Last game I played someone tried to use prokets on a-wing's against me, I frustrated him by blocking and even though he eventually got two out of three off he only killed one ship with two proket attacks.
In the end my ships with three attacks far out performed his a-wing's.
Ordnance is unreliable and your better off with a three attack primary ships.
I've had a decimator take three prokets to the side and not blink then blow a ship away with a range one shot.
Glitter crack homing missiles do not have a reliability issue. I keep hearing the same posturing for old squad archetypes premised on they work because "I'm" better than my opponent.
I guess time will tell. However, it sounds like most people don't think ordinance works, and does that mean they have not tested it?
Edited by JisforjetsGlitter crack homing missiles do not have a reliability issue. I keep hearing the same posturing for old squad archetypes premised on they work because "I'm" better than my opponent.
I guess time will tell. However, it sounds like most people don't think ordinance works, and does that mean they have not tested it?
It's the opposite we've tried it come here to find advice and found everyone else has the exact same issues.
Torps and missiles are terrible on most ships, they do nothing a cannon can't and you can use cannons multiple times.
The odd pilot like red line can make them work but as a rule just don't bother there are better ways to spend squad points.
Ordnance is blitheringly tough against a competent opponent. Versus a noob, relatively easy.
I don't know, Prockets can be worthwhile on Jake. Would he prefer a Mangler cannon if he could? Well, sure. But I've never seen a cannon on a ship with that kind of action economy, and I can't imagine this is coincidental.
And for those grumbling about them on ATC Advanced, realise that their purpose there is to let a ship get a decent shot off at a target of opportunity they *haven't* got the Target Lock on; throwing a 5-die salvo at a TIE fighter while keeping your target lock on Soontir can be worthwhile in itself.
Where the alpha-striking meta went, though, is that alpha-striking is a trump against jousting; jousting has proven less popular of late, and so alpha-striking (which was never terribly popular to start with) has fallen by the wayside too.
Homing explicitly denies the opponent the use of an evade token. Nothing else does that. I don't think I have mentioned Jonus. That's like me saying where is Turr, he is such a good arc dodger. Ordinance was unreliable, and terrible in efficieny. Now that ordinance can remove a ship that would be around for multiple rounds it has become quite powerful.
Edited by JisforjetsSurprisingly, one of the most cost efficient options for an Alpha list is Crackshot, which is an Elite Talent.
That adds +1 damage to your die roll if your opponent managed to cancel any of your actual shot
Without requiring you to be at a specific range, or have a specific action-token available.
Or even having a Torpedo or Missile slot.
Notably, +1 damage is about what you get out of most ordnance, as you don't typically have the ability to modify the increased dice.
The upgrade doesn't truly cost 1 point, however, as you need to upgrade Pilot Skill until you have an Elite Talent slot, and the lack of target-lock requirement means that is more burdensome than you'd think.
Still, you're unlikely to spend more than 4 points for the upgrade, as you'll typically be spamming the generics that can take it.
I don't think we'll ever see an ''Alpha Strike'' meta. At least not from ordnance.
It's not because they are not good, because I think you can now build a team around them that will be reliable. N'dru with Glimmerstim and Cluster Missiles or Homing Missiles, Redline with FCS and Cluster Missiles, Jonus with Bombers, Jake with a Proton Rocket, Kavil with deadeye R4 and Proton Torpedoes.... if you take the time to think about it and put your heart to it, you can make them work and be a real threat that your opponent will have to take into consideration.
But that's the thing, and why a lot of people prefer to just dismiss them. You can't just take a missile and be sure it will work. You need to build your unit/team to make it work. You need to plan your move and play to make it work. You need to set them up first.... And I think that's just too much effort for some players; they prefer to take a unit/team that don't need any setting, just point, shoot and repeat. No need for target lock or finding a second way to modify your roll. Also, I think some of the old guard are just still stuck in the mindset from the early days that ordnance are not worth it.
From my part, I like to use them from time to time. I love to make them work, because when they do, they are so much rewarding.... and the face of your opponent, priceless. They can be a great addition to your team. But I don't see them dominating the game. And I hope they won't... ever. They are just at the right spot (maybe still a little boost needed): They can be deadly in the right hand, but are not a no brainer that will automatically pay if you take them. You take them for a reason, to serve a purpose. You need to be clever.
I think you nailed it Red Castle. I will take it one step further. If ordinance gets any better it might unfun a lot of games.
