Just going to throw this out there as I believe most of us would agree that the act of "Prize Sniping" AKA attending another event with a large prize (like Massing of Sullust) is a perfectly acceptable if not encouraged practice regardless of the player's circumstances and/or intentions. Having players attend multiple events, even traveling great distances to attend is a great indicator that the Armada community is growing and interest is spreading. By giving them a negative label such as "Prize Sniping" you back pedal on growth as a whole and it only serves to isolate your own community.

These type players bring the following benefits:
- Boost numbers at a FLGS event, and therefore drives customer interest

- Boost on the day sales with drinks, food, products etc for the hosting FLGS
- Possibly boost the prize pool (if a large enough outcome)
- They bring knowledge or meta that your local group may have never experienced before and will now gain that knowledge, becoming better players in the process

- They take away knowledge or meta from your local group to bring back to their local group and become better players in the process

- The building blocks of community spirit and networking that spands across suburbs, cities and states. Something the internet can never provide because the experience is physically tangible.

It is entirely irrelevant if a few of these players have already won other events, already have the prizes, have intentions to sell their prizes online or whatever negative conditions that you can come up with because the above benefits still apply and they still have to win and if they do they are entitled to the prize fit for that win. The issue is not with external players attending but with a conflict of your interests with theirs. Yes, I acknowledge that there were some Massing of Sullust events that had minimal numbers, that is not the fault of the player who has gone out of their way to go to multiple events however. This is coming from me who lives in Australia where Massing of Sullust does not exist, have Armada events with minimum 10 players and read that all over the world that some Massing of Sullust events had only 2-6 players turn up. We would fully support anyone who travels to multiple MoS events if able and congratulate those that have won prizes, local or traveling.

So to all those groups that feel slighted that outsiders came to your event and won, think of it of as an business booster for your FLGS, a step forward in the growth of the game we all love and the opportunity to look inwards to yourself to why you did not win and then attend the next event to test what lessons were learnt.

If I was surrounded by local games stores I would 'prize snipe' so badly.... if that is what you call travelling to different shops to get in as many tournament games with your hobby as possible.

My closest Sullust event was 8-10 hours flight away.

Hobbies are for enjoying, you know. If someone has the time and means to play their hobby more than you, including travelling to many events, it's just luck on their part.

I can see this both way. if one or more people show up to play and are better then the locals so win all the prizes and are jerks that does not help out the store, same can be said for the locals. I have been to stores where the locals were just jerks, so I did not go even though it was in the same town. For a different game, there is one that I travel some distance to for a monthly game as the players are cool. One of the things that I see some people do that can be considered making them a jerk, is as they are beating up the locals saying how they are just here to win one more [insert prize here] so they can E-bay it off. To me if you had someone show up and as you are playing and they are beating the pants off of you, you find out that they were the winner at there local store, and won at another store, now they are trying to get the last prize they need for the faction they are playing to me at least that is different than we are just here to make money scalping product. I do not see scalping product as helping the community, is it illegal? No, is it immoral? No, is it uncouth? Yes, at least to me.

I couldn't agree more. The more people that show up to an event the better for everyone. If you are upset that you are the best player at your FLGS and expected to win first place but someone better than you came along and won first place get over yourself. If you loose to one of these people learn your lessons and take them into consideration for your next tournament. you should view these people as a friendly challenge instead of a threat.

I started playing with a new group a few weeks ago and started out as the worst player in the group. every time I go in for a game though I learn something new and get a little better, tournys are no different.

Am I the only one who sees people complaining about prize snipers as whiners? Just because they are the regulars at a store that doesn't mean they are entitled to the prize support at an event. The prize support still needs to be won. If they can't defend their home turf when someone from out of town jumps in, they only have themselves to blame. The "Prize Sniper" just played 3 rounds of Armada with your players. That's 6 hours of intel and instruction. Learn from it. Get better at the game. Beat him the next time he comes back.

