Hi folks,

Wanted to pick your brains. Whatchya think; I have a character who's big into building his own droids with unique purposes. Do you think that this falls into Computers or Mechanics ... or is calling it either one just fine because it really is a blend of both? To me the rule book doesn't seem to address this so clearly.

What are your thoughts?

Well, repairing droid PCs is Mechanics. You can rule for Mechanics when constructing the droid, and Computers when programming it/building its brain.

I don't think it's a matter of "either one" but rather "definitely both" being essential. The greatest mechanic in the sector can fab a mechanically flawless chassis...if the thing isn't programmed properly, it's a fancy paperweight. Likewise, the greatest programmer in that same sector might be able to make the thing AI level smart, instantaneous reaction times, and perceptive enough to be banned from every sabacc table this side of the Perlemian...it won't be able to do a thing without a chassis that enables it to interact meaningfully with its environment.

Both skills are absolutely necessary for the final package.

This is an opportunity, though. If you have a character that only does one or the other, there can be entire adventures centered around pairing their skills with the "other half"...tracking down that outlaw tech out in the Centrality that's known for programming some of the best droids in the galaxy...but you don't contact him, he contacts you...all the way to having your expert programmer complete the most advanced droid brain he's ever done, and having to plan out a heist to steal a prototype droid chassis as Cybot Galactica ships it from it's secret R&D facility to a trade show in the core...

So Spanner, would building out a new droid take rolls in both categories?

Absolutely.

Honestly, I'm a far stingier GM than you...there's a reason that most people in the galaxy buy their droids from a company that specializes in it rather than making their own: developing droids takes a lot of time, skill, and money. There's R&D work, engineering, sourcing and processing materials, and obtaining the necessary fabrication equipment...all of which comes well before the Mechanics or Computers rolls. Even then, in any game of mine, there wouldn't be just one roll (or just two). Fabbing a chassis would require checks for the support structure, locomotion components, interface components, sensors, etc. Programming would probably require a similar number of checks to write and integrate all of the subroutines that control these various pieces, with some further work on top of that to make the thing actually any good at what it was designed to do. Then they'd need to figure out how to get the parts, or the metal and machinery to produce them (though their ship may have an adequate machine shop for this), then on to the wiring, componentry, and programming.

That being said, there's also a third option: cannibalizing. This immediately addresses much of the engineering (you know those legs can support a normal humanoid droid chassis, you don't have to run the numbers and prototype), as well as materials source and fabrication. At that point, it's much more a programming task. Likewise, you can cannibalize software too, transferring a copy of similarly-specced droid OS into a new host chassis...but keep in mind that this only goes so far. An R2 unit is programmed around the idea that they'll have tool appendages, scomp links, wheeled legs, and a swivel dome head at their disposal. Putting an R2 processor into a B1 battle droid, if it even accepts it, will give you a droid that can't walk, speaks in binary, and knows how to use appendages it doesn't have while being incapable of operating its hands.

I think the decision maker would be what the droid is intended to do, how likely there is to be something "close" on the market, and what the big difference would be.

So like, lets say I want to make a swarm of combat remotes to hover around me in battle and provide me with supporting fire. In ANH we see basically the reverse, a remote that hovers around the user and shots at him. Converting it to a combat remote that hovers around the user and shoots threats would be largely software in nature (as you're rewriting the targeting system to not only target something new, but include an IFF IA package so it shoots threats and not just everyone that isn't the user), but the mechanics would be pretty simple (removing the governor on the blasters to allow a kill setting, and maybe adding a range finder good to short range instead of engaged). So in this case I'd make it a Computers check.

On the other hand lets say I want to create a droid that's really specific. Lets say a tiny sabotage droid that infiltrates a facility on a timetable and detonates in a specific model of security panel. Software-wise it's pretty easy, as the droid will largely just run an insect simulation AI with a pathfinder program and it's self preservation mode set to "avoidance." Mechanics-wise it's trickier as you need to have the droid built on a subscale, with a shielded power source and microexplosive, a basic form that is similar to a common local insect and able to take a shape that will allow it to squeeze into the panels ID chip slot.... In this case, the mechanics are the hard part....so Mechanics check.

