The main reason I don't think the Palpatine + 2 Aces archetype is overwhelming, is the number of counters to it. Deny the aces their actions: by blocking with lower PS ships, giving them stress tokens, or using pilots like Carnor Jax. Deal them unavoidable damage: from munitions or crew Vader.

I lost my first two games flying this list: first because of munitions; then from blocking, stress and ions. Granted, I am a mediocre player, placing halfway in my local tournaments. The lesson I learnt was, stay at range 3, and have patience!

This list is apparently strong against the other two current meta favourites: TLT and swarms. I think both of those archetypes would do well to not just spam one thing, but instead add an element from the rest of the toolbox.

What are people's general strategies and openings/deployment when playing WITH this list?

I've not played with or against it yet so I'm just theorising:

- Keep the palpmobile out of the fight for as long as possible, flying around the edge of the board, modifying dice

- They either take the bait and go after it and you flank them with your 2 Aces or they go after your aces which try and arc dodge and survive until the shuttle gets in the fight

- ????

So far I started by deploying the shuttle in the middle, holding it back for a couple of turns, then charging in to deliver target-locked 3/4 dice attacks, and blocking. Had EU which helped.

I need to learn to split up my two aces, keeping them far away from any other ship.

I used Palpatine's ability only for defending the aces: except for a couple of occasions when it hadn't been necessary, so I could use it to boost my shuttle's fire.

What are people's general strategies and openings/deployment when playing WITH this list?

I've not played with or against it yet so I'm just theorising:

- Keep the palpmobile out of the fight for as long as possible, flying around the edge of the board, modifying dice

- They either take the bait and go after it and you flank them with your 2 Aces or they go after your aces which try and arc dodge and survive until the shuttle gets in the fight

- ????

When I play it, I set up the shuttle in a corner at a 30° or 45° angle (depending on obstacle placement). The aces typically get to watch where the opponent's first few ships set up, and then I deploy them so that they have different flanking angles: one attempts to catch the opponent's advancing ships at about 30° clockwise from their approach vector, and the other attempts to catch them at about 135° (that is, it uses fast maneuvers and boost to loop around and approach from behind).

At that point it becomes about timing and whether/how my opponent reacts. If he turns toward the racing 135° flanker, that flanker turtles up while the shuttle and the other ace accelerate to catch the opponent in a deflection shot as his or her ships cross the board. If they attempt to joust with the shuttle or the 30° ace, that ace either disengages or turtles while the shuttle stalls--which lets the 135° ace maneuver into a tailing position.

Of course it gets more complicated if the opponent has ships moving after your aces, or if the opponent doesn't deploy and fly in a block. But those are the basics.

What are people's general strategies and openings/deployment when playing WITH this list?

I've not played with or against it yet so I'm just theorising:

- Keep the palpmobile out of the fight for as long as possible, flying around the edge of the board, modifying dice

- They either take the bait and go after it and you flank them with your 2 Aces or they go after your aces which try and arc dodge and survive until the shuttle gets in the fight

- ????

I know this thread is 9 pages long so far, but it contains many of the for and against strategies by a number of different players. I would suggest reading it if you haven't.

What are people's general strategies and openings/deployment when playing WITH this list?

I've not played with or against it yet so I'm just theorising:

- Keep the palpmobile out of the fight for as long as possible, flying around the edge of the board, modifying dice

- They either take the bait and go after it and you flank them with your 2 Aces or they go after your aces which try and arc dodge and survive until the shuttle gets in the fight

- ????

So far I started by deploying the shuttle in the middle, holding it back for a couple of turns, then charging in to deliver target-locked 3/4 dice attacks, and blocking. Had EU which helped.

I need to learn to split up my two aces, keeping them far away from any other ship.

I used Palpatine's ability only for defending the aces: except for a couple of occasions when it hadn't been necessary, so I could use it to boost my shuttle's fire.

What are people's general strategies and openings/deployment when playing WITH this list?