I have found in other games that the people most offended are it are the people who play only in there store. They may play the same 5-6 people week in and week out and then they ask someone to run a tournament one Saturday so they can prove they are the best-est in their store. The event is created and advertised and then random dude smoking a cigar and wearing a poncho comes in all Dirty Harry style and wins the event. I have heard it all from "I am not playing in tournaments to give someone else my money" to "I am so disappointed no one from our store won and we let some outsider take our prizes". I find it pretty funny to be fair. As someone who enjoys traveling to stores and the competition I have no problems with it. People who feel to be disappointed the most are the ones who try to fiance their hobby with tournament winnings. You have to be very good and very lucky to continually do that, and even so, if you won an ISD at a MoS event, the event cost around $15, then you have travel time, and probably lunch or dinner.... you didn't save anything.

MoS is a bit different since its pre-releases and I can understand why people may be upset when an outsider shows up to his 2nd or 3rd event. Its just the nature of the beast.

We have a few local stores here who tried not doing prizes. For WM/H it as a free tournament and either the TO or the Store ate the cost of the Steamroller Pins/Coins and that was all that was given. Others have tried no entrance fee and just ate the cost of a league kit to give away. Both those events had lower than normal turnouts since there was little excitement or thrill in trying to win some free swag.

This is not an uncommon "issue" in the world of miniature gaming, and I suspect that some people who play armada are new to that scene.

Take the two words "entitlement" and "earning". Plug them into this topic.

Thats all one needs to do.

I think i said most of my piece in the other thread, so just "agreed" really.

I just cant get my head around better players travelling to play with you being a bad thing. I'd still be HORRIBLE at Warmachine if i'd never had my ass handed to my hundreds of times at local tournaments, then non-local tournaments, and later Nationals.

Losing to better players is the best thing that can happen to you if you have the right mindset.

Be better than them, and you'll get the prizes. if you aren't better, learn from them and improve, THEN be better next time.

Problem solved.

First, if someone comes in from out of town and wins so be it. That should be a good indicator that you need to up your game and get out of your rut. Its very easy to be a big winner in one meta and then go to a completely different one and get owned. I encourage people to travel to different areas to play it makes the game more interesting for everyone involved. Plus, in an event like Sullust if someone comes in and wins first there are still 3-4 other very nice prizes.

I think i said most of my piece in the other thread, so just "agreed" really.

I just cant get my head around better players travelling to play with you being a bad thing. I'd still be HORRIBLE at Warmachine if i'd never had my ass handed to my hundreds of times at local tournaments, then non-local tournaments, and later Nationals.

Losing to better players is the best thing that can happen to you if you have the right mindset.

Be better than them, and you'll get the prizes. if you aren't better, learn from them and improve, THEN be better next time.

Problem solved.

Like WM/H and really any other game, I think its easy to feel comfortable in your meta. I know a lot of people who suffer from Big Fish, Little Pond syndrome and when they get to the ocean its a rude awakening. Some people can not handle it and others are motivated to keep pushing and try harder. It really comes down to the individual. We all like to win, no one enjoys losing. Some people like winning a bit too much, others could take it or leave it as long as they have had fun and the game was good.

Some players only want to play in their little vacuum and that is ok. It really is. I would suggest not running an organized play then if you don't want "prize snipers"

Think of these people as regional competition. They will be there and getting to see and learn their style now is a good thing.

The event is created and advertised and then random dude smoking a cigar and wearing a poncho comes in all Dirty Harry style and wins the event.

The Man with No Name had a poncho and smoked a cigar. Dirty Harry had a giant gun and asked people whether or not they felt lucky.

I think just playing for the prizes is against the spirit of the actual game. Just like when the dude from IFF (sorry, forgot your name) was describing the scene in his not so local games store.

But ultimately it does help in a way. If you have people sniping, they're gonna have to be reasonably skillful, and that just creates better competition. Also more money for the game store for Armada is always a good thing.

As long as the 'snipers' are friendly, especially towards the newer players, I dont think 'sniping' is a big deal.

if one or more people show up to play and are better then the locals so win all the prizes and are jerks that does not help out the store, same can be said for the locals.

The problem is based on this one single assumption. Why is someone from out of town better than the locals? What if the local store is the one the World Champion happens to play at?

The whole idea of prize snipping is based on the faulty premise that people coming to that store are in a higher weight class and the locals stand no chance.

There is no professional circuit for any of FFG's games, and just because you won the world championship doesn't mean you can never be beat.

