I feel that DH2e is an improvement over DH1e, it's more flexible and more balanced, imo. Do you feel that Rouge Trader should get a 2e too? What would you want in it? (I know this the DH2e page not the RT page) Should RT just be a source book for DH2e?

As the core rulebook is written, I don't think a RT styled source book would do well. DH2e isn't the oh-so-desired "general 40k RPG system"; it is written clearly for an Inquisition themed game perspective (e.g. systems like subtlety, certain investigation related talents, particular mechanics of the Influence system, the Inquisitor elite advance). Arguably the character creation system would need some constraints for a RT themed game (a RT from an Feral World?).

Certainly the core rules and bulk of the talents are portable; if a RT themed game was done in DH2e it really might as well be using the same xp scale (and arguably the characteristics could even be in the same range). But I do think a new core rulebook would be needed. Too many new systems, too much a need for a new (and contained) char-gen system.

As far as to the question of if one would be in the works or not based on the success of DH2e... I have no clue.

Personally I feel that we failed the DH2eB1 rules, and in return we received a failed DH2e ruleset. What I do know is this - that while the SW RPG line has been out for a fraction of the lifespan of the 40k RPG line, the rate of releases for SW far outstrip what we've seen for 40k (as well as rate of community activity at the moment). As an anecdote, the table experience of me and my players has been exceptionally greater for the star wars systems than it has been for DH (not sure what it is, I think my players just hate the post DH1e no currency system; they always seem too timid to make influence checks, and when they do they often fail). Simply put, DH2e, while I love the setting, has issues. I'd really almost not want to see a RT 2nd edition until the problems with DH2e are fixed (and its going to pretty much require a 3rd edition and the community agreeing to give up the ability to use old source books).

The only real issues I see with DH2 is that it was rushed out of the door, because they had to do stuff in half the amount of time. The other half being the time they put into DH2eB1.

I hope they can mitigate some of those problems in further supplements.

And FYI, I'm currently in a Star Wars: AOR campaign. While it's a fun system with its narrative dice aspect, I think the main selling point is the theme itself. 40k is way more of a niche thing than the Star Wars universe.

Edit: The main reason why this isn't a DH2 campaign is exactly because of the theme. Knowing how to roleplay characters properly a 40k themed game requires way more knowledge of the setting. Also, for some people, 40k is just too grimdark while star wars is generally more accessible for everybody. If you like sci-fi, you'll like Star Wars, but not necessary a 40k game.

If I were to ask around on random places if people know (or even heard of) Star Wars, I bet I'll get a lot more people saying yes than when I were to ask if they know Warhammer40k.

Also not a huge fan of the no currency system, but I have implemented a few house rules to make it a more playable system, and I am starting to come around to it. I personally think a point based requisition system would have been better, "your influence is 33 so you get 330 points to spend on equipment". I put in a house rule that they get to do their influence bonus in equipment rolls at the beginning of session (depending what they are doing) or where an appropriate pause is in the game. Otherwise they have to take out in game time for a roll. Other than that I haven't really found a huge flaw in the system.

I could see a feral world RT character.

I'd like to see both RT and DW get 2nd Editions, to bring the whole line up to a consistent standard.

Personally I feel that we failed the DH2eB1 rules, and in return we received a failed DH2e ruleset.

How so? By not giving it rubber-stamp approval during the open beta testing? Beta1 was no great shakes- just some changes (some good, some bad) that didn't address the core structural problems with the WH40KRP system (lack of depth to the percentile system which causes tests to go from 'rarely succeed' to 'rarely fail' with little room in between; combat is far too slow; psychic powers are structured as immutable D&D -style 'spells'; the system doesn't reward 'characterful' choices, resulting in colorless 'power gaming' being the 'right' choice in most situations; etc). If FFG isn't going to fix those problems, then 'backwards compatibility' is more important to me than a handful of semi-random changes...

I'd like to see both RT and DW get 2nd Editions, to bring the whole line up to a consistent standard.

Personally I feel that we failed the DH2eB1 rules, and in return we received a failed DH2e ruleset.