I've not played with or against it yet so I'm just theorising:

- Keep the palpmobile out of the fight for as long as possible, flying around the edge of the board, modifying dice

- They either take the bait and go after it and you flank them with your 2 Aces or they go after your aces which try and arc dodge and survive until the shuttle gets in the fight

- ????

When I play it, I set up the shuttle in a corner at a 30° or 45° angle (depending on obstacle placement). The aces typically get to watch where the opponent's first few ships set up, and then I deploy them so that they have different flanking angles: one attempts to catch the opponent's advancing ships at about 30° clockwise from their approach vector, and the other attempts to catch them at about 135° (that is, it uses fast maneuvers and boost to loop around and approach from behind).

At that point it becomes about timing and whether/how my opponent reacts. If he turns toward the racing 135° flanker, that flanker turtles up while the shuttle and the other ace accelerate to catch the opponent in a deflection shot as his or her ships cross the board. If they attempt to joust with the shuttle or the 30° ace, that ace either disengages or turtles while the shuttle stalls--which lets the 135° ace maneuver into a tailing position.

Of course it gets more complicated if the opponent has ships moving after your aces, or if the opponent doesn't deploy and fly in a block. But those are the basics.

Thanks - good stuff.

I'm wondering if deploying the shuttle in the corner and then flying along my edge is a good idea, it really keeps it out of the fight, but it might take too long to get a shot

Maybe this is a high skill gate to work squad. I don't get how Soontir's team mate doesn't just disappear in most games

What are people's general strategies and openings/deployment when playing WITH this list?

I've not played with or against it yet so I'm just theorising:

- Keep the palpmobile out of the fight for as long as possible, flying around the edge of the board, modifying dice

- They either take the bait and go after it and you flank them with your 2 Aces or they go after your aces which try and arc dodge and survive until the shuttle gets in the fight

- ????

I've played this list exclusively since Emperor came out and here's my take on it.

Typically, you want the Emperor to be cross deployed from your opponent's forces. Say that I'm flying Jax/Fel with this combo, and my opponent is taking DashBB. I already know that Jax/Fel outpaces all his other pilots, so the intiative bid comes mainly in where the deployment of the shuttle comes in. Giving my opponent initiative in this case allows me to see where he puts his Bs, so I can cross deploy from him and use my Interceptors to greater effect (giving them time to move, shoot, and getting more rounds in of shooting/defending with the Emperor's bonus). The shuttle will deploy on the corner. My asteroid selection are the smallest asteroids you can find, placed as sparsely as I can find while still making it a chore to easily access the shuttle itself. My Interceptors, after seeing where everyone else drops, will be in position threaten and possibly flank, but never entirely flank, and never without the help from the other. Ideally what you want to occur is a firefight where you can have 2 aces shooting on one ship, while limiting their response to you (either out of arc, in range 3, or only 1 ship gets to shoot..etc).

I've been playing Interceptors since I started playing the game so I'm much more comfortable on the table with them. I should probably make a more indepth post on my blog later about flying this particular list, as I think there is a LOT of working parts to it.

What aces are people taking?

I've seen Vader and Soontir as the main two. I'm leaning towards Carnor as the counter to an opponent's Soontir, but he himself is weaker against other lists. Haven't seen much evidence of Vader being omitted.

What aces are people taking?

I've seen Vader and Soontir as the main two. I'm leaning towards Carnor as the counter to an opponent's Soontir, but he himself is weaker against other lists. Haven't seen much evidence of Vader being omitted.

Fel and Emperor are staples, the rest cycles between Jax, Vader, Whisper. You see the oddball mix the latter few once in a while, but mostly you just see Fel because always a strong pick.

Out of all of these guys, you see Jax as the sleeper pick but he's my personal favorite. I was in a tournament this weekend and I flew Fel/Vader and in every single one of my games, I wish I had Jax instead.

Here is what Jax offers to the table (the short and dry version):

Autothruster

Another Interceptor dial

3 dice base attack, 4 evade dice with SD, 5 at Range 3 + AT (more dice to throw equates to more dice to turn with Emperor)

Gives you a better matchup vs. TLT

His ability keeps the Emperor around longer

My question is what would happen if you applied the same method of analysis MJ is using here to, say, a Recon Specialist on a Bounty Hunter. I doubt it would be as valuable as the Emperor, but I suspect you'd find that according to this method a lot of upgrades are going to be very valuable.

