I'm hoping all this pre-Worlds hype will just make it that much easier for Deathrain to dominate everything with Conner Nets.

conner nets

utterly ruinous for poor Vader or Soontir

TLTs do okay, but unsupported by either R4 or remove of enemy defensive tokens they're going to have a hard time getting through focus/evades/thrusters/palpie

to be honest, the only practical experience I had came from facing it with my joke list of TLT + c3po Miranda, TLT + nets + slam + munis warden, and TLT + r2-d6 Goldie

Poor Vader really can't handle TLT, it seems, and after a range 3 exchange + a marvelous Warden U-turn into conner net, the dark lord was done.

the combination of guaranteed damage and action denial make Conner Net a death sentence against high value targets, palpie or no

I'd image panic attack is quite capable of causing fits as well

I know it is politically incorrect to call any card 'overpowered', but I am curious what would realistically deserve that label, if not Palpatine.

Considering his high cost, and the fact that you basically have to devote almost a 3rd of your list to a ship that people generally didn't use at all before, I don't think he's overpowered at all. You're basically spending 29 points for that ability, and that's a lot to spend for any ability, no matter how good it is.

What defines "high cost"? True, he is the most costly crew. But when that one crew is worth about 2 TIE Fighters, you will be more than happy to spend those 8 points on him. He is very inexpensive compared to the benefit that he provides.

By definition, the ships in the winning squad have collectively provided greater return on investment than the ships in the opposing squad. The whole purpose of the game is to get your squad to have a good return on investment.

It's difficult to judge a single card, because even Palpatine has success predicated so heavily on his squad being in the right positions to make his ability matter.

Ed and I played a game last night. We called the game when it was just my 4 HP 88C left vs his 9HP Palpmobile. If the game were timed, he would have a modified win on points 73-70. Untimed, I win on position, as his shuttle was not going to get another shot the rest of the game.

Palpatine was worth 33 points this game and he still lost (untimed). So, in this case he got a huge value out of Palpatine but still lost. Palpatine's effect single handedly kept him in the game.

We're going to review the TCA games to get some quantified breakdowns. Objectively speaking from just the cold hard facts, you have to conclude that Palpatine is overpowered - it is merely a question of "by how much". The answer falls somewhere in the range of "he is an extremely good value like C-3P0 is", to "the entire metagame now revolves around this one card like pre-nerf Whisper in wave 4."

Unfortunately propagating the truth at this point will just convince everyone to run it at Worlds, which means I will do far worse next week as I am running BroBots. ha ha. Oh well. Or maybe everyone will figure out its counter and run that instead. (5 ship rebels with a sprinkling of TLT? Or maybe 8 TIE Fighters?)

I think you have to consider the ships you can use Palp on when calculating his value.A part of C3P0s value was that you could put him on an already awesome ship without sacrificing a better crew (can still use Gunner/Luke or R2-D2).

A Palpmobile isnt really a great ship save for Palps effect, consdering you can get much better overall ships for 29pts (blue with fcs+tactician+whatever, Carnor with VI+AT, Zertik Strom or a number of other ships).

On Decimator you usually sacrifice gunner and Rebel Captive (one of the best crew cards in the game) for Palp, so there's also some opportunity cost there.

Still, i agree that its an awesome card because, unlike c3p0, you will get value out of the card EVERY turn that he's alive.

Or maybe everyone will figure out its counter and run that instead. (5 ship rebels with a sprinkling of TLT? Or maybe 8 TIE Fighters?)

The counter to Palpatine is a reactor shaft.

Ed and I played a game last night. We called the game when it was just my 4 HP 88C left vs his 9HP Palpmobile. If the game were timed, he would have a modified win on points 73-70. Untimed, I win on position, as his shuttle was not going to get another shot the rest of the game.

Palpatine was worth 33 points this game and he still lost (untimed). So, in this case he got a huge value out of Palpatine but still lost. Palpatine's effect single handedly kept him in the game.

We're going to review the TCA games to get some quantified breakdowns. Objectively speaking from just the cold hard facts, you have to conclude that Palpatine is overpowered - it is merely a question of "by how much". The answer falls somewhere in the range of "he is an extremely good value like C-3P0 is", to "the entire metagame now revolves around this one card like pre-nerf Whisper in wave 4."

Unfortunately propagating the truth at this point will just convince everyone to run it at Worlds, which means I will do far worse next week as I am running BroBots. ha ha. Oh well. Or maybe everyone will figure out its counter and run that instead. (5 ship rebels with a sprinkling of TLT? Or maybe 8 TIE Fighters?)

While I appreciate your numbers here, I very much think what you are implying is a very big overstatement of just how good Palpatine himself is. I don't have the math background to refute your calculations, but I do have concerns about the methodology of looking at the card in isolation when is really the list at large that is providing the synergy for it to be that valuable.

The implication of which, if you think about it in those terms, is damning for more than Palpatine, since as Biophysical said, this is what all good lists do well, though it might not be because of the inclusion of one card.