How so? By not giving it rubber-stamp approval during the open beta testing? Beta1 was no great shakes- just some changes (some good, some bad) that didn't address the core structural problems with the WH40KRP system (lack of depth to the percentile system which causes tests to go from 'rarely succeed' to 'rarely fail' with little room in between; combat is far too slow; psychic powers are structured as immutable D&D -style 'spells'; the system doesn't reward 'characterful' choices, resulting in colorless 'power gaming' being the 'right' choice in most situations; etc). If FFG isn't going to fix those problems, then 'backwards compatibility' is more important to me than a handful of semi-random changes...

As in that the community was so hostile to it that the baby was tossed out with the bathwater. It had some interesting ideas, some interesting changes. Sure, by all means, it had problems, on its own it really wouldn't have worked. But rather than try to proceed and arrive at a new and interesting ruleset, it retreated, and went back to the old ruleset, with its old problems. Its that the community gave it the rubber-stamp of disapproval rather than give it a shot and try to work within the idea and see if the broader issues could still be addressed.

I'm saying that we should of pushed them to go forward and correct the issues, rather than encourage them to go back and have backwards compatibility.

Yes, yes, I know, they likely never would of done anything like that. But it just felt that the community capitulated too quickly on the matter (or really, from what I saw, feedback on the beta rules seemed to die off pretty quick, and it turned into an echo chamber of just a few people making comments). Sure, I should of tried to do more as well, but unfortunately my gaming group wasn't in a place at the time to help test the rules.

I would put everything in DH2.

Make a Rogue Trader handbook,, including the elite advance rogue trader and some other elite advance/roles that fits. Same for a DeathWatch Handbook; to be able to play Deathwatch space marines in games of deathwatch (or, for those that like it, in regular games).

Then you get out either many bestiaries, or a very interesting bestiary with three sections: Creatures for investigations (DH themed), creatures for big fights (DW themed), and explorations/unknown creatures (RT themed)).

Those of RT and DH would be more compatible, while those of DW are supposed to be a little more powerfull (greater daemons, super xenos intel, etc.) but would still fit in some epic DH games.

I would prefer it like that.

A tome for greater battle, to put ways to make combat faster and deadlier, etc.

The reasons for why a single rulebook with gameline-specific splats won't work have been debated a million times. There would have to be a lot of rewriting to make playing Space Marines a balanced choice versus a hive scummer or Imperial Guardsman. Probably best not to get into that one again, because it crops up like once a month and is thus pretty stale.

I agree with both Adeptus-B and KommissarK - the beta was a flop on FFG's part for not fixing what was actually broken, and a failure on the community's part for falling into grognardism. There are many parts of this system that need fixing, and the whole line could do without the copy/pasting that seems to create many issues. There just seems to be a general apathy when it comes to righting the errors made in publishing, and an almost haphazard method of designing mechanics meant to fit together.

Just look at what happened to Only War.

So hang me out to dry here.

I love the idea of RT, but as a game it isn't great. The ship battles are near impossible to manage from a GM perspective. The characters have a million abilities, special rules, and area effects. The whole thing is a nightmare.

Dark Heresy is ok at its level. It's a little overly complex though for an RPG.

If Rogue Trader comes back it should come back as something else. Something totally different and wonderful. Make it as simple as Dark Heresy. Make the ship combat fast, so you can knock out turns. Figure out a better way to do money than PF.

I would put everything in DH2.

Make a Rogue Trader handbook,, including the elite advance rogue trader and some other elite advance/roles that fits. Same for a DeathWatch Handbook; to be able to play Deathwatch space marines in games of deathwatch (or, for those that like it, in regular games).

Then you get out either many bestiaries, or a very interesting bestiary with three sections: Creatures for investigations (DH themed), creatures for big fights (DW themed), and explorations/unknown creatures (RT themed)).

Those of RT and DH would be more compatible, while those of DW are supposed to be a little more powerfull (greater daemons, super xenos intel, etc.) but would still fit in some epic DH games.

I would prefer it like that.