Incidentally, [insert ship here] + ReconSpec is on the docket for the next big jousting update that will more accurately model a statline-based action economy. But that is using a different method.

A more holistic approach to evaluating Palpatine is to include the ship that he is on. So if the shuttle never gets to shoot, for example, then the ship+crew combo may not make back its 29 points even if Palpatine as crew does extremely well. It's another metric that I will be tracking.

Looks like another Nationals won by Ace+Ace+Palpshuttle, that makes two National wins in consecutive weekends. Philippines was this weekend just gone and New Zealand the week before.

NZ nats was won by a Whisper/Vader/Colztet build. Palp +2 aces did get 3rd and 4th (and 5th and 6th and 2 other places in top 16 I think)

NZ nationals won by Geoff Gartland- Imperial: 99pts

36 points: Darth Vader TIE Advanced, TIE/x1, Lone Wolf, Engine Upgrade, Advanced Targeting Computer.

39 points: “Whisper” TIE Phantom, Fire-Control System, Veteran Instincts, Advanced Cloaking Device.

24 points: Lieutenant Colzet TIE Advanced, TIE/x1, Advanced Targeting Computer

I don't see the results up on ListJuggler yet. Got links for these tournaments? The Nationals thread needs updating.

What aces are people taking?

I've seen Vader and Soontir as the main two. I'm leaning towards Carnor as the counter to an opponent's Soontir, but he himself is weaker against other lists. Haven't seen much evidence of Vader being omitted.

Fel and Emperor are staples, the rest cycles between Jax, Vader, Whisper. You see the oddball mix the latter few once in a while, but mostly you just see Fel because always a strong pick.

Out of all of these guys, you see Jax as the sleeper pick but he's my personal favorite. I was in a tournament this weekend and I flew Fel/Vader and in every single one of my games, I wish I had Jax instead.

Here is what Jax offers to the table (the short and dry version):

Autothruster

Another Interceptor dial

3 dice base attack, 4 evade dice with SD, 5 at Range 3 + AT (more dice to throw equates to more dice to turn with Emperor)

Gives you a better matchup vs. TLT

His ability keeps the Emperor around longer

The downside of Jax is that even with PTL he doesn't match Fel's action economy, and he can't match Fel's PS without Beteran Instincts (which obviously displaces PTL). It's a balancing act, and basically any time I take one of them there's at least one round where I really wish I'd taken the other one.

I just wanna say how happy I am that my term "The Palpmobile" has been added to the X-wing lexicon. In addition, all my predictions of 2-ace+Palp lists doing well have come true. I honestly think its the best thing to happen to X-wing in a while because its a powerful list that still requires skill and finesse to use properly, as well as being thematic.

In my local Meta the term "Palpatank" has also become a thing, describing Kenkirk + Palpatine + Isard + etc. I'm hoping that term catches on and spreads too.

The correct term is "Round Table List."

The King, his Gwenivere, a Round table, and a Loyal Knight questing in his name.

What aces are people taking?

I've seen Vader and Soontir as the main two. I'm leaning towards Carnor as the counter to an opponent's Soontir, but he himself is weaker against other lists. Haven't seen much evidence of Vader being omitted.

Fel and Emperor are staples, the rest cycles between Jax, Vader, Whisper. You see the oddball mix the latter few once in a while, but mostly you just see Fel because always a strong pick.

Out of all of these guys, you see Jax as the sleeper pick but he's my personal favorite. I was in a tournament this weekend and I flew Fel/Vader and in every single one of my games, I wish I had Jax instead.

Here is what Jax offers to the table (the short and dry version):

Autothruster

Another Interceptor dial

3 dice base attack, 4 evade dice with SD, 5 at Range 3 + AT (more dice to throw equates to more dice to turn with Emperor)

Gives you a better matchup vs. TLT

His ability keeps the Emperor around longer

The downside of Jax is that even with PTL he doesn't match Fel's action economy, and he can't match Fel's PS without Beteran Instincts (which obviously displaces PTL). It's a balancing act, and basically any time I take one of them there's at least one round where I really wish I'd taken the other one.

