I don't think utility in the Space Cow is worth investing in, to be honest. It's hard enough to get it involved in the fight at all sometimes; I don't really want extra points tied up in it.

I could see using Turr as a cheaper ace to unlock a heavily-upgraded Phantom, though.

Hey, now you're sniffing around my super secret tournament list! I don't want that one to get out yet.

I don't think utility in the Space Cow is worth investing in, to be honest. It's hard enough to get it involved in the fight at all sometimes; I don't really want extra points tied up in it.

I could see using Turr as a cheaper ace to unlock a heavily-upgraded Phantom, though.

Dropping Stealth Device on Fel is probably a better way to go about it. That gives you 38 points to play with, assuming you still want an initiative bid.

Dropping Stealth Device on Fel is probably a better way to go about it. That gives you 38 points to play with, assuming you still want an initiative bid.

Dropping Stealth Device on Fel is just asking to lose him to an HLC. The one extra die for Stealth Device isn't just one extra die to roll an evade on. It's one extra die to roll a blank on, to trigger AutoT. It's one extra die for an eyeball to focus. It's a fourth die to completely dodge a Range 1 primary or an HLC. It very nearly is a free evade every round, the only exception being when you roll 2+ blanks (or of course when AutoT isn't in play). It's worth much more than 3 points.

The fourth defensive die from Stealth Device, in a list with only two offensive threats, is just too good to give up.

(It would already be interesting to trace the metagame ups and downs of Stealth Device ... )

Dropping Stealth Device on Fel is probably a better way to go about it. That gives you 38 points to play with, assuming you still want an initiative bid.

Dropping Stealth Device on Fel is just asking to lose him to an HLC. The one extra die for Stealth Device isn't just one extra die to roll an evade on. It's one extra die to roll a blank on, to trigger AutoT. It's one extra die for an eyeball to focus. It's a fourth die to completely dodge a Range 1 primary or an HLC. It very nearly is a free evade every round, the only exception being when you roll 2+ blanks (or of course when AutoT isn't in play). It's worth much more than 3 points.

The fourth defensive die from Stealth Device, in a list with only two offensive threats, is just too good to give up.

(It would already be interesting to trace the metagame ups and downs of Stealth Device ... )

Actually I'm completely okay with running aggressive targeting computer fel who dies. He becomes a piece trade and unless he is wasted for nothing I'm 100% okay with dead soontir and full health Vader to fight a battered enemy list. By turtling and playing a weaker Vader for a more defensive soontir you control the game less easily. People will jump at the chance to focus soontir without stealth even though he's still hard to kill, and typically that keeps them away from who I really want late game: Vader.

I could see using Turr as a cheaper ace to unlock a heavily-upgraded Phantom, though.

Coming in at 30 points, I see the Inquisitor with the title, Juke, and Autothrusters being a good choice for a lower priced ace to open up some room for a Phantom or more stuff on the shuttle.

I think the Inquisitor is going to make big waves in Imperial lists. Great price point and I keep looking at him when trying to theory craft lists.

Both Inquisitor and Omega Leader can be really mean in the high 20s. Interestingly, both shut down Autothrusters. Inquisitor does it by pretending it's not Range 3, and OL by not allowing dice modifications. You could do a really solid "3 Ace" list with those two and a pretty beefy 3rd ace. Maybe a souped up Phantom or Defender. The points flexibility they offer is really interesting. You could make Vader a third ace and have a couple missiles in the list to give it some utility and a bigger Alpha Strike against low PS beef lists.

Dropping Stealth Device on Fel is probably a better way to go about it. That gives you 38 points to play with, assuming you still want an initiative bid.

Dropping Stealth Device on Fel is just asking to lose him to an HLC. The one extra die for Stealth Device isn't just one extra die to roll an evade on. It's one extra die to roll a blank on, to trigger AutoT. It's one extra die for an eyeball to focus. It's a fourth die to completely dodge a Range 1 primary or an HLC. It very nearly is a free evade every round, the only exception being when you roll 2+ blanks (or of course when AutoT isn't in play). It's worth much more than 3 points.

The fourth defensive die from Stealth Device, in a list with only two offensive threats, is just too good to give up.

(It would already be interesting to trace the metagame ups and downs of Stealth Device ... )

Stealth Device is good on Fel, and it's excellent in combination with Palpatine. But the question isn't whether it's better to have Fel with Stealth or without--it's whether, when you're trying to cut points, it's better to cut Fel's without Stealth or drop from Fel to Turr.

(Also, as I said upthread, I think ignoring the shuttle's offensive potential is a mistake.)

Inquisitor with Juke, title and AT and a 40pt Whisper seem like it might be a good bet once he is out!

With all these palp+aces lists, is there any potential for Decimator +Gunner +Vader, plus two PS4 Saber Squadron interceptors with PTL + AT? Decivader to kill aces; Sabers to kill any swarms and TLT?

With all these palp+aces lists, is there any potential for Decimator +Gunner +Vader, plus two PS4 Saber Squadron interceptors with PTL + AT? Decivader to kill aces; Sabers to kill any swarms and TLT?

