I should note that, for me, the best way to scratch my grimdark / 40k itch is to play the game that got me into the universe in the first place:

Space Hulk

It is everything that 7th edition 40k is not: balanced rules, interesting and diverse scenarios, true moments of excitement and dramatic tension, lots of meaningful tactical decisions to make. And it all fits in one large box. It's not cheap as far as boardgames go, but for $125 US (assuming you paid full MSRP) you're good to go... so it's way cheaper than 40k, for sure.

Space Hulk is loads of fun and is probably the best game ever made with the 40k IP.

Space Hulk is loads of fun and is probably the best game ever made with the 40k IP.

Epic and BFG would be strong contenders for that title...

I think Necromunda or Inquisitor could easily equal those.

GW had the opportunity to really go for the skirmish / warband level game which is a huge part of the miniatures world these days, but instead they focused on getting people to buy the mass armies. Just look at how in recent years things like Malifaux and the Batman Minis Game have grown. That could have been GWs bag.

X-Wing is growing in popularity; absolutely no doubt about that. And a big part of that is the straight out of the box gaming experience it provides. Great rules, and ok quality pre-painted miniatures.

But is it cheap in comparison to 40k? If you only buy the bits you need from online re-sellers or proxy cards then yes; definitely. However, if you prefer to buy all of the ships you need to build your 100 pt squad use Randolph's Han Shopped First calculator to see how much you're deluding yourself.

Is X-Wing outselling GW products like 40k? Who knows. FFG are an American Subsidiary of the French Games Company Asmodee, and as they publish their annual returns in America; they are not legally obliged to break their sales down into component parts. So whilst it may be entirely reasonable to guess that X-Wing makes up a huge chunk of their profits; unless you're an FFG accountant and are prepared to spill your guts on these here forums; I'm afraid it's all speculation.

Will Asmodee break down their annual return into component parts so that we can find out exactly how much is generated by X-Wing? Who knows, possibly, but it's more likely it'll be FFG's annual contribution to overall profits that'll be published.

As for GW profits getting smaller? Either this is lies, or that's just not true. Sorry to disappoint all of you GW haters, but not only are they holding their own; their profits have risen; albeit very, very modestly.

I probably won't be here in 25 years; but I'm pretty much guessing that neither will X-Wing miniatures. It'll be a nostalgic footnote in whatever passes for the interweb in the future.

Cheers

Baaa

I have a question.

Since i am no economical expert i find the link Baaaa posted in this forum quiet interesting. But i would like someone who knows better than me to explain this to me (because i am no native english speaker and i am really bad in economics). But it appears to me, that GW just made more money than 2014 because the expenses were lower (closing all the centrals around the world and firing people). Or do i see something wrong?

Greetings

H

Thats exactly whats happening with GW! There trying desperately to stem the hemorrhaging of money by trimming as much fat from the company as they possibly can, which has led to year on year price rises,the wide spread reliance on one man stores and the revamp of Warhammer Fantasy into!......."Just thinking it makes me want to Vomit" Age of Sigmar......

Space Hulk is loads of fun and is probably the best game ever made with the 40k IP.

Epic and BFG would be strong contenders for that title...

Also Blood Bowl.

Space Hulk is loads of fun and is probably the best game ever made with the 40k IP.

Epic and BFG would be strong contenders for that title...

Also Blood Bowl.

Technically WFB IP, though since it occurs in an alternate universe it might be its own IP.

Intro level games were all great.

Mordheim, Necromunda, Space Hulk, Gorka Morka, BFG, Bloodbowl. Bought them all, loved them all.

Never accept the 'We aren't a games company' excuse.

It's really just 'Rules are hard when all the game designers leave, just buy our models'

Old gw player here.

Seriously, after playing star wars armada and x-wing, I just can't bring myself to play 40k anymore after playing it for 8+ years.

It's such a badly designed GAME (the lore and models are still first class). I buy models to game with them not to have them on a shelf or to paint them. If I stop enjoying the game - no more models. This is what GW as a company doesn't understand.

The rules need a major rewrite to make games flow faster, be more engaging and facilitate actual strategy and tactics.

After playing armada and x-wing, 40k just feels sluggish, slow, braindead, strategy-less and ultimately it suffers the worst fate a miniatures or board game can suffer - it's boring as all hell.