Personally I liked the approach Beyond the Rim took with offering Cybernetics as a Custom Skill that combined Mechanics and Medicine.

Always felt Droid Engineering and Vehicle/Starship Engineering should similarly be a more advanced subset of basic skills for players looking to build their own droids/speeders/starships

If it's a particularly important Droid, a pseudo pet, then Knowledge Education, Cool, Mechanics and Computers all play a part. Finding parts will require multiple social checks and even streetwise or underworld. It's an entire story arc that could play out over 2 or 3 sessions.

But if it's a simple modify some parts, make some adapters, quick re-program, for a low level basic mouse droid, them mechanics or computer is fine

If it's a particularly important Droid, a pseudo pet, then Knowledge Education, Cool, Mechanics and Computers all play a part. Finding parts will require multiple social checks and even streetwise or underworld. It's an entire story arc that could play out over 2 or 3 sessions.

But if it's a simple modify some parts, make some adapters, quick re-program, for a low level basic mouse droid, them mechanics or computer is fine

How would Cool come into play?

Ever hit your thumb with a hammer

For droid construction-

Software = Computer

Hardware = Mechanics

Adding Borg = Medicine

Overall Design = Education

Doing something as complex as building a droid from scratch isn't going to be done with just one simple skill roll.

I didn't like adding Cybernetics as a Medicine + Mechanics skill myself. It mucked with the careers (adding a new skill) and was adding detail to what is a very broad skill system. For example, there is an Engineer (Scientist) that doesn't have Cybernetics in it's Career skills.

Lots to add if you start adding specific fields of study like Cybernetics. Engineering? Chemistry? Biogenetics?

What I wish would have been added from the get-go are some Talents that open up advanced levels of technical skills. I'm hoping a future technician's sourcebook will have a good, smooth, solution. Could it be handled with new Signature abilities?

I really like the idea of Education being and overlap to the droid construction. I can see it being a whole series of roles, even possibly setting up boost or setback dice headed into roles for Computers or Mechanics on the droid construction rolls. I think that adds a very real component of the research behind the programming or construction. Great idea

As stated here, just adding my 2 cents to the pile, I would judge it takes multiple skills checks.

Building takes time, so for the first few days building the chassis and modules, mechanics check (or more then 1). Programming, which includes writing the program and implementing it, Computers... and so on.

I'm interested in where this goes as my EotE Engineer may end up going this route if the party finds themselves with a ship larger than they can comfortably crew. Building droids to pick up the slack would be one preferred option for them and having a decent idea of how to do so before it comes up will help make it smooth.

Though I'm also wondering how much the droid programming aspect could play into ship integrated AI's. If you basically build (or scavenge) a droid brain and plug it into a part of the ship (one of the turrets for instance) could you instead of building a normal frame, just install the automation hardware it would need to be a dedicated turret droid, and develop software for the same? I can't imagine the hardware aspect of that would be terribly difficult (compared to a full droid) as the components would already exist in some form. The Falcon had turret controls not only in its cockpit but in its engineering consoles too, so the actuators and such at the turret already exist. Just program the droid brain to be able to interact with them, and to be able to follow commands, judge priority targets, etc. In theory do the same concept for a gunnery control droid, has access to the ship's sensors and such and does the thinking, then sends targeting commands to the gun droids, that way you aren't spending resources programming X number of intelligent guns and rather 1 brain to tell X guns what to do.

I think the question then is, would the gunners still have physical stats? Generally Agility would determine how quickly you can bring a gun to bare and how accurately, but what if you are the gun? Can you not bring yourself to bare at the maximum speed the gun is capable of? Would the gunnery skill just be based off a mental stat instead in this case? The ability to perform rangefinding and such in split seconds perhaps? Sort of like pointing your arm, you're perfectly capable of pointing, but do you know where to point?
Alternatively, would Agility become a mental stat? Can you program agility rather than build it? Program the software efficiently enough to take full advantage of the hardware's innate agility?