Another problem I think we're seeing is that even though missiles and torps are vastly better than where they started, so are most basic 3 dice attacks at this point. There are plenty of ways to "garuntee" 2-3 damage out of a primary rather than hope for 3-4 damage from an expensive expendable that also takes set up.
As primary attacks continue to get better, ordnance based attacks continue to seem like worse options.
The thing about the alpha strike meta or basically any upgrade card with a discard mechanic is that the discarded card has to be powerful enough to reliably remove a ship or at least damage a large ship to the point where it is at half HP. As of now the only list capable of doing such a thing is a swarm type list (5+ ships), and at that number of attacks those few extra dice you get from missiles or torpedoes doesn't really justify the points you spent, nor sacrificing a target lock for dice modification that make sure your first attack hits and hits hard.
Currently the torpedo missile and bombs does not have enough punch to do that. They can only remove the lowest of HP ships unless there is an amazing roll with critical effects that remove a Y-wing in one shot.
Sad really, the wave that was supposed to give power to bombers and ships that use missiles and torpedoes really only put turret slotted ships into the top of the meta. As for bombers and the new heavy bombers along with the upgrade slots for torpedoes, missiles, and bombs don't really have any real effect. The conner net has the best control options but not too many control list out. It still takes 2 ships to fully control one opposing ships. Maybe the tractor beam will change all of that.
Another problem I think we're seeing is that even though missiles and torps are vastly better than where they started, so are most basic 3 dice attacks at this point. There are plenty of ways to "garuntee" 2-3 damage out of a primary rather than hope for 3-4 damage from an expensive expendable that also takes set up.
As primary attacks continue to get better, ordnance based attacks continue to seem like worse options.
It is not just the primary attacks but the reoccurring attacks. HLC was the most used cannon for good reasons, Not only did it added attack dice, but it also removed bonus green dice at range 3, all with not sacrificing dice modifying actions. I often compared HLC to 2 proton torpedoes (now proton torpedoes w/ EM) because of the similarities over 2 attacks and with the same point cost. The conclusion is that even with the reduction of 1 point thanks to EM, HLC is still better as it has a target lock reroll option. This is comparing 4 dice attack with a TL vs a 4 dice attack with essentially a focus that is forced into calculating.
Now in comparasion against TLT, a 4 dice attack is better than the doubled non ionizing attack, but TLT can shoot out of arc, all you need is range 2-3. With EM+proton torpedoes once an Arc Dodger runs out of Arc, you are screwed and that target lock is worthless to you for the purposes of firing torpedo (or missile) weapons.
Redline is legit as can be for an alpha strike
I don't think we'll ever see an ''Alpha Strike'' meta. At least not from ordnance.
It's not because they are not good, because I think you can now build a team around them that will be reliable. N'dru with Glimmerstim and Cluster Missiles or Homing Missiles, Redline with FCS and Cluster Missiles, Jonus with Bombers, Jake with a Proton Rocket, Kavil with deadeye R4 and Proton Torpedoes.... if you take the time to think about it and put your heart to it, you can make them work and be a real threat that your opponent will have to take into consideration.
But that's the thing, and why a lot of people prefer to just dismiss them. You can't just take a missile and be sure it will work. You need to build your unit/team to make it work. You need to plan your move and play to make it work. You need to set them up first.... And I think that's just too much effort for some players; they prefer to take a unit/team that don't need any setting, just point, shoot and repeat. No need for target lock or finding a second way to modify your roll. Also, I think some of the old guard are just still stuck in the mindset from the early days that ordnance are not worth it.
From my part, I like to use them from time to time. I love to make them work, because when they do, they are so much rewarding.... and the face of your opponent, priceless. They can be a great addition to your team. But I don't see them dominating the game. And I hope they won't... ever. They are just at the right spot (maybe still a little boost needed): They can be deadly in the right hand, but are not a no brainer that will automatically pay if you take them. You take them for a reason, to serve a purpose. You need to be clever.
Or you just realize you're paying a bunch of points for a single 4-die or 5-die attack when there are cheaper ways to put out that level of damage. If you're concerned about, say, Soontir, let's say you shoot him with N'Dru with Glitterstim up with a Homing missile- and this is a big assumption because Fel is higher PS and can avoid you or force N'Dru to come toward other friends, taking away his bonuses. You're actually not that likely to kill him- you have a good chance of getting one through, but with his tokens up you're probably not killing him, then you just spent more than 10 points for that shot.
Most missiles are just throwing good points at bad. Prockets can make sense on Jake, who needs the firepower help and has supreme action economy anyway, but Redline has the problem that the more you put on him the worse he is because Redline is still easy to kill. Very easy. Same problem for Jonus and bombers.