A friend of mine wanted to pick up a copy of space hulk I pointed him at Level 7: Omega Protocol instead its a much more of a gamer's game then space hulk and was half the price.

I loved most of the old gw games but its not hard to find better alternatives now.

I did not quit 40K for X-Wing (I did that for Fantasy around the time of 5th). I did play X-Wing for a bit, but have given it up for Armada.

Playing nothing but Malifaux and Armada atm actually. Can't afford more than 2 games currently.

A friend of mine wanted to pick up a copy of space hulk I pointed him at Level 7: Omega Protocol instead its a much more of a gamer's game then space hulk and was half the price.

More of a "Gamer's Game"? What does that even mean? Not an attack, just literally do not understand the statement.

In other news, Suicide Mission is still hella fun no matter how many times I play it, and winning is never guaranteed, so it always feels good.

A friend of mine wanted to pick up a copy of space hulk I pointed him at Level 7: Omega Protocol instead its a much more of a gamer's game then space hulk and was half the price.

More of a "Gamer's Game"? What does that even mean? Not an attack, just literally do not understand the statement.

In other news, Suicide Mission is still hella fun no matter how many times I play it, and winning is never guaranteed, so it always feels good.

Caution: Language

A friend of mine wanted to pick up a copy of space hulk I pointed him at Level 7: Omega Protocol instead its a much more of a gamer's game then space hulk and was half the price.

More of a "Gamer's Game"? What does that even mean? Not an attack, just literally do not understand the statement.

In other news, Suicide Mission is still hella fun no matter how many times I play it, and winning is never guaranteed, so it always feels good.

\

kinda thought the opposite of winning was guaranteed in a suicide mission?

A friend of mine wanted to pick up a copy of space hulk I pointed him at Level 7: Omega Protocol instead its a much more of a gamer's game then space hulk and was half the price.

More of a "Gamer's Game"? What does that even mean? Not an attack, just literally do not understand the statement.

If space-hulk is your jam that's fine, its just one dude on the Internets opinion. If at the end of the day your having fun with you mates who cares what the game is.

By a "gamer's game" I mean that the games rules, mechanics and strategy are more interesting and better developed and will more likely appeal to the veteran gamer. The miniatures might not be perfect but the game play is solid.

I'm not a "GW hater" just a Aussie gamer who supported their company for years and isn't the target for this new "We sell action figure sized models and our models/tools are the best in the world therefore you must pay three to four times the price" garbage. Don't call me a "GW hater" I'm more like a "GW divorcee" at some point I as a consumer of games products didn't fit into their business model and that's fine there are better companies out there with better workshops for making games.

A friend of mine wanted to pick up a copy of space hulk I pointed him at Level 7: Omega Protocol instead its a much more of a gamer's game then space hulk and was half the price.

More of a "Gamer's Game"? What does that even mean? Not an attack, just literally do not understand the statement.

In other news, Suicide Mission is still hella fun no matter how many times I play it, and winning is never guaranteed, so it always feels good.

this must be the "no genestealers until turn six" version of suicide mission

Intro level games were all great.

Mordheim, Necromunda, Space Hulk, Gorka Morka, BFG, Bloodbowl. Bought them all, loved them all.

Never accept the 'We aren't a games company' excuse.

It's really just 'Rules are hard when all the game designers leave, just buy our models'

Not to forget 1993:s naval fleet game Man o War. Fun to play fleet action with some squadrons "ship of the line", a few big Man o War class warships and special independents.

Intro level games were all great.

Mordheim, Necromunda, Space Hulk, Gorka Morka, BFG, Bloodbowl. Bought them all, loved them all.

Never accept the 'We aren't a games company' excuse.

It's really just 'Rules are hard when all the game designers leave, just buy our models'

Not to forget 1993:s naval fleet game Man o War. Fun to play fleet action with some squadrons "ship of the line", a few big Man o War class warships and special independents.

What about that new assassins game they put out? ...

Intro level games were all great.

Mordheim, Necromunda, Space Hulk, Gorka Morka, BFG, Bloodbowl. Bought them all, loved them all.

Never accept the 'We aren't a games company' excuse.