Meanwhile the living crew who have other things to do have an automated defense system doing the heavy lifting as they fly, repair, repel boarders, etc. Not terribly different than a hired gun crew doing the same except they don't need pay, food, or bunks and can continue to function if the nearby hull section were vented into space due to damage. Would it be susceptible to electronic warfare? Of course, there's always a tradeoff. Also yes, this sounds suspiciously like the CIS, it is a coincidence. Their droids had very poor skills in... everything.

I think I just asked a bunch of questions rather than giving an opinion on anything... but hopefully they'll be helpful questions that can expand the discussion? I'm going to sleep now~

Julianne, cool thoughts. These are capertainly ones that get the brain going ... Or where we let our brain go when on the edge of sleep; possibly some of our finest thoughts!

In thing your points all hedge on that question of what is and will be really be possible. Certainly what we are able to see computers and mechanics do today certainly show amazing possibilities for the next twenty years. So why then on Star Wars do we see light speed ships which can navigate galaxies of moving objects, thinking droids, and yet M. Falcon guns which require a gunner operating WWII style anti-aircraft turrets? I'm not sure about others on this forum but I think the answer is simple; Star Wars is a movie. Some aspects which would make more technical sense are abandoned because Lucas wanted something far more visually appealing. Of course an integrated Ai component linked to scanners and targeting telemetry with MF would have been far more effective than Han Solo's hand/eye coordination. However, the drama of the human dynamic is what drives the movie.

What does that mean for us as gamers in FFG Star Wars? It's an interesting concept. Possibly it pushes us to make sure that the game is not simply a technical excercise but a fantasy thought obstacle course .... sometimes those ones we find ourselves on at the edge of sleep.

I know that gets a little esoteric but maybe it means that as gamers we need to not only think of what can be done, and have fun with that, but to impose some self limitations or quirks to our processes and characters actions that may not make as much logical sense but fit within the Star Wars conceptual-verse.

Very fair points, but again considering the CIS, I'm not sure if that's quite it. What I described is basically what their starfighter force was comprised of, they had few if any droid pilots, but rather droid brain controlled fighters. Or droids that physically were fighters. So the concept has already been used in universe. I kind of just assumed it wasn't more widespread because the average pilot simply doesn't trust droids that much to handle the job. Why would they? Droids tend to get quirky, theyve been known to rebel, they have no soul so how could they be trusted to know when not to shoot? Droids in an armed sense were largely feared by this time thanks to trillions being used against the Republic in the Clone War. That and I doubt it would be cheap for Han to install even more droid brains into his ship when he's already in constant debt lol.

But the idea could still work in universe for a crew that had no qualms about such things. A crew perhaps where their chief engineer was a droid itself, as is their primary heavy blaster wielder.

I will agree that it being a movie is the primary reason it's not seen much in universe though. It's just more visually compelling to have WWII esque gun turrets than automatic ones. But I'm not sure that's enough reason for it to not be done on a case by case basis. If the party found themselves spearheading an arms race where all of a sudden ships across the galaxy are being outfitted in this way, then something's gone wrong with the idea, or public opinion of droids has drastically changed in that group's universe.

I'm interested in where this goes as my EotE Engineer may end up going this route if the party finds themselves with a ship larger than they can comfortably crew. Building droids to pick up the slack would be one preferred option for them and having a decent idea of how to do so before it comes up will help make it smooth.

