly bleed to death, games like X-wing, Armada, Warmachine, Kings of War, Flames of War etc....all hasten GWs own end times.

GW needs to die, the IP needs a long nap then perhaps a reboot under a new company down the road. Imagine if FFG could secure the whole IP and make 40k skirmish game like Imperial Assault? (cause I hate needing/building terrain)

40k is whats not to hate. The game is an institution, it looks back on a long tradition. The problem is GW and only GW.

40k tabletop as a game is a horrible, broken mess. GW's fault? yep. Dawn of War, Space Hulk, Death Angel, Dark Heresy/Deathwatch etc, etc....all awesome. Perhaps as a modelling hobby, 40k is still great if thats your thing. But as a tabletop miniatures game, its in a bad state. We can raise a glass to whatever it was in the past, but GW needs to die so that someone else can give 40k a tabletop game worthy of its universe.

I don't think 40k was ever all that interesting in game terms, it just had its heyday in an era when there weren't very many games out. With the rise of designer board games people expect a lot more out of games and GW is staffed by dinosaurs.

Your point doesn't stand at all. A codex is rules. You apply the X-Wing rule set to an infinite number of ships across all factions, your codex is only good for 1 faction. Shield upgrade is a modification card. You need one for every ship you use it on just like you need giant shoulder pads and a gun/sword for every space orc angel or whatever they are in 40k.

Oh, I see where you're going wrong.

No, an upgrade card is rules. A model is a model. If I want a B Wing, I need to buy a B Wing. If I want a Space Marine with a Lascannon, I need to buy a Space Marine with a Lascannon.

But rules don't work that way. If I know how to apply the in game effects of an upgrade, and can show those rules to my opponent, then that is all that is required. Except in X Wing, where I need ANOTHER copy of the those rules if I want to apply them to a second ship because... well... there's no good reason at all except it makes FFG more money.

Rules are the basic guidelines for how you play the game. Without them, you can't play the game period. The required rules for X-Wing would be the damage deck, movement templates, range ruler, and the rulebook (Which is a free online PDF). You can get all the rules for X-Wing with either core set for MSRP of $40. This also comes with three ships.

A specific upgrade card is not rules any more than a specific Magic the Gathering card is rules. Not having Shield Upgrade is no different from not having a HWK-290. You can still play the game, just with different pieces.

The rules for Warhammer 40k are the core rulebook ($70) and whatever army codex you're using ($50).

EDIT: I edited down the costs to the online PDF versions of the rulebooks for a more fair comparison... Though 40,000 still comes out looking ridiculously pricey.

Your point doesn't stand at all. A codex is rules. You apply the X-Wing rule set to an infinite number of ships across all factions, your codex is only good for 1 faction. Shield upgrade is a modification card. You need one for every ship you use it on just like you need giant shoulder pads and a gun/sword for every space orc angel or whatever they are in 40k.

Oh, I see where you're going wrong.No, an upgrade card is rules. A model is a model. If I want a B Wing, I need to buy a B Wing. If I want a Space Marine with a Lascannon, I need to buy a Space Marine with a Lascannon.But rules don't work that way. If I know how to apply the in game effects of an upgrade, and can show those rules to my opponent, then that is all that is required. Except in X Wing, where I need ANOTHER copy of the those rules if I want to apply them to a second ship because... well... there's no good reason at all except it makes FFG more money.

I think that explains it a little better for me, but if I want a space marine with a lascannon or one with a railgun, or one with a jello sword I need 3 different models just to apply weapon rules where I can use my same b-wing model and equip 5 different cannons to it as long as I at some point bought a ship with those 5 upgrades. That's 5 different models to run those 5 weapons in GW terms?

Your point doesn't stand at all. A codex is rules. You apply the X-Wing rule set to an infinite number of ships across all factions, your codex is only good for 1 faction. Shield upgrade is a modification card. You need one for every ship you use it on just like you need giant shoulder pads and a gun/sword for every space orc angel or whatever they are in 40k.

Oh, I see where you're going wrong.No, an upgrade card is rules. A model is a model. If I want a B Wing, I need to buy a B Wing. If I want a Space Marine with a Lascannon, I need to buy a Space Marine with a Lascannon.But rules don't work that way. If I know how to apply the in game effects of an upgrade, and can show those rules to my opponent, then that is all that is required. Except in X Wing, where I need ANOTHER copy of the those rules if I want to apply them to a second ship because... well... there's no good reason at all except it makes FFG more money.

I think that explains it a little better for me, but if I want a space marine with a lascannon or one with a railgun, or one with a jello sword I need 3 different models just to apply weapon rules where I can use my same b-wing model and equip 5 different cannons to it as long as I at some point bought a ship with those 5 upgrades. That's 5 different models to run those 5 weapons in GW terms?

great point.

I sure do love me some 40k hate threads. But seriously, whats not to hate? I mean you guys covered it all.

perhaps ironically, the best thing to happen to 40k is all this hate. As 40k and GW slowly bleed to death, games like X-wing, Armada, Warmachine, Kings of War, Flames of War etc....all hasten GWs own end times.

