How is someone who does not buy from the local store, or any local store (only online), and only plays when there is something to be won make the community better than players who buy from the local store and play with the local group?

That is a completely different debate, you assume here that people who attend a lot of events to gain prices are buying online and do not support their stores, that is a false assumption.

As for lazy does it matter if there is only one close by? How far do you have to go to not be lazy?

Lazy is a relative notion we are all lazy in comparison to someone else. Maybe lazy is not the right word , my point is: people who travels a lot to attend multiple tournaments are making an effort that you don't. I am sure you have a good reason to not do so, that's is fine everyone is free to do whatever he wants, just don't blame people that makes the effort.

btw I didn't attend a single Sullust event so I might be the worst .

But to me the attitude is more important than skill,

Once again you are assuming that those people are jerks, false assumption.

Just as much as someone who shows up and plays not for the fun

That is a non sense, everyone play to have fun ,we just have fun in a different way , competitive player will have fun through challenge and competition, some other have fun by telling a stories with their game ... When those different gaming culture encounters this is where conflict can come up and this is how we see who is really tolerant.

I mean to focus on a portion of what I said earlier and expand on it a bit, there's nothing enforceable you can achieve by complaining about "prize sniping."

Would it not be possible to officially track the participants in a major-prize/pre-release event and limit the winning of each prize to one per player?

"Sorry, you already won the Star Destroyer. Would you like the Home One instead?"

Why is this a bad idea?

It's not reasonable at all. Wizards of the Coast does something similar for their major Magic The Gathering events. When they have something like this, it's an invitation-only event. It is not realistically possible to enforce this sort of policy for individual stores, and invitation events aren't something you can use to grow the community.

I hope I am not lazy. . . I only went to 3 events which were all in town. . .

While both sides are getting a bit defensive, I'm not sure what where you're going with this, since you don't exactly seem to be appealing for civility.

He's suggesting, correctly, that the topic was never going to accomplish anything other than provide an excuse for people to be nasty to each other.

Gotta' hand it to OP. I can still smell the gasoline from this casually tossed fire bomb.

Gotta' hand it to OP. I can still smell the gasoline from this casually tossed fire bomb.

I thought it was more of propane and hydrogen fire

nah I rubbed two sticks together.....maybe over a drum of propane and gasoline

For all those who do not support the side of players who travel to multiple events regardless if they have already won prizes or not, I summarise your counter arguments that in your experience that these 'outsiders' were rude and unsociable towards you and your community which we can all agree is unacceptable. This is a personality issue not a tournament prize issue. Your proposed solution to address this issue by limiting the number of prizes that can be won by a player does not help towards providing an incentive for those benefits I've outlined in my original post and other benefits presented by other posters. The reason this attitude towards external players winning prizes is flawed because of the many other situations that this attitude would not make sense to apply to, for example:

1. A player who travels to multiple events has won multiple prizes but was nice and sportsmanlike to everyone.
- Would you have a problem with this?
- What if he wanted to keep their prizes to offset the costs or bring back to their home FLGS?

2. A player who travels to multiple events but has won zero prizes and placed bottom all the time, but continues to go to other events with the sole aim of winning a prize because he loves wave 2 and isn't sour about losing.
- Would you have honestly given a second thought about this player?
- Would you have changed the tournament rules to get this player a prize?
- Would you have encouraged this person to come back even though they were not local?

3. A local player in your meta who had played in other events before the local one and has won prizes from them. This person is a nice, sportsmanlike and social person.
- Would you have a problem with this local player playing at the local event, even though they already have prizes?
- Would you expect him to keep or distribute the prizes if he/she won at the local event?
- Would the above questions change if this person was not nice, sportsmanlike and social but instead rude, unsportsmanlike and/or an introvert?

Prize winners who pass on their prizes to other players with the intentions of building the community and acknowledging the great running of the event are forever appreciated and stand as testament of sportsmanship. But to force prize winners into forgoing their prizes, you kill the great intentions and sportsmanship of these players and serve to do nothing but encourage less attendance at the event and isolating your own FLGS community.

How is someone who does not buy from the local store, or any local store (only online), and only plays when there is something to be won make the community better than players who buy from the local store and play with the local group?

