I hate to add this, but the kind of list you bring can also affect perceptions of prize sniping.

Any list people deem "competitive". (which is very flawed)

I would assume anything that is deemed net-decked. so GSD spam, C90 spam, Gallant Haven, Rhymer ball, GenCon Special. If multiple people brought it, its probably a competitive list. Not there are a ton of options in armada and its pretty clear cut what the most optimal choices are the majority of the time.

Well, I'm gonna put myself out there and disagree with you all - I think it's a shame when a few people get all the rewards and more people than need be are left out, even if the few who win are better players (I don't necessarily think that talent makes you most deserving of happiness). For most tournaments I wouldn't mind, but this was a special case, the only opportunity for quite a while to get these ships. Seems to me if you already have one then the nice thing to do is to let other people win the rest, or go and play but if you win donate (or sell for the cost of the tourny entry) your prize to another player.

I am sorry. I dont believe in the "participatrion trophy" ideology that has swept America up.

Those who want to win, those who strive to win, those who work to win will in the end win. There will be losers and there will be winners.

I am a ok player, I win more of my games than lose but I have yet to win a tournament. I want to win but I dont sit at home and practice on my own. That is likely an issue right there. I am not willing to put the time and effort into honing my skills on my own.

I am sorry. I dont believe in the "participatrion trophy" ideology that has swept America up.

Those who want to win, those who strive to win, those who work to win will in the end win. There will be losers and there will be winners.

I am a ok player, I win more of my games than lose but I have yet to win a tournament. I want to win but I dont sit at home and practice on my own. That is likely an issue right there. I am not willing to put the time and effort into honing my skills on my own.

That's a total non sequitur. We're not talking about trophies of any sort, we're talking about actual new stuff that you can use.

There's already prizes for showing up. Its usually an alt-art card or tokens or both depending on turnout. But a full prize for coming dead last? at first I was like "hell no".....but one time I saw a young kid (he was maybe 12?) show up to an X-wing tournament. The poor kid got STOMPED by better and older players. The LGS owner felt bad for him, so he gave him a free ship for his collection. With my eyes, I saw the kids face go from utter sadness to joy.

There's already prizes for showing up. Its usually an alt-art card or tokens or both depending on turnout. But a full prize for coming dead last? at first I was like "hell no".....but one time I saw a young kid (he was maybe 12?) show up to an X-wing tournament. The poor kid got STOMPED by better and older players. The LGS owner felt bad for him, so he gave him a free ship for his collection. With my eyes, I saw the kids face go from utter sadness to joy.

I like this but on a case by case basis. In the above example, that is warranted and totally awesome. Shop owner was helping his business by helping a new player. Top marks here. What I don't like are the guaranteed last place prizes because that leads to people gaming the system and purposely tanking to get them.

I hate to add this, but the kind of list you bring can also affect perceptions of prize sniping.

If you're rolling in with Motti, 2 VSD and 2 Glads, THEN you mention you've already won TWO ISDs....you're probably a sniper.

That is my favorite list to destroy! That and the GenCon Special!

I am sorry. I dont believe in the "participatrion trophy" ideology that has swept America up.

Those who want to win, those who strive to win, those who work to win will in the end win. There will be losers and there will be winners.

I am a ok player, I win more of my games than lose but I have yet to win a tournament. I want to win but I dont sit at home and practice on my own. That is likely an issue right there. I am not willing to put the time and effort into honing my skills on my own.

That's a total non sequitur. We're not talking about trophies of any sort, we're talking about actual new stuff that you can use.

Can't use in a tournament until they are officially released.

Admittedly, I do feel a little miffed when I run across players sporting multiple prize ships. Sullust was a chance for everybody to get a piece of Wave 2 before official release, and there's someone denying something new to another player. Of course, I also know I shouldn't be diminishing a player's skill in fairly winning that tournament, and would I snap up a second ship if I had the chance?

What I don't like the most about these kinds of matches is that there is nothing new for those who didn't get an exclusive ship. Sure we got the ISD cards, but the ISDs aren't even out yet!

What I'd like to see is previous tournament kits and their competitive goodies offered up as prizes for the runners-up who didn't get the prizes (like the assault frigate and Nebulon-B cards) as a second shot to get those competitive prizes, so everyone gets something unique. And for any 1-4 placed players, they'd have to choose if they want the unique ship or one of the unique cards.