I do think FFG is trying to be careful about creating the alpha strike meta.
Another problem I think we're seeing is that even though missiles and torps are vastly better than where they started, so are most basic 3 dice attacks at this point. There are plenty of ways to "garuntee" 2-3 damage out of a primary rather than hope for 3-4 damage from an expensive expendable that also takes set up.
As primary attacks continue to get better, ordnance based attacks continue to seem like worse options.
And so is defense. There is more and more high agility ship and tank in the game. Ordnance are not meant (at least from my opinion) to win you games, they are meant to give you an early lead, an edge. They are meant to overcome a weakness of your unit/team.
I'll take Kavil as an example. I decide to equip him with R4+Blaster turret. That's 30 pts, thanks to his ability, he attack at 4 dice out of sight at range 1-2. But while in sight, he drop to 3 dice range 1-2 and 2 range 3. Giving him deadeye and proton torpedoes suddenly allow him to attack once (twice if you also take extra munition) at 4 dice+1 focus to crit while at range 2-3, also denying range bonus at range 3. Suddenly, there is not many place to hide from him, and that's thanks to the 5 points I spent on the torpedo+deadeye. Without the turret, the opponent would just try to joust with him and destroy him before he can use his turret, now he can't, or he'll pay for it. That 5 points is, from my point of view, worth it.
But like I said before, if you take ordnance just for the sake of taking ordnance, you will probably fare better with just your primary weapon.
I don't think we'll ever see an ''Alpha Strike'' meta. At least not from ordnance.
It's not because they are not good, because I think you can now build a team around them that will be reliable. N'dru with Glimmerstim and Cluster Missiles or Homing Missiles, Redline with FCS and Cluster Missiles, Jonus with Bombers, Jake with a Proton Rocket, Kavil with deadeye R4 and Proton Torpedoes.... if you take the time to think about it and put your heart to it, you can make them work and be a real threat that your opponent will have to take into consideration.
But that's the thing, and why a lot of people prefer to just dismiss them. You can't just take a missile and be sure it will work. You need to build your unit/team to make it work. You need to plan your move and play to make it work. You need to set them up first.... And I think that's just too much effort for some players; they prefer to take a unit/team that don't need any setting, just point, shoot and repeat. No need for target lock or finding a second way to modify your roll. Also, I think some of the old guard are just still stuck in the mindset from the early days that ordnance are not worth it.
From my part, I like to use them from time to time. I love to make them work, because when they do, they are so much rewarding.... and the face of your opponent, priceless. They can be a great addition to your team. But I don't see them dominating the game. And I hope they won't... ever. They are just at the right spot (maybe still a little boost needed): They can be deadly in the right hand, but are not a no brainer that will automatically pay if you take them. You take them for a reason, to serve a purpose. You need to be clever.
Or you just realize you're paying a bunch of points for a single 4-die or 5-die attack when there are cheaper ways to put out that level of damage. If you're concerned about, say, Soontir, let's say you shoot him with N'Dru with Glitterstim up with a Homing missile- and this is a big assumption because Fel is higher PS and can avoid you or force N'Dru to come toward other friends, taking away his bonuses. You're actually not that likely to kill him- you have a good chance of getting one through, but with his tokens up you're probably not killing him, then you just spent more than 10 points for that shot.
With the Glimmerstim+Homing Missiles (worth 7 points by the way), your ultimate goal is not to kill Fel, but to leverage the field. You might not kill him (5dice +F+TL Vs 4 dice +F should net you 2 damage on average), but you will strip him from his **** Stealth device, and suddenly your primary weapon stand a chance. The Glimmerstim+Homing Missiles can also strip a IG from his shield, suddenly making him vulnerable to crit, half value (so worth the 25pts you paid for N'Dru with this setup) and playing more carefully since he's more vulnerable. Again, not destroying the high value unit outright, but giving you an early edge in the game. A tool to an end.
Yeah - if you make it too strong, the games end in 5 minutes - that's no fun.
Some alpha strike I've been having some success with:
3 x Sigma Squadron Pilot [FCS, RecSpec, SPA]
Evade, Focus, Focus makes you pretty durable.
Some alpha strike I've been having some success with:
3 x Sigma Squadron Pilot [FCS, RecSpec, SPA]
Evade, Focus, Focus makes you pretty durable.
Not technically an alpha strike list, since your damage is consistent, not delivered in a spike. It is a fun list, though.