A tome for greater battle, to put ways to make combat faster and deadlier, etc.

Yep I would vote for this too. There needs to be entire chapters devoted to how to RP as a RT and what kind of things and missions are expected to occur. One problem I ran into was "Ok you're super powerful, have a massive ship, 10,000 crewmen...now what the hell is going to motivate you to do anything at all?" What is the normal day of a RT captain? What kinds are there? Smugglers, pirates, admirals, scavengers. Whats in running a space ship? Who would he interact with and get missions from? And that's just help for the GM, a rework of the combat mechanics and simplification of gear and talents would also be good. Ship combat as well. The power levels are so high its seen in the same light as Deathwatch as in, just a murder hobo lark about. But there can be some interesting themes for a RT.

Yes, and the most OP characters (Jedi cough, cough) got their own line.

I wonder if it's possible to combine a full-fledged Jedi knight in a group with non-jedi (AoR or EotE) and still be balanced. Is the amount of XP required to be a Jedi Knight that much higher.

As long as the rules are similar, it should be possible. Worked in the movies as well, after all.

I've never tried that myself, but there are at least some who say it's balanced.

I think White-Wolf did a unification in the World of darkness setting and it worked out well(ish). And at least all the different subsystems are compatible and cross usable now.
They made one main book for a general stuff and generic rules (for example skills and combat) of the world, and then all the sub-themes (vampire, werewolf, mage, etc) got a separate core book with all their unique stuff (and after that of course dozens of expansions for each setting)
I think it could be implemented in WH40k well. You would have a generic book for the rules, skills, general gear, and the life of a common citizen of the imperium (which is where everyone in "real" life starts anyway (mostly)). Then you would have a separate core book for DW, RT, DH, BC; each, with additional info for generating new characters (or you could bring in your existing common citizen easily), theme descriptions, unique abilities, special rules (influence, infamy, subtlety, profit factor, whichever is applicable). And then they could still flood us with expansions for each theme, or generic ones as well (for example a book with more detailed descriptions of all the common worlds, and all the different aspects of them in the life of an inquisitor agent, an apostate, or a wealthy trader).

And then everything would be compatible and consistent (!) with everything.

I know, I know, I'll go back to dreaming...

I think the base game would have to come with a setting included, just so that you can start playing right away without need for any supplements. It could be as simple as a truncated version of Only War, where the game throws your freshly generated character into the meatgrinder of the Imperial Guard.

Then, future supplements allow for "alternate campaigns" where you apply the lessons learned from the core rulebook to working for the Inquisition, or a Rogue Trader, Space Marines, hive gangers, ...

But yeah, I think it's really much more a matter of intentional choice rather than feasability. A simple design decision. It's not like their current approach does not have any advantages of its own, after all (such as the power level/PC mortality being fine-tuned to the game's theme, i.e. whether you should seek out or avoid heroic combat), and a number of people like it that way. It just kind of sucks for the rest of us who would rather see a single setting represented in a single way, and maybe experience those crossovers that happen in the stories all the time.

I feel that the RT started the Rogue Traders off with too much power. You start off with a powerful empire or a powerful ship. I think it would have been a bit more fun to start out no empire and just a small ship. (see Han Solo).

Doable, but then it wouldn't be Rogue Trader.

Shouldn't be too hard to mod the game into a pirate or intra-system trader campaign, though. Maybe something where you can buy passage for your ship on special carrier vessels that act like warp taxis? Like with the difference between JumpShips and DropShips in Battletech.

I'd love to see all lines at least get the Aptitude system and same cost tables as well as the same way of character creation.

I can work with OW and DH2 but if I wanted to get a Throne Agent or Inquisitor into RT oder DW I'd be screwed because XP scale differs (not so much from DH2 to RT, but BW was completely different cost) and Character Creation is completely different which makes it hard to balance.

I did not compare severel characters from both lines yet but I guess OW Characters are slightly more powerful, but that could easily be fixed by granting a few hundred additional XP to the DH2 guys.