GW needs to die, the IP needs a long nap then perhaps a reboot under a new company down the road. Imagine if FFG could secure the whole IP and make 40k skirmish game like Imperial Assault? (cause I hate needing/building terrain)

40k is whats not to hate. The game is an institution, it looks back on a long tradition. The problem is GW and only GW.

40k tabletop as a game is a horrible, broken mess. GW's fault? yep. Dawn of War, Space Hulk, Death Angel, Dark Heresy/Deathwatch etc, etc....all awesome. Perhaps as a modelling hobby, 40k is still great if thats your thing. But as a tabletop miniatures game, its in a bad state. We can raise a glass to whatever it was in the past, but GW needs to die so that someone else can give 40k a tabletop game worthy of its universe.

Problem is, all the other war-games of its type out there are worse.

At least we still have X-Wing

I played 40k in 2nd edition when I didn't really understand too much at the time. Now, however, I miss those RPG aspects. I've not played since 3rd edition as I find 40k as a game quite unengaging. I've got a big collection though because the modelling is fun, but I don't expect I will buy any more as their latest models look a bit too CAD for me.

XWing has the IP and allows me to craft little stories around my ships. The quick playtime is brilliant too, and the fact that my board gaming friends can easily choose a few ships from my collection and have a quick game.

I sure do love me some 40k hate threads. But seriously, whats not to hate? I mean you guys covered it all.

perhaps ironically, the best thing to happen to 40k is all this hate. As 40k and GW slowly bleed to death, games like X-wing, Armada, Warmachine, Kings of War, Flames of War etc....all hasten GWs own end times.

GW needs to die, the IP needs a long nap then perhaps a reboot under a new company down the road. Imagine if FFG could secure the whole IP and make 40k skirmish game like Imperial Assault? (cause I hate needing/building terrain)

40k is whats not to hate. The game is an institution, it looks back on a long tradition. The problem is GW and only GW.

40k tabletop as a game is a horrible, broken mess. GW's fault? yep. Dawn of War, Space Hulk, Death Angel, Dark Heresy/Deathwatch etc, etc....all awesome. Perhaps as a modelling hobby, 40k is still great if thats your thing. But as a tabletop miniatures game, its in a bad state. We can raise a glass to whatever it was in the past, but GW needs to die so that someone else can give 40k a tabletop game worthy of its universe.

Problem is, all the other war-games of its type out there are worse.

At least we still have X-Wing

Worse than 40k? haha, hardly. Flames of War, Infinity, Dropzone commander....there are many great miniature games out there. They may not appeal to everyone, but at least their rules work.

The cost thing is a bit of a red herring as it's so totally situational.

You can contain overall costs in either system by going with smaller, more elite factions with lower model count. Not sure how many people choose their factions this way, but it's certainly an option for those in a financial bind.

You can save tons of money in each system by going to the secondary market for those last few bits you need (be they weapons, codexes, upgrade cards, data slates, whatever) rather than buying at retail. Presumably many people do this as both X-Wing and 40k have large and well-developed secondary markets.

Casual players can proxy - this Space Marine with missile launcher is actually carrying a lascannon, this Post-It note describes a Stealth Device, etc. You can magnetize miniatures in 40k to use alternate weapons without having to procure multiple copies of a given model.

One place where the two systems most definitely differ is in time investment. There's simply no comparison, getting a 40k army up to speed from boxes requires an enormous amount of effort to build, paint, and base - all this before you can even play the game.

Again, depending on the faction this can vary somewhat, but unless you purchase an army secondhand, there is no "plug and play" option for 40k at all. The Necron example bandied about is probably the lowest barrier to entry - a relatively lower model count and a generally simple paint scheme. The other factions - and not everyone wants to play Necrons after all! - are all significanly more demanding.

So, at the end of the day, failing to account for the time cost of 40k is a false comparison. Hobbying in X-Wing is completely optional, whereas it's mandatory in 40k. I'd rather be playing games, personally.

I have played 40k and built two armies for it and now working on a redo of one of them, though I don't intend to play it unless by some miracle they AoS the rules.

And I attest that the content gained per dollar spent is greater by far for X-wing, and the total dollar amount paid out, initial buy-in, and maintenance cost are all less than 40k for the full game.

The dollar spent too content gained is the greatest factor for me when purchasing games, right above continued maintenance cost.

I was playing games with an initial buy-in of $40, and a week later playing, full game initial content for two players at $140. Notably that price hasn't gone up too dramatically with the introduction of a third faction. For me buy-in on that was $80 for the base add-on complete (two Most Wanted packs.) But $40 would work. And the only real maintenance (as far as I'm concerned) cost I have paid out is again $80 for the up dated core, which came with three ships per the two units I bought which was just effing awesome. And again, could have gotten away with $40 there.

Now to get a Tau army started today, which just gets me one faction of like a dozen, and just enough for one player. It's ~$100 Just to get a Core rule book, codex, tape measure, and a dice brick that has the scatter die, all sold separately. The bare minimum for troops is a Fire warrior box at $40, and a commander which we'll be nice and fake one out of a Crisis suit kit(since commander is now it's own nice kit) for an extra two dudes on the side at what, like $50 for the new one? And that gets me my core choices, but only a third of a usable army at like maybe 400pts if I push it. And already I'm at about $200, for a third, of one player, in one faction. And with in five years in looking at probably $100 in upkeep. And that's just to play at a basic level.