One thing that I forgot to add.
It is my opinion that players that think that ordnance should be able to reliably destroy a 30+pts ship or cripple (half hit points) a 50-60pts ship might be expecting too much from a 3-5 pts upgrade. Look at them like you would an initiative bet and maybe you'll see that they actually have their place in this game and can be well worth it.
You don't put 7+ points into an initiative bid, though. Those points can get you a lot more than a single extra damage or so.
You don't put 7+ points into an initiative bid, though. Those points can get you a lot more than a single extra damage or so.
It was a figure of speach, another place where players might take points away from their list to get an edge. You might pay more for the ordnance, but at least you'll get the benefit every game. An initiative bet with Whisper might actually serve no purpose if your opponent have no PS9 pilots. And by the way, there is cheaper way to use ordnance than 7 points. Funny how you seem to like to exagerate with your earlier 10pts+ and now 7+points.
When you build a list, you are building a whole. The ordnance can play a role in your strategy. They can have a purpose and I never regreted taking them, because I take them for a specific reason. You might personally see no value in them, but there actually is. But it's okay, there is nothing forcing you to take them anyway.
I said 10 points before because you're pretty much taking N'dru for the missile and he's extra points right there. 7 points is a homing missile and glitterstim, 6 is a cluster with the same. I don't think i'm exaggerating that much.
N'Dru is pretty great just by himself so no, you don't take N'Dru just for the missiles, they are a complement to him; 6-7 is 7-pts, not 7+pts; there are other cheaper way to make ordnance work.
So yeah, I think that saying 10+pts and then 7+pts is exagerating to try to prove a point.
He is but the more points you put into him the less efficient he is- he's still in a z95 and has no repositioning nor does he out ps the true aces.
I don't think we'll ever see an ''Alpha Strike'' meta. At least not from ordnance.
It's not because they are not good, because I think you can now build a team around them that will be reliable. N'dru with Glimmerstim and Cluster Missiles or Homing Missiles, Redline with FCS and Cluster Missiles, Jonus with Bombers, Jake with a Proton Rocket, Kavil with deadeye R4 and Proton Torpedoes.... if you take the time to think about it and put your heart to it, you can make them work and be a real threat that your opponent will have to take into consideration.
But that's the thing, and why a lot of people prefer to just dismiss them. You can't just take a missile and be sure it will work. You need to build your unit/team to make it work. You need to plan your move and play to make it work. You need to set them up first.... And I think that's just too much effort for some players; they prefer to take a unit/team that don't need any setting, just point, shoot and repeat. No need for target lock or finding a second way to modify your roll. Also, I think some of the old guard are just still stuck in the mindset from the early days that ordnance are not worth it.
From my part, I like to use them from time to time. I love to make them work, because when they do, they are so much rewarding.... and the face of your opponent, priceless. They can be a great addition to your team. But I don't see them dominating the game. And I hope they won't... ever. They are just at the right spot (maybe still a little boost needed): They can be deadly in the right hand, but are not a no brainer that will automatically pay if you take them. You take them for a reason, to serve a purpose. You need to be clever.
This is the reason why I like my 4 Tie Bomber list. It's a challenge and very rewarding when you get it right. I've made at least one local ace hate/fear Tie Bombers. When I ran my list in 2015 Store Champs, few had ever played against them before and had no idea what to do. It won't be that easy from now on, though.
For those worried about low PS ships getting TL, there are ways to get it. Just don't fly straight in to die. Learn the Rule of 11.
I think Alpha Strike was also a good thing when 2 ship builds were the meta to beat. It's a lot easier to get one fat ship in your scopes and blast away.
Sensor Jammers can ruin ordnance. It's more common these days.
If soontir is rolling 4 dice against you, you did something wrong.
Latts razzi, weapons engineer and k4 say hello. Nothing but green maneuvers, dropping evade dice like flies.
NEVER ever fire cluster missiles at soontir. That's a bad idea. You want homing missiles. 5 dice, no evade token, and minus one evade from latts. Crackshot removes palpatine from the equation. That's a dead soontir. Talonbane with engine and crackshot can replicate the same thing if he can get to range one.
It's so easy. I've yet to not get soontir with the homing missile. I've seen this list win 3 consecutive games in less than 15 minutes.
Yes...this is a monstrosity.
Ive been working a 4 ship Alpha list with Ndru and Cobra. This list is the very essence of simplicity and absolutly wasted my opponent even after having never played it before.
Ndru died but not before he got his 5 damage in.
Devestating.