That is a completely different debate, you assume here that people who attend a lot of events to gain prices are buying online and do not support their stores, that is a false assumption.

Not a completely different debate, just went to the extreme end. Earlier you said that they were better for the community than the local players, so I went to the extreme end, as I do not think that they are better for the community.

For all those who do not support the side of players who travel to multiple events regardless if they have already won prizes or not, I summarise your counter arguments that in your experience that these 'outsiders' were rude and unsociable towards you and your community which we can all agree is unacceptable. This is a personality issue not a tournament prize issue. Your proposed solution to address this issue by limiting the number of prizes that can be won by a player does not help towards providing an incentive for those benefits I've outlined in my original post and other benefits presented by other posters. The reason this attitude towards external players winning prizes is flawed because of the many other situations that this attitude would not make sense to apply to, for example:

1. A player who travels to multiple events has won multiple prizes but was nice and sportsmanlike to everyone.

- Would you have a problem with this? No

- What if he wanted to keep their prizes to offset the costs or bring back to their home FLGS? Again no, as to me it is not about the prize support it is about the game, and trying to make it fun for all. I do not even play often with locals who the only way they have fun is if they are crushing the other side.

2. A player who travels to multiple events but has won zero prizes and placed bottom all the time, but continues to go to other events with the sole aim of winning a prize because he loves wave 2 and isn't sour about losing.

- Would you have honestly given a second thought about this player? To be 100% honest I do not know, I would hope that I would try and make him feel welcomed, but do not know.

- Would you have changed the tournament rules to get this player a prize? No

- Would you have encouraged this person to come back even though they were not local? As long as they are fun to play, and hang out with, yes. If they are not, no.

3. A local player in your meta who had played in other events before the local one and has won prizes from them. This person is a nice, sportsmanlike and social person.

- Would you have a problem with this local player playing at the local event, even though they already have prizes? No

- Would you expect him to keep or distribute the prizes if he/she won at the local event? No

- Would the above questions change if this person was not nice, sportsmanlike and social but instead rude, unsportsmanlike and/or an introvert? No, I would not play with against them much, but unless he is really bad (chasing) others away I would not kick him out either. We have one in our local group and we try to keep everyone happy and having a fun time.

Prize winners who pass on their prizes to other players with the intentions of building the community and acknowledging the great running of the event are forever appreciated and stand as testament of sportsmanship. But to force prize winners into forgoing their prizes, you kill the great intentions and sportsmanship of these players and serve to do nothing but encourage less attendance at the event and isolating your own FLGS community.

My answers are above in bold after the questions.

That's some really bold answers you have there...

But to me the attitude is more important than skill,

Once again you are assuming that those people are jerks, false assumption.

Just as much as someone who shows up and plays not for the fun

That is a non sense, everyone play to have fun ,we just have fun in a different way , competitive player will have fun through challenge and competition, some other have fun by telling a stories with their game ... When those different gaming culture encounters this is where conflict can come up and this is how we see who is really tolerant.

For the first part I went on to say "If you show up and are better than me (good chance that will be the case) but are here for the fun, I am all for you being there and hoping that we can have you show up more. This will make all of us better." So I am not saying that they all are jerks, I am not even saying that most of them are jerks. I was saying that some of them are jerks, same as there are some jerks in the local groups. So it is not a false assumption, it is generally accepted that some people are jerks, and you will find them from time to time no mater what you do.

As for the second part, maybe I should have stated it differently. If you show up and the only way that you can have fun if if they do not, or that you are only having fun if you are wining. What ever specific thing does not matter, if you are not helping to make it fun for everyone was what I was talking about. I do not know if every group has one, I would guess/hope that is not the case. But I think most everyone know someone like this.

How is someone who does not buy from the local store, or any local store (only online), and only plays when there is something to be won make the community better than players who buy from the local store and play with the local group?

That is a completely different debate, you assume here that people who attend a lot of events to gain prices are buying online and do not support their stores, that is a false assumption.

Not a completely different debate, just went to the extreme end. Earlier you said that they were better for the community than the local players, so I went to the extreme end, as I do not think that they are better for the community.