I tried that exact list a few times but I found that it got stomped too easily by dual Aggressors (this was before Wave 7).

I tried that exact list a few times but I found that it got stomped too easily by dual Aggressors (this was before Wave 7).

Hmm. Fewer aggressors now?

I feel like the meta is getting to the point where most archetypes have a couple of bad match ups, and several fair ones. One bad match up is good odds.

I tried that exact list a few times but I found that it got stomped too easily by dual Aggressors (this was before Wave 7).

Hmm. Fewer aggressors now?

I feel like the meta is getting to the point where most archetypes have a couple of bad match ups, and several fair ones. One bad match up is good odds.

Here's the thread from the Squad List forum that I created about the build.

I agree with TC on Soontir with vader. When you are new at flying Soontir, SD can be a much needed card for those flying mistakes, though TC boosts hos damage output massively and knowing how to fly hom means alot less damage taken.

Inquisitor with Juke, title and AT and a 40pt Whisper seem like it might be a good bet once he is out!

Just curious how the inquisitor would get that evade token to actually use juke. It would be awesome if he could, but as far as I can see he cant evade. Am I missing something?

Inquisitor with Juke, title and AT and a 40pt Whisper seem like it might be a good bet once he is out!

Just curious how the inquisitor would get that evade token to actually use juke. It would be awesome if he could, but as far as I can see he cant evade. Am I missing something?

The TIE/v1 title for the TIE Prototype allows you to take a free evade action after acquiring a target lock.

With all these palp+aces lists, is there any potential for Decimator +Gunner +Vader, plus two PS4 Saber Squadron interceptors with PTL + AT? Decivader to kill aces; Sabers to kill any swarms and TLT?

I tried that exact list a few times but I found that it got stomped too easily by dual Aggressors (this was before Wave 7).

I know a couple of players who went very far in regionals (top 8 multiple times) with VI RAC with Gunner and a wing mate. I think it was the U.S. Champ's only loss in Swiss at GenCon.

With all these palp+aces lists, is there any potential for Decimator +Gunner +Vader, plus two PS4 Saber Squadron interceptors with PTL + AT? Decivader to kill aces; Sabers to kill any swarms and TLT?

I tried that exact list a few times but I found that it got stomped too easily by dual Aggressors (this was before Wave 7).

I know a couple of players who went very far in regionals (top 8 multiple times) with VI RAC with Gunner and a wing mate. I think it was the U.S. Champ's only loss in Swiss at GenCon.

I believe that was before TLTs entered the scene though?

I love Deci's but they are absolutely murdered by TLTs and I think it would be difficult to justify running a Deci at worlds in 8 rounds of swiss with a strong possibility of facing multiple Quad TLT squads. Whilst not quite an auto loss it is the hardest counter out there.

In big tournaments I generally look for strong all rounders that don't rely on match ups for success.

Inquisitor with Juke, title and AT and a 40pt Whisper seem like it might be a good bet once he is out!

Just curious how the inquisitor would get that evade token to actually use juke. It would be awesome if he could, but as far as I can see he cant evade. Am I missing something?

The TIE/v1 title for the TIE Prototype allows you to take a free evade action after acquiring a target lock.

With all these palp+aces lists, is there any potential for Decimator +Gunner +Vader, plus two PS4 Saber Squadron interceptors with PTL + AT? Decivader to kill aces; Sabers to kill any swarms and TLT?

I tried that exact list a few times but I found that it got stomped too easily by dual Aggressors (this was before Wave 7).

I know a couple of players who went very far in regionals (top 8 multiple times) with VI RAC with Gunner and a wing mate. I think it was the U.S. Champ's only loss in Swiss at GenCon.

I believe that was before TLTs entered the scene though?

I love Deci's but they are absolutely murdered by TLTs and I think it would be difficult to justify running a Deci at worlds in 8 rounds of swiss with a strong possibility of facing multiple Quad TLT squads. Whilst not quite an auto loss it is the hardest counter out there.

In big tournaments I generally look for strong all rounders that don't rely on match ups for success.

It was, though I think at least a Kenkirk+Palp build did well at Nova, right (which is admittedly, different than the list I mentioned above but would still be weak against TLTs)? I'm guessing you've tested it a bit, and I'm not a a big turret player, so I haven't. And, I do agree with you about a strong all around list and avoiding lists that would have an awful matchup, at least one that you could expect to see. I actually said almost the exact same thing (about a different list) to someone today.

My theory is that RAC+Wingmate (Whisper or Fel) can probably hit pretty hard and that RAC, with engine can boost into R1 to avoid shots, or at the edge of R3 to avoid all of them. It would take at least 2 full rounds for TLTs to drop the decimator assuming that they were all able to fire in both rounds. By the time the TLTs had a shot Round 2, I'd think it likely they were down a ship and eventually ending up in an 2v1 endgame with an unscathed ace. Am I just being optimistic?

With all these palp+aces lists, is there any potential for Decimator +Gunner +Vader, plus two PS4 Saber Squadron interceptors with PTL + AT? Decivader to kill aces; Sabers to kill any swarms and TLT?