For my second Sullust tournament, I had a number of the participation TIE Fighter promos from TOing a summer tournament. I handed these out to those who didn't get anything and it turns out, didn't have them.

This is a thread complaining about butt hurt people because those people complain about random dudes in their "local" tournament.

While being butt hurt about the rather objective term of prize sniper.

Where does it end?

Honestly IMHO if you wanna play local only, then play casual locally. The more people that are involved the more toxic ANYinternet community becomes. Just look at the huge MMOs like WOW, LOL, WOT etc. More people that play competitively, the more "competitive" their behaviour and language becomes.

We should just be happy that tabletop is a niche hobby or these forum might be really sour. Just reread what the relaunch of warhammer fantasy did to many discussion platforms....

I can see this both way. if one or more people show up to play and are better then the locals so win all the prizes and are jerks that does not help out the store, same can be said for the locals. I have been to stores where the locals were just jerks, so I did not go even though it was in the same town. For a different game, there is one that I travel some distance to for a monthly game as the players are cool. One of the things that I see some people do that can be considered making them a jerk, is as they are beating up the locals saying how they are just here to win one more [insert prize here] so they can E-bay it off. To me if you had someone show up and as you are playing and they are beating the pants off of you, you find out that they were the winner at there local store, and won at another store, now they are trying to get the last prize they need for the faction they are playing to me at least that is different than we are just here to make money scalping product. I do not see scalping product as helping the community, is it illegal? No, is it immoral? No, is it uncouth? Yes, at least to me.

A jerk is a jerk no matter how many events they go to.

Most major game communities exist because of players going out of their way to visit other game stores and attend events outside their immediate area. Getting annoyed because a few of them already won at another event is getting mad at people making a greater effort to support the community all over. It's a self-defeating policy and ultimately does nothing to expand the community.

I mean to focus on a portion of what I said earlier and expand on it a bit, there's nothing enforceable you can achieve by complaining about "prize sniping." I don't think it's a problem in the first place (see earlier post) beyond the fact that sometimes jerks are jerks (and should not be tolerated, regardless of the circumstances). If you're a store owner, you want as many people attending your events as possible. It improves the profit you make from the event (and you had to spend money on the Sullust kit!), draws in people from other game stores (who might make some purchases or even come around your store again in the future), and potentially even builds up local interest in the game/your meta/the products you sell. You have no incentives to play the local meta gatekeeper and turn non-jerk people away for things like this, and you're the only person involved who has the authority to set down rules or restrictions on participation.

Therefore, we're primarily discussing whether or not participants who don't win prizes from these events have a right to feel upset about it when people from outside their usual meta win them instead, and then perhaps if they're entitled to behave poorly towards those outsiders as a consequence*. You can pretty much have any opinion about it that you want but the short version is it doesn't matter because your feelings don't change the actual practical incentives of the store owner to allow those outsiders to participate. You can boycott those types of events but effectively all that does is takes your chance of winning things from a modest % to 0%. Therefore, because you don't have any control over changing the situation and the person who does has no incentive to change, I would recommend coming to peace with how it works and moving on with life.

Or to quote Garrison Keillor, "it's easier to put on a pair of slippers than to carpet the entire world."

*which... come on guys. You're not making the world a better place by being awful to people.

Somebody travelling to multiple events some distances away from their homes is likely to be someone with more time and/or money and/or inclination to dedicate to the game than somebody who doesn't

That is some mightily flawed logic there. You can have no way knowing anything of the sort. Perhaps they normally play with a friend or two, because there is no truly local game store, but they want to take a chance at winning a prize so they made a 2 hour trip.

Myself I think there is a point that if you've taken first place at a tournament already, especially one like the MoS where the prizes are pretty substantial, it would be nice to not claim a prize.

But the simple fact is that you as long as you won fairly, you deserve the prize regardless of how far you traveled.

I am sorry. I dont believe in the "participatrion trophy" ideology that has swept America up.

Those who want to win, those who strive to win, those who work to win will in the end win. There will be losers and there will be winners.

I am a ok player, I win more of my games than lose but I have yet to win a tournament. I want to win but I dont sit at home and practice on my own. That is likely an issue right there. I am not willing to put the time and effort into honing my skills on my own.