For all those who do not support the side of players who travel to multiple events regardless if they have already won prizes or not, I summarise your counter arguments that in your experience that these 'outsiders' were rude and unsociable towards you and your community which we can all agree is unacceptable. This is a personality issue not a tournament prize issue. Your proposed solution to address this issue by limiting the number of prizes that can be won by a player does not help towards providing an incentive for those benefits I've outlined in my original post and other benefits presented by other posters. The reason this attitude towards external players winning prizes is flawed because of the many other situations that this attitude would not make sense to apply to, for example:

1. A player who travels to multiple events has won multiple prizes but was nice and sportsmanlike to everyone.

- Would you have a problem with this? No

- What if he wanted to keep their prizes to offset the costs or bring back to their home FLGS? Again no, as to me it is not about the prize support it is about the game, and trying to make it fun for all. I do not even play often with locals who the only way they have fun is if they are crushing the other side.

2. A player who travels to multiple events but has won zero prizes and placed bottom all the time, but continues to go to other events with the sole aim of winning a prize because he loves wave 2 and isn't sour about losing.

- Would you have honestly given a second thought about this player? To be 100% honest I do not know, I would hope that I would try and make him feel welcomed, but do not know.

- Would you have changed the tournament rules to get this player a prize? No

- Would you have encouraged this person to come back even though they were not local? As long as they are fun to play, and hang out with, yes. If they are not, no.

3. A local player in your meta who had played in other events before the local one and has won prizes from them. This person is a nice, sportsmanlike and social person.

- Would you have a problem with this local player playing at the local event, even though they already have prizes? No

- Would you expect him to keep or distribute the prizes if he/she won at the local event? No

- Would the above questions change if this person was not nice, sportsmanlike and social but instead rude, unsportsmanlike and/or an introvert? No, I would not play with against them much, but unless he is really bad (chasing) others away I would not kick him out either. We have one in our local group and we try to keep everyone happy and having a fun time.

Prize winners who pass on their prizes to other players with the intentions of building the community and acknowledging the great running of the event are forever appreciated and stand as testament of sportsmanship. But to force prize winners into forgoing their prizes, you kill the great intentions and sportsmanship of these players and serve to do nothing but encourage less attendance at the event and isolating your own FLGS community.

My answers are above in bold after the questions.

Excellent answers! So it would seem the 'Prize Sniping' issue is with players with poor personalities rather than being a external traveling player coming to play regardless of their intentions.

For all those who do not support the side of players who travel to multiple events regardless if they have already won prizes or not, I summarise your counter arguments that in your experience that these 'outsiders' were rude and unsociable towards you and your community which we can all agree is unacceptable. This is a personality issue not a tournament prize issue. Your proposed solution to address this issue by limiting the number of prizes that can be won by a player does not help towards providing an incentive for those benefits I've outlined in my original post and other benefits presented by other posters. The reason this attitude towards external players winning prizes is flawed because of the many other situations that this attitude would not make sense to apply to, for example:

1. A player who travels to multiple events has won multiple prizes but was nice and sportsmanlike to everyone.

- Would you have a problem with this?

- What if he wanted to keep their prizes to offset the costs or bring back to their home FLGS?

2. A player who travels to multiple events but has won zero prizes and placed bottom all the time, but continues to go to other events with the sole aim of winning a prize because he loves wave 2 and isn't sour about losing.

- Would you have honestly given a second thought about this player?

- Would you have changed the tournament rules to get this player a prize?

- Would you have encouraged this person to come back even though they were not local?

3. A local player in your meta who had played in other events before the local one and has won prizes from them. This person is a nice, sportsmanlike and social person.

- Would you have a problem with this local player playing at the local event, even though they already have prizes?

- Would you expect him to keep or distribute the prizes if he/she won at the local event?

- Would the above questions change if this person was not nice, sportsmanlike and social but instead rude, unsportsmanlike and/or an introvert?

Prize winners who pass on their prizes to other players with the intentions of building the community and acknowledging the great running of the event are forever appreciated and stand as testament of sportsmanship. But to force prize winners into forgoing their prizes, you kill the great intentions and sportsmanship of these players and serve to do nothing but encourage less attendance at the event and isolating your own FLGS community.