I was more miffed by the fact that we had players come in from out of store, who threatened the smooth running of the tournament in order to change the rules on it...

... the TO capitulated and I lost a prize for it in the end... But one of them gained one...

So it bugs me a bit... BUt I'm also powerless to do anything about it, because as much as I'd love to Run the tournaments myself, I, as a member of the public, are unable to direct-order Tournament packs from the distributor, and the Local Games Stores won't on my behalf, either.

I do find it amusing to read about the people getting butt-hurt over "strangers" coming in and taking their local community for a ride and leaving with the prizes. It just puts a big neon sign over their entitled ****** baggery. I had a similar situation during last year's Star Wars LCG Store Championship. A guy from NoVa came down because IIRC, he didn't win the 1st round bye at his store. After the tournament, he came in first and beat me by 1/2 a game. I didn't really care much because I got in 6 fun games and I learned quite a bit by playing him as he (I think this was also mentioned either above or in another thread) brought a new wrinkle to our meta that I hadn't seen before. I am a better player because of it (and am looking forward to hopefully playing him again this season).

I like to compare one's local meta to a gene pool. If left stagnant, things start to get inbred. You need those outside players to come in and shake things up to keep the local scene fresh and evolving.

I would also chime in that I agree with the OP.

That being said, simple manners and politeness on the part of the "prize sniper" goes a long way towards fostering a positive experience for everyone, and a healthy forum discussion to remind them that some friendly humility can be the entire difference between what a group sees as "prize sniping" vs. "a great game by a great opponent where I learned some new things".

Bragging about how you are going to sell your winnings online does not a friendly atmosphere make.

The event is created and advertised and then random dude smoking a cigar and wearing a poncho comes in all Dirty Harry style and wins the event.

The Man with No Name had a poncho and smoked a cigar. Dirty Harry had a giant gun and asked people whether or not they felt lucky.

Was giving a nod to his probably 2 most famous roles. Either way I am glad someone else made the correlation.

I think just playing for the prizes is against the spirit of the actual game. Just like when the dude from IFF (sorry, forgot your name) was describing the scene in his not so local games store.

But ultimately it does help in a way. If you have people sniping, they're gonna have to be reasonably skillful, and that just creates better competition. Also more money for the game store for Armada is always a good thing.

As long as the 'snipers' are friendly, especially towards the newer players, I dont think 'sniping' is a big deal.

Playing for prizes isn't really against the spirit of the game. The game decides a clear victor and loser. The tournament is a format used to declare the best ManDollieShip Admiral on the day. It is a miniature wargame. I do agree as long as "snipers" are friendly about it, it shouldn't be an issue.

if one or more people show up to play and are better then the locals so win all the prizes and are jerks that does not help out the store, same can be said for the locals.

The problem is based on this one single assumption. Why is someone from out of town better than the locals? What if the local store is the one the World Champion happens to play at?

The whole idea of prize snipping is based on the faulty premise that people coming to that store are in a higher weight class and the locals stand no chance.

There is no professional circuit for any of FFG's games, and just because you won the world championship doesn't mean you can never be beat.

Agreed 150%.

I was more miffed by the fact that we had players come in from out of store, who threatened the smooth running of the tournament in order to change the rules on it...

... the TO capitulated and I lost a prize for it in the end... But one of them gained one...

So it bugs me a bit... BUt I'm also powerless to do anything about it, because as much as I'd love to Run the tournaments myself, I, as a member of the public, are unable to direct-order Tournament packs from the distributor, and the Local Games Stores won't on my behalf, either.

That is a whole different issue. I may have missed it but how was the smooth runnings (hah i said it like cool runnings in my head) threatened. I do find it weird your LGS won't let you run the events.

I was more miffed by the fact that we had players come in from out of store, who threatened the smooth running of the tournament in order to change the rules on it...

... the TO capitulated and I lost a prize for it in the end... But one of them gained one...

That is a whole different issue. I may have missed it but how was the smooth runnings (hah i said it like cool runnings in my head) threatened. I do find it weird your LGS won't let you run the events.

Tournament opened with Top 5 getting prizes (as the LGS has an Employee who is Employed to Run Tournaments, and he doesn't play Armada)...