It's really just 'Rules are hard when all the game designers leave, just buy our models'

Not to forget 1993:s naval fleet game Man o War. Fun to play fleet action with some squadrons "ship of the line", a few big Man o War class warships and special independents.

What about that new assassins game they put out? ...

played it a couple of times. wasn't bad, but wasn't great

played it a couple of times. wasn't bad, but wasn't great

I haven't played it, but the issue I have heard from friends who have, is that it's really, really average for a board game, but with a premium price tag. Board game players can get a much higher quality game that they will play many more times for less money. You're just paying a huge premium because it contains GW models. If it's a board game you're after then why bother when for less money you could get something like Terra Mystica, Agricola or Scythe (or, to plug an FFG game, Game of Thrones: The Board Game)? You'll get many, many more hours of enjoyment from any of these games than from a current GW stand-alone, along with really solid rules, rather than half-baked just to sell more models.

The older GW games like Necromunda though, you got massive amounts more enjoyment and play-time and much better rules than what they produce these days. GW can do it, they just refuse to. Why sell someone a game they can play for years with a relatively small out-lay when they can sell you a game you'll only play a few times and then come back to buy the next one, or come back to buy more models for one of their main games? They just don't understand, or want to understand, how the specialist games kept people in "the hobby".

(Shameless plug: board game fans should check out Scythe here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jameystegmaier/scythe)

I don't think Space Hulk or Talisman/Relic are very good games, either- but they came out in the early 90s when that was where board games were at.

I'd like an overhaul of 40k to go back to stats, minimizing special rules, making cover really worth it again etc.

Really, 40K needs the AOS treatment infinity times more than fantasy did. Fantasy just needed a rebalance.

Oldhammer needs to be a thing, they need to bring back the realm of chaos feels, and skirmish ~20 marine/60 guardsman gaming.

Sorry but i'm not a fan of huge battles, huge battles should only be a thing if you have 8X16 tables...

Or you are using 10mm minis, and measuring in mm's...

I'd like an overhaul of 40k to go back to stats, minimizing special rules, making cover really worth it again etc.

Really, 40K needs the AOS treatment infinity times more than fantasy did. Fantasy just needed a rebalance.

Oldhammer needs to be a thing, they need to bring back the realm of chaos feels, and skirmish ~20 marine/60 guardsman gaming.

Sorry but i'm not a fan of huge battles, huge battles should only be a thing if you have 8X16 tables...

Or you are using 10mm minis, and measuring in mm's...

The AoS treatment will kill 40k.

As proof people have already said they've stopped buying out of fear it'll become obsolete, no one will play an AoS version of 40k.

People want points values, they want structure and they really want balance AoS offers none of that.

Unbound rules never get used for a reason.

Sorry but i'm not a fan of huge battles, huge battles should only be a thing if you have 8X16 tables...

Or you are using 10mm minis, and measuring in mm's...

People want points values, they want structure and they really want balance AoS offers none of that.

Darius, I was looking into Flames of war for that kinda trying to replace the epic 40k game. I like a game where my ordinance is kinda a big deal and 40k is pretty much WW2.

Does 40k offer balance? I was winning 9/10 games against a friends chaos army with my guard or blood/dark angels ... then he bought a x-wing stater set.

40K DOES NOT EVER OFFER BALANCE, It is less balanced than AOS and that.... That takes effort dammit.

AOS with points values that reflect could work, like 40K needs it's skirmish format back.

Chaos got underwhelming dex's and suck as an army to play compared to space marines/eldar/tau.

I'd like an overhaul of 40k to go back to stats, minimizing special rules, making cover really worth it again etc.

Really, 40K needs the AOS treatment infinity times more than fantasy did. Fantasy just needed a rebalance.

Oldhammer needs to be a thing, they need to bring back the realm of chaos feels, and skirmish ~20 marine/60 guardsman gaming.

Sorry but i'm not a fan of huge battles, huge battles should only be a thing if you have 8X16 tables...

Or you are using 10mm minis, and measuring in mm's...

The AoS treatment will kill 40k.

As proof people have already said they've stopped buying out of fear it'll become obsolete, no one will play an AoS version of 40k.

People want points values, they want structure and they really want balance AoS offers none of that.

Unbound rules never get used for a reason.