Of course, that's why you see lists where there's Vader/Fel and Fel/Jax.

Vader, being the greedy dark lord himself, tends to benefit himself. He suffers heavily due to predictable movement (or non-predictable movement but then succeptible to damage (due to no AT, SD, anti-Focus/Evade Jax or Fel's Focus stacks)), and generally the TIE Advanced's dial.

So to break down Vader's pros (cut and dry):

PS9

Larger, but conditional damage potential from TL+ATC

Synergy with Fel's ability to eat shields, then have Vader lay on the Crits

Free double actions without stress

Innate durability with 3 HP 2 Shields (don't get too excited)

His weaknesses:

If he wants to move well, he sacrifices either damage, or defense

No autothrusters (strong in the meta)

Weak against TLT, popular in the meta

Only really looks after himself (unlike Jax, who benefits the team with his ability)

To go with Jax's pros, here are some of his flaws:

PTL is the gold standard for all Interceptors, so he's stuck with PS8

Does not have the action economy of Fel, or the unstressed double action like Vader

3 HP with SD that can go away, so a round of bad rolls can do you in, just like any other Interceptor

And then we have Baron Soontir Fel himself:

Best action economy in the game when it comes to attack/defense

Interceptor dial

PS9

Autothrusters (strong in meta)

Good stats

Fel's cons:

If you get blocked, you're dead. No actions on Fel is the worst.

And the inherent weaknesses of being an Interceptor: 3 HP with SD that can go away, so a round of bad rolls can do you in.

So basically, if you're flying an Interceptor, you have to accept the finality that you're flying a 3 hull ship with 3 attack dice. You do NOT do a lot of damage per turn, so you absolutely HAVE to make the ships work. If your opponent downs an ace and you haven't done signficant damage to him back, the chances of you winning goes down dramatically, probably more so than any other list in the game. This was the case when I flew trip Interceptors in Wave 3, and its the same now. The only thing that has changed is that the old man really helps with the Interceptors #1 weakness: rolling blanks.

Oh, I forgot about Whisper:

PS9 Whisper (VI mandatory)

4 attack dice and almost 4 evade dice on every opportunity

Excellent sustained firepower and durability after attack (Focus --> FCS, Whisper Focus)

Phantom movement

Cons:

Expensive, leaves very little room left for upgrades (Fel with no SD)

Extremely fragile if outpaced: Anything with PS9+ that outbid you will be deadly.

Overall fragility despite the 4 effective HP, this is because of no double-stack of Focus/Evade options and AT

And then we have Baron Soontir Fel himself:

Best action economy in the game when it comes to attack/defense

Yet I would present PtL Jake backed by Comms Booster in epic play. Capable of the equivalent of five actions and no stress.

Fun theorycraft, but Jake can't equip Comms Booster. =)

Yet I would present PtL Jake backed by Comms Booster in epic play. Capable of the equivalent of five actions and no stress.

Fun theorycraft, but Jake can't equip Comms Booster. =)

Edit: This particular combo is not theorycrafting. I've seen it in action.

Derp. Ignore me. I got "Comms Booster" confused with "Comm Relay".

Omega Leader, Juke, Comm Relay, Stealth Device.

You have unmodified dice. Well, not quite unmodified, Leader gets to crack shot every shot he makes. Reds, greens, Omega Leader whispers in their ears telling them to betray you.

Leader doesnt care about your ATC, your evade tokens, your autothrusters... even your god Emperor cannot save you, especially when Leader is rolling 4 greens backed with a focus and evade.

Omega Leader, Juke, Comm Relay, Stealth Device.

You have unmodified dice. Well, not quite unmodified, Leader gets to crack shot every shot he makes. Reds, greens, Omega Leader whispers in their ears telling them to betray you.