A group (6) people who did not play at the store came in, and essentially stated that if there was not a prize for last place, then the moment any of them were defeated by a large margin, and could not have a chance at the top, they would drop from the tournament.

Consequently, one of them finished in last place, and I finished 5th with nothing after playing 3 of them.

I mean, the argument is of course had I won, then there wouldn't have been an issue because I would gave gotten something anyway... But I still feel a bit cheated because the rules changed.

I was more miffed by the fact that we had players come in from out of store, who threatened the smooth running of the tournament in order to change the rules on it...

... the TO capitulated and I lost a prize for it in the end... But one of them gained one...

The problem you should be focusing on here is that you had a jackass show up to your tournament and screw it up for everybody else, which you would (rightfully) be pissed about regardless of whether he's a local guy or not. The problem is not that some big out-of-town Jasper showed up. Conflating his jackassery with the unrelated fact that he came in from somewhere else is, yes, harmful to the community.

Yes. YES. I travel a lot for tournaments! I hope people don't automatically assume I'm a ******. Let me at least PROVE I'm a jerk first!

I would also chime in that I agree with the OP.

That being said, simple manners and politeness on the part of the "prize sniper" goes a long way towards fostering a positive experience for everyone, and a healthy forum discussion to remind them that some friendly humility can be the entire difference between what a group sees as "prize sniping" vs. "a great game by a great opponent where I learned some new things".

Bragging about how you are going to sell your winnings online does not a friendly atmosphere make.

simple manners and politeness should just be implied. The majority of miniature gamers are slightly socially awkward introverted nerds. Its not 100% true but in my 15 years or so of Man Dollies its been a continual theme from event to event. Some are worse than others. There is a good correlation between the number of people who competitively play these games and the ones who did not do sports as kids. This is there sports. Its a test of mettle and intellect and in a lot of ways beating someone, on some level, proves your are smarter than them. Its been a topic in WM/H in the passed and that's why people take these games so seriously and passionately. Its not as main stream as sports so its easier to tell some "its just a game" but so is professional football. It is the same desire to prove ones worth. So when the man with no name walks in, rocking some "top tier" list and starts dropping m80s in your small pond people take it very personally. Its kind of fascinating. Dude could be the nicest guy in the world but hes threatening their ego and self worth on some subconscious level and hence we have what we have right now.

That is a whole different issue. I may have missed it but how was the smooth runnings (hah i said it like cool runnings in my head) threatened. I do find it weird your LGS won't let you run the events.

Tournament opened with Top 5 getting prizes (as the LGS has an Employee who is Employed to Run Tournaments, and he doesn't play Armada)...

A group (6) people who did not play at the store came in, and essentially stated that if there was not a prize for last place, then the moment any of them were defeated by a large margin, and could not have a chance at the top, they would drop from the tournament.

Consequently, one of them finished in last place, and I finished 5th with nothing after playing 3 of them.

I mean, the argument is of course had I won, then there wouldn't have been an issue because I would gave gotten something anyway... But I still feel a bit cheated because the rules changed.

I mean, yeah, that's inarguably sh*tty for both the group to do and for the TO to go along with. But it's unrelated to whether they're from your store or not, unless I'm missing something.

Hell, the fact that they don't frequent the store anyway should have given the owner more freedom to tell them to pound sand if they were coming in with bad attitudes from the get-go...

Man Dollies

I love this and I'm stealing it.

if one or more people show up to play and are better then the locals so win all the prizes and are jerks that does not help out the store, same can be said for the locals.

The problem is based on this one single assumption. Why is someone from out of town better than the locals? What if the local store is the one the World Champion happens to play at?

The whole idea of prize snipping is based on the faulty premise that people coming to that store are in a higher weight class and the locals stand no chance.

There is no professional circuit for any of FFG's games, and just because you won the world championship doesn't mean you can never be beat.

Well that's not really true is it? Somebody travelling to multiple events some distances away from their homes is likely to be someone with more time and/or money and/or inclination to dedicate to the game than somebody who doesn't, so rights and wrongs aside I think it's reasonable to assume such a person is likely to be a decent player to a degree you couldn't assume about someone who only plays one a week at their local shop (plus the very act of travelling and playing multiple tournaments makes them a better player).