1) No I guess I wouldn't. A positive attitude brings a lot to a gaming group, be it from inside or outside. And honestly once he's won those prizes, it's not like I expect him to surrender them or trade them off or give them back in any way. However personally I might feel he/she has earned those prizes through good play and shouldn't be punished for it.

2) Hrm, this one really exposes the flaw in my thinking, even enough that I can see it through the bias. Because I wouldn't think twice about inviting this player so long as they were nice, and I would feel a little badly if in all their travelling they didn't win anything. I would absolutely encourage them to come back if they were pleasant to deal with.

3) Again, this exposes the bias in my thinking. He's put the work in, he's won the games, why does it matter if he wins more? But for me I guess it feels like...like it goes against "Fair Play"? A notion that has probably become exaggerated in my own mind. I like everyone to have an equal shot at the prizes and I feel kind of like, no matter how nice you are and how much good you are for the community, if you've already won one of each prize available you should maybe make room for someone else?...which is dumb, because it's not a zero sum system. Yes, assuming all players are of equal skill, adding another play does slightly reduce other players chances of winning (I don't know the exact percentage, math is a weak point) but it also reduces his/her chance of winning a second time doesn't it?

And I agree with your closing point, I don't think you should ever FORCE players to do anything with the prizes they've earned other than what they, personally, want to do with said prize. I think in my personal case it comes down to a distorted view of fair play, which might explain why my answers seem so schizophrenic. I don't like it when people take more than one of the same prize, but I'd never advocate taking it away from them or making them give it away. Maybe...hm. I think really what would make me happy was if that person came back with said prize, and played with my group more than just the one tournament. At least that way we see them more, get to know them better and have them as a kind of additional member to the play circle. If they win the prize (fair and square) and then I never see that person again, I feel somehow cheated. Like we didn't win the prize OR get to benefit more than two or three games with a fresh perspective who knows his or her stuff.

For all those who do not support the side of players who travel to multiple events regardless if they have already won prizes or not, I summarise your counter arguments that in your experience that these 'outsiders' were rude and unsociable towards you and your community which we can all agree is unacceptable. This is a personality issue not a tournament prize issue. Your proposed solution to address this issue by limiting the number of prizes that can be won by a player does not help towards providing an incentive for those benefits I've outlined in my original post and other benefits presented by other posters. The reason this attitude towards external players winning prizes is flawed because of the many other situations that this attitude would not make sense to apply to, for example:

1. A player who travels to multiple events has won multiple prizes but was nice and sportsmanlike to everyone.

- Would you have a problem with this?

- What if he wanted to keep their prizes to offset the costs or bring back to their home FLGS?

2. A player who travels to multiple events but has won zero prizes and placed bottom all the time, but continues to go to other events with the sole aim of winning a prize because he loves wave 2 and isn't sour about losing.

- Would you have honestly given a second thought about this player?

- Would you have changed the tournament rules to get this player a prize?

- Would you have encouraged this person to come back even though they were not local?

3. A local player in your meta who had played in other events before the local one and has won prizes from them. This person is a nice, sportsmanlike and social person.

- Would you have a problem with this local player playing at the local event, even though they already have prizes?

- Would you expect him to keep or distribute the prizes if he/she won at the local event?

- Would the above questions change if this person was not nice, sportsmanlike and social but instead rude, unsportsmanlike and/or an introvert?

Prize winners who pass on their prizes to other players with the intentions of building the community and acknowledging the great running of the event are forever appreciated and stand as testament of sportsmanship. But to force prize winners into forgoing their prizes, you kill the great intentions and sportsmanship of these players and serve to do nothing but encourage less attendance at the event and isolating your own FLGS community.

1) No I guess I wouldn't. A positive attitude brings a lot to a gaming group, be it from inside or outside. And honestly once he's won those prizes, it's not like I expect him to surrender them or trade them off or give them back in any way. However personally I might feel he/she has earned those prizes through good play and shouldn't be punished for it.

2) Hrm, this one really exposes the flaw in my thinking, even enough that I can see it through the bias. Because I wouldn't think twice about inviting this player so long as they were nice, and I would feel a little badly if in all their travelling they didn't win anything. I would absolutely encourage them to come back if they were pleasant to deal with.