That's a total non sequitur. We're not talking about trophies of any sort, we're talking about actual new stuff that you can use.

Can't use in a tournament until they are officially released.

Which would be a great point for the competitive type who's only interested in tournament play, but I f you're interested in casual games, and in having lovely toys, then that doesn't matter to you.

Somebody travelling to multiple events some distances away from their homes is likely to be someone with more time and/or money and/or inclination to dedicate to the game than somebody who doesn't

That is some mightily flawed logic there. You can have no way knowing anything of the sort. Perhaps they normally play with a friend or two, because there is no truly local game store, but they want to take a chance at winning a prize so they made a 2 hour trip.Myself I think there is a point that if you've taken first place at a tournament already, especially one like the MoS where the prizes are pretty substantial, it would be nice to not claim a prize.But the simple fact is that you as long as you won fairly, you deserve the prize regardless of how far you traveled.

I don't think it's flawed logic at all. I didn't say they were guaranteed to be the better players, I agree there are certainly situations like you've described, I've been such a travelling player myself and been almost the worst player at the event, but I think on average the travelling to multiple events players are bound to be better than those who don't.

I agree, you've earned the prize by the rules of the system that we've all agreed to, I don't see how anybody could dispute that. I just don't think that's an argument against what the nice thing to do is, I believe they're separate points.

I mean to focus on a portion of what I said earlier and expand on it a bit, there's nothing enforceable you can achieve by complaining about "prize sniping."

Would it not be possible to officially track the participants in a major-prize/pre-release event and limit the winning of each prize to one per player?

"Sorry, you already won the Star Destroyer. Would you like the Home One instead?"

Why is this a bad idea?

I mean to focus on a portion of what I said earlier and expand on it a bit, there's nothing enforceable you can achieve by complaining about "prize sniping."

Would it not be possible to officially track the participants in a major-prize/pre-release event and limit the winning of each prize to one per player?

"Sorry, you already won the Star Destroyer. Would you like the Home One instead?"

Why is this a bad idea?

Not theoretically impossible, but FFG's tournament software is nowhere near robust enough to handle such a reporting situation.

Also, most people's complaints seem to be that people got multiple copies of the MaS prizes, period- I think they'd still be upset if someone got the ISD, MC80, and MC30.

And, frankly, it feels unnecessary and excessively tyrannical for FFG to actually mandate such a thing.

I am going to go further than the OP by saying that not only price snipers are not a problem, they are actually more useful to the community than regular player that stick to one FLGS.

The more events you attend the more useful you are it is as simple as that, if that guy won multiple prices that's a fair reward for his skills and also for all the miles he traveled to participate to multiple events and I don't see why he should give it to someone else.

If you are too lazy to travel around and participate to multiple events that is fair enough but don't blame other because they do.

On the other hand any unfriendly is toxic regardless if the guy is a local or not, in fact you should be more tolerant regarding non locals because they probably have a different gaming culture than yours, for example if a player come from a very competitive area, he probably has a approach toward the game that is a lot more serious than yours, accept the difference and accept the fact that you decided to play the game for fun if you get smashed.

What I don't like about that is you are insinuating that someone like me is Lazy.

I can see this both way. if one or more people show up to play and are better then the locals so win all the prizes and are jerks that does not help out the store, same can be said for the locals. I have been to stores where the locals were just jerks, so I did not go even though it was in the same town. For a different game, there is one that I travel some distance to for a monthly game as the players are cool. One of the things that I see some people do that can be considered making them a jerk, is as they are beating up the locals saying how they are just here to win one more [insert prize here] so they can E-bay it off. To me if you had someone show up and as you are playing and they are beating the pants off of you, you find out that they were the winner at there local store, and won at another store, now they are trying to get the last prize they need for the faction they are playing to me at least that is different than we are just here to make money scalping product. I do not see scalping product as helping the community, is it illegal? No, is it immoral? No, is it uncouth? Yes, at least to me.

A jerk is a jerk no matter how many events they go to.

Most major game communities exist because of players going out of their way to visit other game stores and attend events outside their immediate area. Getting annoyed because a few of them already won at another event is getting mad at people making a greater effort to support the community all over. It's a self-defeating policy and ultimately does nothing to expand the community.

I am not sure I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that with out people coming from out side the local area you will not have a good group?