Leader doesnt care about your ATC, your evade tokens, your autothrusters... even your god Emperor cannot save you, especially when Leader is rolling 4 greens backed with a focus and evade.

I want to fly this build so hard. I love it because it's dirty, but it's still only a 2 dice attack, so I don't think it's really going to be overpowered.

Typically, you want the Emperor to be cross deployed from your opponent's forces. Say that I'm flying Jax/Fel with this combo, and my opponent is taking DashBB. I already know that Jax/Fel outpaces all his other pilots, so the intiative bid comes mainly in where the deployment of the shuttle comes in. Giving my opponent initiative in this case allows me to see where he puts his Bs, so I can cross deploy from him and use my Interceptors to greater effect (giving them time to move, shoot, and getting more rounds in of shooting/defending with the Emperor's bonus). The shuttle will deploy on the corner.

On the opposite side, when facing Palp + 2 aces, you may want to deploy your lower PS ships in the middle of the board. I know it goes against best practices, but if you do plan on gunning the shuttle first, it may cut a turn of movement.

Typically, you want the Emperor to be cross deployed from your opponent's forces. Say that I'm flying Jax/Fel with this combo, and my opponent is taking DashBB. I already know that Jax/Fel outpaces all his other pilots, so the intiative bid comes mainly in where the deployment of the shuttle comes in. Giving my opponent initiative in this case allows me to see where he puts his Bs, so I can cross deploy from him and use my Interceptors to greater effect (giving them time to move, shoot, and getting more rounds in of shooting/defending with the Emperor's bonus). The shuttle will deploy on the corner.

On the opposite side, when facing Palp + 2 aces, you may want to deploy your lower PS ships in the middle of the board. I know it goes against best practices, but if you do plan on gunning the shuttle first, it may cut a turn of movement.

You don't gun for the shuttle first. Big mistake. You take the aces head on so that they are forced to veer away or be blocked. Block = dead for the aces, so they have to fly away. Then, when they are busy turning around to get back into the fight, you put your entire list's firepower into the shuttle. Now its 2 aces vs your entire list and no more emperor. Some lists will be better at fighting in different ways, but this is the best way to take on 2 aces + palp shuttle speaking in general terms.

Of course, that's why you see lists where there's Vader/Fel and Fel/Jax.

Vader, being the greedy dark lord himself, tends to benefit himself. He suffers heavily due to predictable movement (or non-predictable movement but then succeptible to damage (due to no AT, SD, anti-Focus/Evade Jax or Fel's Focus stacks)), and generally the TIE Advanced's dial.

So to break down Vader's pros (cut and dry):

PS9

Larger, but conditional damage potential from TL+ATC

Synergy with Fel's ability to eat shields, then have Vader lay on the Crits

Free double actions without stress

Innate durability with 3 HP 2 Shields (don't get too excited)

His weaknesses:

If he wants to move well, he sacrifices either damage, or defense

No autothrusters (strong in the meta)

Weak against TLT, popular in the meta

Only really looks after himself (unlike Jax, who benefits the team with his ability)

To go with Jax's pros, here are some of his flaws:

PTL is the gold standard for all Interceptors, so he's stuck with PS8

Does not have the action economy of Fel, or the unstressed double action like Vader

3 HP with SD that can go away, so a round of bad rolls can do you in, just like any other Interceptor

And then we have Baron Soontir Fel himself:

Best action economy in the game when it comes to attack/defense

Interceptor dial

PS9

Autothrusters (strong in meta)

Good stats

Fel's cons:

If you get blocked, you're dead. No actions on Fel is the worst.

And the inherent weaknesses of being an Interceptor: 3 HP with SD that can go away, so a round of bad rolls can do you in.

So basically, if you're flying an Interceptor, you have to accept the finality that you're flying a 3 hull ship with 3 attack dice. You do NOT do a lot of damage per turn, so you absolutely HAVE to make the ships work. If your opponent downs an ace and you haven't done signficant damage to him back, the chances of you winning goes down dramatically, probably more so than any other list in the game. This was the case when I flew trip Interceptors in Wave 3, and its the same now. The only thing that has changed is that the old man really helps with the Interceptors #1 weakness: rolling blanks.