3) Again, this exposes the bias in my thinking. He's put the work in, he's won the games, why does it matter if he wins more? But for me I guess it feels like...like it goes against "Fair Play"? A notion that has probably become exaggerated in my own mind. I like everyone to have an equal shot at the prizes and I feel kind of like, no matter how nice you are and how much good you are for the community, if you've already won one of each prize available you should maybe make room for someone else?...which is dumb, because it's not a zero sum system. Yes, assuming all players are of equal skill, adding another play does slightly reduce other players chances of winning (I don't know the exact percentage, math is a weak point) but it also reduces his/her chance of winning a second time doesn't it?

And I agree with your closing point, I don't think you should ever FORCE players to do anything with the prizes they've earned other than what they, personally, want to do with said prize. I think in my personal case it comes down to a distorted view of fair play, which might explain why my answers seem so schizophrenic. I don't like it when people take more than one of the same prize, but I'd never advocate taking it away from them or making them give it away. Maybe...hm. I think really what would make me happy was if that person came back with said prize, and played with my group more than just the one tournament. At least that way we see them more, get to know them better and have them as a kind of additional member to the play circle. If they win the prize (fair and square) and then I never see that person again, I feel somehow cheated. Like we didn't win the prize OR get to benefit more than two or three games with a fresh perspective who knows his or her stuff.

Thank you for being honest with your answers. The questions were structured in a way to show you how the current thinking of 'Prize Sniping' is very hypocritical when applied in similar reversed situations and to show you that its not the prize system or the fact it is an external player that gives you issues but rather that the player themselves have poor personalities.

Let me address your point about 'fair play' in question 3. We all want fair play, this is done by everyone following the rules of the competition and that no one is cheating or colluding. I believe what you are alluding to is 'noob bashing' that is seen in other game genres such as FPS and RTS where there is a standard level of physical skill and co-ordination. Whilst Armada has certain levels of tactical prowess and co-ordination, they are skills used to manipulate probability of a desired outcome such as getting into a position to fire off shots into the rear arc of a VSD or something. The outcome will most likely be favorable to the player but there is still a chance they will flop the roll with blanks. So keeping this in mind, what I am saying is a player's previous wins at other tournaments has no bearing over the outcomes of the next tournament they play at. The only bearing they will have is a psychological on the people there if they know. It is up to you to choose how this affects you as I know different people will handle it in a different way, but ultimately it is up to you. For example, in another popular game called Texas Hold'em Poker, in which tournaments are held all over the world on a weekly basis, plenty of players show up to tournaments with 1st prize medals/tokens won from previous events to use a placeholder. Players at that person's table will see it and will decide to either ignore it and play normal or to watch out for whatever cunning plan this player has up his sleeves. Either way the prize from the previous tournament has no bearing on the outcome of the Poker game but a psychological one. Also, if you still truly believe that the player is that ungodly skilled in Armada then it would not be fair to let him play in only one event, and it would not be fair to your local community to not have the chance to knock off the champion or test their ideas against that person.

Also I'd like to address your point about feeling cheated by those who take prizes away from your community. Firstly I acknowledge that you would definitely feel this way due to most likely a strong sense of community bond with your local group vs a person you'd never met before. With the utmost respect, I must tell you that this problem lies with you and your decision to feel that way. What if me as an Australian where there is no Massing of Sullust (Yes FFG im going to keep pushing that point) had the means to travel to the USA and win your local event, taking home an ISD. Would you spread the hate of foreigners stealing your prizes OR add me on Skype so we can have that discussion about a game that we all love? See how that decision lies with you? Of course the most likely thing to influence that decision is if I was an asshat at your event or not right?

Don't think of your view as schizophrenic, you reacted with what information you had at the time. I just hope I was able to broaden your scope to make that decision on how to feel for the future when there is a wave 3 pre release event! I wish you the best of luck for your future games and tournaments.

I agree 100% with Irokenis the thing that people are complaining about is not "prize sniping" which is completely ok and even good for the community as I stated earlier, they are complaining about those people being jerks (sometimes).

So now the question is, why those people coming from outside are more likely to be jerks than locals , well it is pretty obvious to me:

- There are also jerks in your community, but by playing with them and learn to know them better you realized that those guys have good sides and are not as bad as it seems at first sight.