I am going to go further than the OP by saying that not only price snipers are not a problem, they are actually more useful to the community than regular player that stick to one FLGS.

The more events you attend the more useful you are it is as simple as that, if that guy won multiple prices that's a fair reward for his skills and also for all the miles he traveled to participate to multiple events and I don't see why he should give it to someone else.

If you are too lazy to travel around and participate to multiple events that is fair enough but don't blame other because they do.

On the other hand any unfriendly is toxic regardless if the guy is a local or not, in fact you should be more tolerant regarding non locals because they probably have a different gaming culture than yours, for example if a player come from a very competitive area, he probably has a approach toward the game that is a lot more serious than yours, accept the difference and accept the fact that you decided to play the game for fun if you get smashed.

How is someone who does not buy from the local store, or any local store (only online), and only plays when there is something to be won make the community better than players who buy from the local store and play with the local group? As for lazy does it matter if there is only one close by? How far do you have to go to not be lazy? We were hoping that we would have some others show up, they did not. But to me the attitude is more important than skill, things like calling someone lazy because they will not/can not drive six hours to the next closest game to me is the "toxic" players that should be avoided. Just as much as someone who shows up and plays not for the fun, but to win one more prize to sell. If you show up and are better than me (good chance that will be the case) but are here for the fun, I am all for you being there and hoping that we can have you show up more. This will make all of us better. But this is very different than the first example.

Gotta' hand it to OP. I can still smell the gasoline from this casually tossed fire bomb.

I am sorry. I dont believe in the "participatrion trophy" ideology that has swept America up.

Those who want to win, those who strive to win, those who work to win will in the end win. There will be losers and there will be winners.

I am a ok player, I win more of my games than lose but I have yet to win a tournament. I want to win but I dont sit at home and practice on my own. That is likely an issue right there. I am not willing to put the time and effort into honing my skills on my own.

That's a total non sequitur. We're not talking about trophies of any sort, we're talking about actual new stuff that you can use.

Can't use in a tournament until they are officially released.

Which would be a great point for the competitive type who's only interested in tournament play, but I f you're interested in casual games, and in having lovely toys, then that doesn't matter to you.

There has to be winners and there has to be losers. If you want the prize you better fight for the win.

Gotta' hand it to OP. I can still smell the gasoline from this casually tossed fire bomb.

It might be time to wrap this thread up, because we're starting to get into name calling like "Lazy", which makes me really, really want to name call in return. I'm not lazy, I simply do not have the time and money to be able to travel outside of my area to attend additional tournaments. How does that make me "lazy", do tell?

IN general there seems to be a lot of assuming on the part of the Pro"Prize-Spining" people here, by calling those who think otherwise entitled, spoiled or butt-hurt. Perhaps, and I'm just going out on a limb here, perhaps it's more like we're all flawed human beings with our own flawed opinions of the things happening around us. To resort to this kind of name-calling is unbecoming of the quality of people on this board. I am PROUD to be a member of the Armada forum here, and you can express your thoughts without resorting to this kind of shaming language.

I agree with the title of the thread "Prize Sniping" as a term should probably be done away with. But changing what we call it isn't going to change my feelings about it, which is that it's unnecessary. Does my opinion make sense? No, not at all. If you spend the time, effort and money to travel to multiple tournaments AND WIN those tournaments, you absolutely deserve your winnings and should not be made to feel ashamed for them (I'm sorry you passed a prize down out of guilt BergerFett, that's a feeling I'm all too familiar with.), but I am probably not going to like what you did it. You can argue to me why it's valid, and helpful, and noble and every reason under the sun, and you may even be right...

...but you're not going to change my feelings on it. Because you feel what you feel, even when it's wrong. Instead of bashing your head against an internet brick wall trying to change that with condescending terms like entitled and spoiled...I don't even know how to finish that sentence. Maybe just don't.

Hmm, I'm of the opinion that when the term is used as a pejorative, then it's indicative of an underlying problem. Whose fault and issue it is, may not be immediately apparent.

Long version:

TL;DR summery: don't be a jerk. It's the attitude of the individual gamer on both sides that toxifies or detoxifies the gaming community.

Gotta' hand it to OP. I can still smell the gasoline from this casually tossed fire bomb.

I thought it was more of propane and hydrogen fire