I tried that exact list a few times but I found that it got stomped too easily by dual Aggressors (this was before Wave 7).

I know a couple of players who went very far in regionals (top 8 multiple times) with VI RAC with Gunner and a wing mate. I think it was the U.S. Champ's only loss in Swiss at GenCon.

I believe that was before TLTs entered the scene though?

I love Deci's but they are absolutely murdered by TLTs and I think it would be difficult to justify running a Deci at worlds in 8 rounds of swiss with a strong possibility of facing multiple Quad TLT squads. Whilst not quite an auto loss it is the hardest counter out there.

In big tournaments I generally look for strong all rounders that don't rely on match ups for success.

It was, though I think at least a Kenkirk+Palp build did well at Nova, right (which is admittedly, different than the list I mentioned above but would still be weak against TLTs)? I'm guessing you've tested it a bit, and I'm not a a big turret player, so I haven't. And, I do agree with you about a strong all around list and avoiding lists that would have an awful matchup, at least one that you could expect to see. I actually said almost the exact same thing (about a different list) to someone today.

My theory is that RAC+Wingmate (Whisper or Fel) can probably hit pretty hard and that RAC, with engine can boost into R1 to avoid shots, or at the edge of R3 to avoid all of them. It would take at least 2 full rounds for TLTs to drop the decimator assuming that they were all able to fire in both rounds. By the time the TLTs had a shot Round 2, I'd think it likely they were down a ship and eventually ending up in an 2v1 endgame with an unscathed ace. Am I just being optimistic?

From memory I think Nova was Kirk with Palp and Whisper but I don't think that squad can handle Quad TLTs with enough consistency.

I've played the Quad TLT vs Deci + various Aces about 20 times now and my record is not good. I think it's around 5-15. With certain configurations I have won but I think you need to do 3 things to give you a reasonable chance:

1. Build specifically for TLTs

2. Play flawlessly

3. Have the dice go your way

The downside of the above is if you are building specifically for TLTs you are generally losing the greatest strengths of the Deci upgrades and squad combos and therefore will suffer badly against Brobots, Aces and Agility 3 types. Conversely, if you build for Aces you will likely lose every game against a 3-4 ship TLT match. In my mind the Deci cannot take all comers with consistency at the moment.

Considering this is a thread on Ace+Aces+Palpshuttle it almost rules out entirely a Deci squad that is capable of beating Quad TLTs, Aces and Brobots. I'm not saying it can't be done but to do it with enough consistency to beat world class players?

So if you are planning on taking a Deci to worlds, regardless of any configuration you take, you will have a hard counter in Quad TLTs and varying levels of difficulty against the other top meta squads - It's a hard sell for any Large base turret actually (Dash gets off the easiest though). Pre-TLT I was a dedicated Deci man but now I like Aces in a 3-4 ship squad as my go to Imperial builds and Ace+Ace+Palpshuttle is certainly one of the better ones.

Really interesting guys, thank you. My hopes for Decivader+2Sabres are based on ease of flying; strength against palp+aces; and low chance of TLTs in my gentlemanly meta. Worried about dual-IG88s though.

In a tournament, I'd rather have an easy to fly list, and risk a bad match up, than tire myself running a skilled aces list which is a good all-rounder. This is based on my own skill level of course!

Having read through the previous pages, there doesn't seem to be that many suggestions for what to do against the Palp + Aces. There's lots of shuttle first/aces first, and a few suggestions that have been shot down. So what can go up against this trio without simply mirroring it?

Deci + Ace didn't appear to get many likes.

X-Wings might, but likely not until after the IA is released.

4 TLTs sticking together and focus firing anything that gets into range until it's dead?

Fat Han with Gunner and C-3PO along with Wedge or Poe?

4 TIE Bombers running a slew of ion pulses, homing missiles, assault missiles, and connor nets?

I actually took 4 Rookie X-Wings with R2 and Proton Torpedoes against Palp Omicron/Soontir/Vader and won out of sheer luck. I ran my X-Wings straight down the middle at the shuttle while my opponent started an ace in each corner and the shuttle going slowly up the middle. At the same time that both Aces turned in, I 3 turned all X-Wings towards Soontir and all caught him at Range 2-3 while Vader only had one shot at one X-Wing at Range 3 through a rock (another asteroid prevented Soontir from barrel rolling out of arc of one of my ships). Both X-Wings survived the ace shots, and I killed Soontir with only two torpedo volleys due to rebel aligned green dice.

Double 3 Turned around that same asteroid to get the shuttle with two more proton torpedo shots and rolled really well on those, killed it the following turn but lost an X-Wing.

The rest of the match was Vader vs 3 Rookies, and I won with a single hull point left on my last ship. However, the dice were with me through the whole game so I cannot reasonably expect similar results next time.

I'm guessing V.I + tactician + stims + EU Boba (scum) with 2 TLT + r4 thugs will do just dandy

it depends on how well you can control range with the spray, but the TLTS utterly eviscerate poor Vader and Boba can neuter interceptors without issue (plus, he shoot before Whisper can cloak/focus). Any who survive will have zero issues with the shuttle.