- As I said earlier different gaming group may have very different approach toward the game, someone who is playing within a certain culture is more likely to find a jerks someone who has an other gaming culture than him.

Let me give you an example: Depending on your gaming area, take back might be allowed or not, what I mean by take back is for example forget the token granted of Grand Moff Tarking or Garm and put them just before you activate rather than at the beginning of the turn, in some gaming area take back are pretty common and tolerated as long as it is not going out of control. In some other area take back are clearly forbidden in tournament. So now let say that an non local guy come to an event, is coming from a very competitive area where take back are not allowed, he forbids his opponent to get one, is opponent might call him a jerk for not being nice, but according to the non local he is just following a rule that is widely accepted in his gaming area.

To conclude I would say that non locals are likely to have a different approach of the game than you, so you should be more tolerant with them than you are with locals. To avoid any problem you should discuss with him at the start of the game to state the costume of your local group and make sure that you are on the same page .

If you are interested in casual games then you should be perfectly fine since you can get them when they are officially released.

Your argument seems to be predicated on the assumption that the only reason anyone would want the new ships is to increase their competitiveness. Is that really what you think?

There are winners and losers, complainers about 'prize sniping' are sore losers, up your game and start winning!

Winner, or loser. Don't be a jerk.

Can we close this thread now?

How is someone who does not buy from the local store, or any local store (only online), and only plays when there is something to be won make the community better than players who buy from the local store and play with the local group?

Just because they are travelling for events doesn't mean they are buying only online. They probably have their own home FLGS from which they buy. I know it's true for me - I have my own home store but I make it a point to buy something at every store I visit when I'm going around to events.

If you are interested in casual games then you should be perfectly fine since you can get them when they are officially released.

Your argument seems to be predicated on the assumption that the only reason anyone would want the new ships is to increase their competitiveness. Is that really what you think?

Sounds about right. Since they can't be used for tournaments, the only real reason one would want a new ship is so that you don't have to buy one of those later.

I paid for 2 tournaments at $20 each. I got 3rd place and 2md place and in my third tournament I was T0. So in the end I got 3 prizes. I bring this up because this game is about the competition.

FFG is not Oprah. Not everyone gets an ISD.

Sounds about right. Since they can't be used for tournaments, the only real reason one would want a new ship is so that you don't have to buy one of those later.

What's that got to do with being competitive?

While both sides are getting a bit defensive, I'm not sure what where you're going with this, since you don't exactly seem to be appealing for civility.

He's suggesting, correctly, that the topic was never going to accomplish anything other than provide an excuse for people to be nasty to each other.

Sounds about right. Since they can't be used for tournaments, the only real reason one would want a new ship is so that you don't have to buy one of those later.

What's that got to do with being competitive?

Oh, sorry, I think I see what you mean.

Yeah, so there are two (non-competitiveness based) reasons you'd want one: save money, and get it earlier. Yes?

Sounds about right. Since they can't be used for tournaments, the only real reason one would want a new ship is so that you don't have to buy one of those later.

What's that got to do with being competitive?

Oh, sorry, I think I see what you mean.

Yeah, so there are two (non-competitiveness based) reasons you'd want one: save money, and get it earlier. Yes?

You can't use it competitively until release and if you are using the stuff before wave 2 is released, you are forcing your regular opponents to find an answer which can only help then when they get wave 2.

Yeah, so there are two (non-competitiveness based) reasons you'd want one: save money, and get it earlier. Yes?

Exactly it.

You can't use it competitively until release and if you are using the stuff before wave 2 is released, you are forcing your regular opponents to find an answer which can only help then when they get wave 2.

Right, but that's two clear reasons for a casual player to want the cool new toys, so I still don't understand what you meant when you said:

If you are interested in casual games then you should be perfectly fine since you can get them when they are officially released.

Because getting them or not getting them really does not matter.

The only thing it would change would be your purchase order.

Because getting them or not getting them really does not matter.

The only thing it would change would be your purchase order.

I don't see how it matters any less than it does if you're a competitive player, it just matters for different reasons.

Because getting them or not getting them really does not matter.

The only thing it would change would be your purchase order.

I don't see how it matters any less than it does if you're a competitive player, it just matters for different reasons.