How works none-returns with crows of core?

Enemies goes to discard pile or return to encounter deck?

Text on cards in the victory display is still active. So I think after the crows move to the victory display they would get shuffled into the deck.

Matchup!!

VERSUS

Now, Forced effects are essentially the encounter deck's version of a Response, and if they share a trigger with a player Response, the Forced effect goes first:

"(1.09) Forced Responses Forced responses resolve immediately when their specified prerequisite occurs, and before any response effects that also can be triggered off the same prerequisite"

So first we shuffle the Eastern Crows back into the encounter deck. At that point, if you are allowed to play None Return, you have to search through the encounter deck. But how do you know which copy of Eastern Crows is the right copy?! Based on that headache alone, I humbly suggest None Return cannot be played once an enemy has been shuffled into the encounter deck.

Since when is text in the victory display still active?

I taught that cards in the Victory display were out of play (that's why some cards have ''If in the Victory display, this card does blah, lah, blah...'' on them because of that.

Now, Forced effects are essentially the encounter deck's version of a Response, and if they share a trigger with a player Response, the Forced effect goes first:

"(1.09) Forced Responses Forced responses resolve immediately when their specified prerequisite occurs, and before any response effects that also can be triggered off the same prerequisite"

So first we shuffle the Eastern Crows back into the encounter deck. At that point, if you are allowed to play None Return, you have to search through the encounter deck. But how do you know which copy of Eastern Crows is the right copy?! Based on that headache alone, I humbly suggest None Return cannot be played once an enemy has been shuffled into the encounter deck.

There is a similar interaction with Burgle attempts. After you reveal the card, there is an action window in which the player could theoretically shuffle his deck with any number of cards (Will of the West, A Very Good Tale, etc.). Wasn't it ruled that if you shuffled your deck, then decided to use the action to take the card into your hand, you had to search your deck for it in order to do so?

Link to the ruling about Burgle attempts.

Since when is text in the victory display still active?

Well I was referring to these kinds of cards, because their text would be pointless if it weren't active in the victory display. But I guess what is really happening here is a case of the Golden Rule: Only the text following "When this card is in the victory display" is active when the card is in the victory display, not the other text. For example, the passive effect on the Empty Mug is not active when it is in the victory display.

That being said, GrandSpleen's answer using FAQ 1.09 is much better. I forgot about the ordering of Forced and Response.

On a similar note, how does the interaction work between Leave no Trace and Market Square? Does Leave no Trace have to be played after Market Square is explored but before it leaves play, or is this the same trigger (i.e. wait until the location leaves play so that it's immunity disappears).

Good point about that Burgle ruling--- now I'm wondering if None Return wouldn't let you search the encounter deck for that enemy after all.

As for Leave No Trace and Market Square, that should work fine-- the location has left play when you use Leave No Trace, so the immunity should be 'off.'

I have an uneasiness with any effect that targets a specific card that has been shuffled into a deck. You can't know for sure that it's the same card if there are several copies.

The burgle ruling sounds intriguing but it wasn't explicitly said that you can fish through your deck for a shuffled card. There was no written objection, but it feels odd.

What if you had revealed Will of the West in the bugle attempt, then played it off the top of your deck using Gandalf's ability. Now does the Lonely Mountain let you take back Will of the West? It was removed from the game!

If it was removed from the game, nothing but nothing can interact with it! If it's still in your deck, there's at least a certain logic to being able to pull it out again. But I agree, the burgle ruling left some to interpretation and we have the same problem here.

Once it gets shuffled into the deck you lose identifying information. If you agree that you can't get back WotW once it leaves the game then what happens under this scenario:

0. Two copies of WotW in deck

1. Reveal WotW for burgle

2. Play card like Eagles are Coming, shuffle deck.

3. Draw cards, pick up a copy of Will of the West

4. Play WotW, remove it from game

5. Attempt to use Lonely Mountain effect. Is the remaining copy in my deck the one that I saw during the burgle attempt, or is it the copy that was removed from the game?

I think that perhaps this whole discussion has gone in the wrong direction. The ruling in th burgled attempt said nothing of searching through a deck or whatever. The important line is "In order to use the ability on the Lonely Mountain you must take the revealed card into your hand." I would take that as saying, "If you can't do that then you can't use the ability on the Lonely Mountain." If the card is removed from the game or in your deck then you can't use the ability. And, furthermore, the crows are totally immune to None Return.

I propose we rename the card "Some Return".

I agree you shouldn't be able to fish it out of your deck after shuffling (in the case of Burgle attempts). I think that it causes way too many problems if you allow it as your example shows.

I suppose you could shuffle the WotW into your deck sideways...technically it is still revealed as nothing has unrevealed it yet...

I submitted a rules question to the developers about this, and I'll let you know when I hear back.

And the official reply:

"If you play None Return after destroying Eastern Crows, here’s what happens:

1. Trigger the Forced effect on Eastern Crows and shuffle it into the encounter deck
2. Trigger the Response on None Return, search the encounter deck for Eastern Crows and add it to the victory display
3. Shuffle the encounter deck
In reality, if you know that you are going to add Eastern Crows to the victory display, you should not have to shuffle it into the encounter deck first and then go find it. You can just place it in the victory display and save the hassle. If you take that short cut, be sure that you still shuffle the encounter deck since that can still have an effect on the game.
Cheers,
Caleb"

Seastan's got a fun little example about the headaches of selecting the 'correct' copy of a card like Will of the West (going back to the burgle/Lonely Mountain scenario). I guess you'll just have to put unique scuff marks on each card!

This does make a good case for searching through your deck for the card in the riddle case, but.... ugggh. It just messes with the philosophy of a card game for me. If it were a competitive situation where a judge was responsible for keeping someone accountable to the rules, you could come up with a situation where the judge can't know if a player has broken the rules or not. This shouldn't be possible.

Seastan's got a fun little example about the headaches of selecting the 'correct' copy of a card like Will of the West (going back to the burgle/Lonely Mountain scenario). I guess you'll just have to put unique scuff marks on each card!

Was this part a quote from Caleb too?

Hahah all the discussions going on today make me feel sorry for Caleb. I imagine he is looking forward to the weekend.

No that part was not a quote from Caleb Those quotation marks in my post are intentionally placed!

Disagree with this ruling. Once Eastern Crows reaches the encounter deck it is not in play. None Returns does not specify that it may interact with out-of-play cards.

Edit: Actually, I suppose that all responses based around cards leaving play must implicitly interact with out-of-play cards: None Returns typically will be targeting cards in the Discard Pile anyway. Disagreement withdrawn.

Crows leave play before being out of play, that's how I would play it, so Non return would work with the crows.

I played like Caleb answered before his answer. It is the better way and the most make sense.

Now, drawing Doors-Closed for next Eastern Crows copies!!! ^^. Here is an alternative Thalin killing machine in anduin nmare ^^

Let me rephrase it...

"If you play None Return after Sneak Attack and Gandalf get destoyed destroying Eastern Crows , here’s what happens:
1. Trigger the Forced effect on Eastern Crows Gandalf and shuffle it into the encounter deck put it in your discard pile
2. Trigger the Response on None Return Sneak Attack, search the encounter deck for Eastern Crows and add it to the victory display discard pile for Gandalf and put it into your hand
3. Shuffle the encounter deck "

So... why the diference? (because of course, you don't get Gandalf back)

I'm with all the others, here, I'll play it like you can't get Eastern Crows out because they have been moved to another place.

If you want, you can imagine closer exemple with some other cards than sneak gandalf... just think about Beorn ally ability whith Sneak Attack... it was already discussed and seems to be the exact same problem, but where we got another answer