For RT you could simply use the Homeworld-Background-Role Table from DH2 since they are all individuals while DW should get the Regiment(read:Chapter)+Role System from OW as long as someone manages to combine them.

Also it'd be great to have a comparison of XP like it was tried (unsuccessful) on the previous lines with RT Starters as powerful as a 3k DH2 Agent and an Astartes as strong as a ~8k Throne Agent.

But the most important thing is to get requisition systems combinable because if I own all the books from all the lines I want to use all the gear, no matter what line I play.

I was thinking more a warp capable ship, but at the start. Basically building your trade empire from scratch. Just got your rit or from an old fallen family with its last ship. A rogue trader at the beginning of his career instead of starting in the middle.

The reasons for why a single rulebook with gameline-specific splats won't work have been debated a million times. There would have to be a lot of rewriting to make playing Space Marines a balanced choice versus a hive scummer or Imperial Guardsman. Probably best not to get into that one again, because it crops up like once a month and is thus pretty stale.

That's why I did say that you needed extension specialised in each subspecialisation. It will work if dev want it to work. And who spoke of balancing a space Marine against a Hive scummer? Not I, at least. I spoke of having the rules to fit the same pattern, and you can play many things and, like it was done in the past, you include rules/counsels to introduce Space Marines in High Level games if there are people interested in that.

About the fact this is being stale; don't participate in a topic that pretty much ask about how to do it in the future, while this can be a possibility.

I was thinking more a warp capable ship, but at the start. Basically building your trade empire from scratch. Just got your rit or from an old fallen family with its last ship. A rogue trader at the beginning of his career instead of starting in the middle.

Just because the rule book says by default you have 90 SP+PF total, you can always house rule / agree in your group, that you'll start with less SP+PF. You could start with 30SP, 30PF, (or less) which is a small ship, small dynasty.

Also there are several suggestions in one of the supplement books for how to handle the players if the are not actually the warrant holders, or not actual Rogue Traders yet. For example they work for THE Rouge Trader, who has them assigned to a small ship or a just to run one system. They can play small until they earn to be in the big league (and also The Warrant).

I'd love to see all lines at least get the Aptitude system and same cost tables as well as the same way of character creation.

I can work with OW and DH2 but if I wanted to get a Throne Agent or Inquisitor into RT oder DW I'd be screwed because XP scale differs (not so much from DH2 to RT, but BW was completely different cost) and Character Creation is completely different which makes it hard to balance.

I'd generally advise against mixing things from the different game lines. They've been written with their specific product in mind, and whilst you can take inspiration from the other books, I'd very much caution against just copying stuff, at least without giving it a good, long look.

If you do want to mix, what you could do is to "recreate" the other characters using the rules from the system you are actually going to play with, though! This is obviously easier for RT (where I'd recommend simply taking an equivalent career, such as Guardsman > Arch-Militant, Cleric > Missionary, etc), but in DW you'd have to go with some pretty hefty houseruling anyways if you don't want to reduce the other characters to the role of extras/sidekicks.

Also there are several suggestions in one of the supplement books for how to handle the players if the are not actually the warrant holders, or not actual Rogue Traders yet. For example they work for THE Rouge Trader, who has them assigned to a small ship or a just to run one system. They can play small until they earn to be in the big league (and also The Warrant).

Any chance that you recall which supplement? Because that's exactly what I'd want to do if I ran an RT campaign.

Ive toyed with / am toying with the idea of figuring out how to make a game based on the 4 core books a "independent operator" approach to campaigning in 40k...

Think Star Wars - you are your own man until or unless you form alliances or are forced to do so...

Same vein as the classic adventurer type.

I would call this "Vagabond Gothic"

Want to be a Bounty Hunetr who can eventually bring it to an Astartes - Id have a "high level" option for that

Want to be just a Scoundrel - fine

Want to be a secret sorcerer - fine

Point is this "perspective" is the one enjoyed by many game systems and sci fi settings

The downside like D&D is focus of course - the four Core books at least ground players with purpose of one sort or another

Just Saying / Shared

Vagabond Gothic - you heard it here first!

Stay GAMING

Morbid