Oh, I forgot about Whisper:

PS9 Whisper (VI mandatory)

4 attack dice and almost 4 evade dice on every opportunity

Excellent sustained firepower and durability after attack (Focus --> FCS, Whisper Focus)

Phantom movement

Cons:

Expensive, leaves very little room left for upgrades (Fel with no SD)

Extremely fragile if outpaced: Anything with PS9+ that outbid you will be deadly.

Overall fragility despite the 4 effective HP, this is because of no double-stack of Focus/Evade options and AT

You forgot a pretty significant Con that applies to any PTL user and Whisper, but not so much to Vader (therefore its a benefit Vader has relative to the others) and that is vulnerability to stress. Vader is okay taking 1 stress (but not 2) whereas Fel, Jax all do very poorly if they get hit by stress. Vader is also slightly more resilient to Vader crew compared to the others (and to rebel captive relative to Whisper).

R3-A2, rebel captive, tactician and flechette torpedo are all cheap, excellent anti-soontir/jax tech. If you can double stress then they are good vs Whisper and Vader too (rebel captive trumps Whisper more than Vader). Vader + Gunner is another combo that I'm surprised more people don't take given the prevalence of this list, but I guess everyone is afraid of the new scoring system and twin laser turrets (secret: decimators w/ engine do fine against twin laser turrets).

You don't gun for the shuttle first. Big mistake. You take the aces head on so that they are forced to veer away or be blocked. Block = dead for the aces, so they have to fly away. Then, when they are busy turning around to get back into the fight, you put your entire list's firepower into the shuttle. Now its 2 aces vs your entire list and no more emperor. Some lists will be better at fighting in different ways, but this is the best way to take on 2 aces + palp shuttle speaking in general terms.

I second this strategy.

When an Interceptor's only way to survive is to 4-straight and camp focus/evade, that's the opening you're looking for.

You don't gun for the shuttle first. Big mistake. You take the aces head on so that they are forced to veer away or be blocked. Block = dead for the aces, so they have to fly away. Then, when they are busy turning around to get back into the fight, you put your entire list's firepower into the shuttle. Now its 2 aces vs your entire list and no more emperor. Some lists will be better at fighting in different ways, but this is the best way to take on 2 aces + palp shuttle speaking in general terms.

Pretty much how I played it last week-end. However, if it deploys diagonally across from you and you need 2 or 3 turns just to get it in range, you're not going to be able to put any firepower into it when the aces turn around. If you can engage the aces closer to the shuttle though, it's easier to switch targets.

Been playtesting against the list for a week now and I have revised my strategy for low PS squads. The shuttle is a target of opportunity but the first target is to try and focus fire down one of the aces. By the time one or two rounds of that has happened the shuttle should be within range. Then it is a matter of opportunity to pursue the shuttle or keep after the ace/s.

Initially I tried taking out the shuttle first and I would usually end up with half my squad gone or on low hull before turning on the aces. They just clean up. An attack line must be used that engages at least one of the aces and does them some serious damage or hopefully destoys them by the 3rd round. Then you decide if you have enough health left to take the shuttle before the 2nd ace or if you must commit to focus firing on the ace and hope you can overrun the Palpatine buff.

I tried several low ps rebel lists and it really comes down to the luck of the dice in the first few rounds. With one ace down or running you are in with a chance. Most of my games have ended with only one or two ships left standing from a squad of 4 or 5, and usually in a low hull state of damage.

No one's mentioned Turr Phennir. With VI he can be an extremely frustrating arc dodger to track down. He's also cheaper which means that you can put a few mods on the Dark Pope's ride. I like this:

Push the Limit

Autothrusters

Stealth Device

Good PS and Initiative bid. Palp's has a shuttle that's an effective blocker with a chance to Ionize. Yes TPhen isn't doing massive crits like Vader but now you've got two Autothruster ships with SD's and you get utility out of the space cow. Heck, if you're worried about the Lambda going down early you can ever put Sensor Jammers on it in this list.