Then we address the competitive list you want to build to get going on that scene. Fair. $75 for the blisters and bam you got the famous and trusty BBBBZ list. PLUS a couple of upgrades that go to help whatever else you may build eventually.

And there's the beauty of the X-wing buying scheme: every time you buy a product, you get some content to use in dank near any product. You are constantly given a bunch of Lego piece game content bits that can click together with your existing and future product. Value per buck spent? Outstanding. When I drop a ignorant sum of money on a Storm surge and get nothing to help my other Tau get upgrades let alone find something that I can slap on my Imperial Night? Cost effectiveness is crap.

To many fanboys trying to argue xwing is cheap and it is in no way a cheap game.

The comparison to 40k is just more obsfucated fanboy nonsense because no one in this thread said 40k is cheaper. We are talking to different games with different rules and upgrade costs and different costs in army building design both of which are cost prohibitive even when you factor in things like downloading rules for free or buying upgrades off eBay or buying second hand models etc. it's a fanboy nonsense article. I've spent nearly $800 dollars this year on xwing and everyone still expects at least one more huge ship and another wave to release by the end of the year. I've probably spent the same on 40k while building the terrain and the 3 armies in the IA8 raid on kaelstorum book from FW. It's a slower process since I buy as I build and paint and not just stack boxes in a corner waiting to be completed.

I am hardly arguing X-Wing cheap. For my paltry forces, I've spent 200 dollars, and while I've gotten many great games out of my purchases and will get many more, that's still quite a lot. There are many cheaper hobby games and quite a few popular ones in the same ballpark (I'd argue Magic the Gathering is about in the same range; it's probably more expensive overall, but it's just as cheap to break into).

But X-Wing is certainly cheap compared to 40k. I'm not sure how on Earth you've built three armies and purchased an Imperial Armor book and terrain and painting and modeling supplies for your miniatures on a 800 dollar budget. Warhammer 40k is a horrendously expensive game. Rules and miniatures cost far too much considering the value you get out of them.

And despite being cheaper, X-Wing is a better game. The rules are much easier to learn and make for faster, more dynamic games. The ships are kept balanced with only a few outliers, and even those tend to get fixed (TIE Advanced).

On MTG it only competes on X-wing the same way monopoly, halo and Netrunner competes as far as games. There is no direct competition but more of a indirect competition of leisure budget and time. To compare it with MTG as far as business competition would be like comparing gas station prices to bus fares, it would only compete is someone both owns a car and takes the buss to commute.

As far as how did some Warhammer 40,000 players could afford such an army especially at the prices. Where several factors were key. For one many of us before 2008 were making much more money. Now that I am taking classes again I make no money, but in the past I could afford Warhammer models at the prices they were in 2005-2008. Since 2008 it has gone through several annual price increases. Also many of us had to change our career paths between then in a less than reliable economy.

So yeah in the past some people were making more and the models didn't cost as much.

I used to play WH40K.

But with time i just didnt enjoy the game anymore. I then analysed what might be the reasons and came to folowing conclusion:

- I never felt the WH40K setting was alive. Most of the background was actually either stupid or taken from some other settings.

- I was in for 40K because it was (then in `93, when i started) the only tabletop or at least the only TT available to me.

- I continued to play 40K only because i put in the past time so many hours of work into the models.

- GW was from month to month worse when it comes to be customer friendly

- The balance of the game came to be worse too (especially the last few codices)

- The game was counting more and more on big battles (new minis were more and more the really big ones)

- GW has a bad support of the game (no updates on older armies or updates on existing rules)

All this together made me quit WH40 mainly because i didnt want to support GW anymore. If WH/WH40K is not worth their time, why should it be worth mine.

FFG makes everything right for me and i am a big fan.

So i switched to Armada, X-Wing an Imperial Assault, when it comes to miniatures (plus of course all the nice boardgames from FFG)

My conclusion is: X-Wing is not taking 40K players away. GW is chasing their own players to other systems.

Greeting

H

I really don't get the defenders of GW. Even people who actively play the game gripe about GW's screwing of their customers. Ask an Ork player what they think about GW and be ready for a lot of bad language. We've got three major Ork players at our shop and since 7th ed came out we've got zero ork players who show up regularly. The last two tournaments died for lack of interest. Even the ones who came out good like Demons and Grey Knights gripe about the rules.

I don't see the same kind of complaints from X Wing players. Any new material for the game is greeted with happiness, not dread.

That seems to be the deciding factor for me.

I don't see the same kind of complaints from X Wing players. Any new material for the game is greeted with happiness, not dread.

I've read a lot of posts about something being "broken", needing "fixing", and then there's the whole turrets, Rebels have more large ships than Imperials and, of course, the Damage Deck debates that have sparked the whole "petition" nonsense threads.

I sense a disturbance in the Force

Could X-Wing become the new Games Workshop?

Everyone be happy or we're doomed!