Though I'm also wondering how much the droid programming aspect could play into ship integrated AI's. If you basically build (or scavenge) a droid brain and plug it into a part of the ship (one of the turrets for instance) could you instead of building a normal frame, just install the automation hardware it would need to be a dedicated turret droid, and develop software for the same? I can't imagine the hardware aspect of that would be terribly difficult (compared to a full droid) as the components would already exist in some form. The Falcon had turret controls not only in its cockpit but in its engineering consoles too, so the actuators and such at the turret already exist. Just program the droid brain to be able to interact with them, and to be able to follow commands, judge priority targets, etc. In theory do the same concept for a gunnery control droid, has access to the ship's sensors and such and does the thinking, then sends targeting commands to the gun droids, that way you aren't spending resources programming X number of intelligent guns and rather 1 brain to tell X guns what to do.

I think the question then is, would the gunners still have physical stats? Generally Agility would determine how quickly you can bring a gun to bare and how accurately, but what if you are the gun? Can you not bring yourself to bare at the maximum speed the gun is capable of? Would the gunnery skill just be based off a mental stat instead in this case? The ability to perform rangefinding and such in split seconds perhaps? Sort of like pointing your arm, you're perfectly capable of pointing, but do you know where to point?

Alternatively, would Agility become a mental stat? Can you program agility rather than build it? Program the software efficiently enough to take full advantage of the hardware's innate agility?

Meanwhile the living crew who have other things to do have an automated defense system doing the heavy lifting as they fly, repair, repel boarders, etc. Not terribly different than a hired gun crew doing the same except they don't need pay, food, or bunks and can continue to function if the nearby hull section were vented into space due to damage. Would it be susceptible to electronic warfare? Of course, there's always a tradeoff. Also yes, this sounds suspiciously like the CIS, it is a coincidence. Their droids had very poor skills in... everything.

I think I just asked a bunch of questions rather than giving an opinion on anything... but hopefully they'll be helpful questions that can expand the discussion? I'm going to sleep now~

The examples of Droid brains controlling things that we have give them 0 in the Characteristic and a skill of 2 (which can be increased up to 4 with mods).

I personally think mechanics and computers would both play a role, with knowledge skills and/or talents potentially adding boost/setback dice. There are plenty of ways to add different types of skill checks to involve the whole group similar to space combat. It really depends on how complicated you want to make it. The more complex the machine, the more skill checks and rolls I would have them make. Here are some ideas:

1- You need a workshop or some kind of space to build the droid. This combined with what tools you have (for example a custom toolkit could add a boost.) would be my first skill check.

2- You need all the required parts to build the droid. Whether you are salvaging, buying new, using another droid etc.. This would be another skill check. Talents like Utinni could help here.

3- A knowledge skill check could be used to determine how well you know the droid schematic/type or to find information on the droid type you are building.

I would take the results of these skill checks and let the players use them in some way when making the actual droid. Maybe using every success as one boost die and every 3 advantage as another boost die during creation. Same could be used for failure and threat if they rolled poorly. Triumphs and despairs could be used to upgrade or downgrade the skill checks for creation.

Then the actual creation rolls would take place. I would let the players be a little creative, but I would say no less than 4 rolls with increasing difficulty per roll. Two computers and Two mechanics would be my bare minimum. Players could then come up with something to help build the droid giving a boost or using a combined check. For example:

- Strong character with athletics could help lift heavy parts or hold them in place.

- Agile character with good coordination could help with the manipulation of small pieces.

- Force sensitive character with move power could help similar to above.

- Someone with high leadership could help coordinate the effort of everyone building.

Anything like that could help add to the effort. All the results would be tallied and the end result would be based off of the amount of successes and advantages (or failures and threats). I would then base the droid off of the base droid you can make in character creation or an NPC droid depending on what the pcs were going for. The results could be used to add characteristics, skills and maybe 1 or two talents depending on what the pc's want. There are tons of droid npcs to use as well. Maybe the pc's wanted to build an astromech to save money instead of buying one? The results could be used to modify the NPC version if rolled well. There should be some credit cost thrown in as well. All that is lef would be the amount of time to build the droid. This will depend heavily on your campaign and what the GM wants to do. For something complex I would say at least 1-2 play sessions (depending on how much time has gone by) for the final result.