Let me put it another way. I assume you were flying your IG 88s? If you beat a list that got so many additional points out of Palpatine and still won, isn't your "list" overpowered, too even if it involves a combination of a coupe more cards to get that value? Maybe it's the combination of gunner+Fcs or the sharing of great abilities for free...etc...

How are decimator with Palpatine and ace escort performing?

Seems like it would meliorate the squishy shuttle and add turret fire power for the sacrifice of one ace.

Oicunn expose gunner palpatine 59

Kenkirk predator gunner palpatine 60

Chiraneau VI gunner palpatine 60

40 points for an ace.

Soontir

Vader

Whisper

All fit.

Palpatine buffs the ace until the decimator is in trouble and he hangs around for more rounds due to the decimators 16 damage points.

conner nets

utterly ruinous for poor Vader or Soontir

TLTs do okay

to be honest, the only practical experience I had came from facing it with my joke list of TLT + c3po Miranda, TLT + nets + slam + munis warden, and TLT + r2-d6 Goldie

Poor Vader really can't handle TLT, it seems, and after a range 3 exchange + a marvelous Warden U-turn into conner net, the dark lord was done.

the combination of guaranteed damage and action denial make Conner Net a death sentence against high value targets, palpie or no

I'd image panic attack is quite capable of causing fits as well

I'm wondering if a 7-8 TIE swarm would also be able to do alright. The Imperial Aces list relies on having fewer dice rolls, and only has 2-3 attacks per round.

Palpatine was worth 33 points this game and he still lost (untimed). So, in this case he got a huge value out of Palpatine but still lost. Palpatine's effect single handedly kept him in the game.

We're going to review the TCA games to get some quantified breakdowns. Objectively speaking from just the cold hard facts, you have to conclude that Palpatine is overpowered - it is merely a question of "by how much". The answer falls somewhere in the range of "he is an extremely good value like C-3P0 is", to "the entire metagame now revolves around this one card like pre-nerf Whisper in wave 4."

Unfortunately propagating the truth at this point will just convince everyone to run it at Worlds, which means I will do far worse next week as I am running BroBots. ha ha. Oh well. Or maybe everyone will figure out its counter and run that instead. (5 ship rebels with a sprinkling of TLT? Or maybe 8 TIE Fighters?)

A couple of thoughts on this:

-Palp plus his shuttle was worth 29 points. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing the shuttle didn't get a lot of meaningful shots in against the dual Aggressors you're running. That's not to say it was worth zero points, but the shuttle's cost would have to be factored into Palpatine's cost in this role.

-Aggressors are propably hit the hardest among meta lists by Palpatine, because every extra damage against them is quite meaningful, and their low number of dice mean the tuning ability Palpatine makes a bigger dent in the effect of dice (you've said as much yourself, though).

-Aggressors are pooly suited against this list because they are particularly vulnerable to the pair of positional aces that accompany Palpatine, and so need to go after them first so you can use blocking to make an ace more vulnerable. This makes Palpatine all the more valuable agaisnt Aggressors.

-You arguably won, or at least it was close, so Palpatine did not provide an overpowering benefit. I'm guessing by your play, you reduced the efficiency of the Aces by blocking and concentrating fire on them, but as a trade you increased the efficiency of Palpatine. Whatever lasts longest in a list will have the longest time to try and win its points back. This is the most significant factor, I think. I bet at least one of his aces, and maybe both (depending on time when called) was not close it its 35ish point figure of merit.

-On top of all this, Palpatine's efficiency is obviously list dependent. A beefy swarm-type list will roll lots of dice and force the Aces to roll lots of dice to degrade them, and as you've said in the past, Palpatine does not like it when lots of dice are rolled. Lots of cards in this game have very outsized effects against certain matchups. Vader Crew is monstrous against Stealth Device Interceptors, for example. Obsidian Squadron Pilots are a ridiculously good value against PS2 ships.

Let me put it another way. I assume you were flying your IG 88s? If you beat a list that got so many additional points out of Palpatine and still won, isn't your list overpowered, too? Maybe it's the combination of gunner+Fcs or the sharing of great abilities for free...

No, you would have to see the log. For half the combat rounds when dice were getting rolled neither of his Aces were getting any actions. Vader and Fel were both repeatedly actionless, and were getting shot at. And the game was still close - Palpatine crew kept him in the game.

There's no reason to think a different 29 points would have not kept him in the game either, though. You focused on the aces, leaving Palp free to do his thing. You can't cherry pick Palp's efficiency and say he's overpowered when your strategy in the game is to de-power the aces by blocking and killing them first. 30 points of lots of stuff will give you a hard time in its own way if it's left to its own devices.

Let me put it another way. I assume you were flying your IG 88s? If you beat a list that got so many additional points out of Palpatine and still won, isn't your list overpowered, too? Maybe it's the combination of gunner+Fcs or the sharing of great abilities for free...

No, you would have to see the log. For half the combat rounds when dice were getting rolled neither of his Aces were getting any actions. Vader and Fel were both repeatedly actionless, and were getting shot at. And the game was still close - Palpatine crew kept him in the game.

yet, it still costs you palps points PLUS the shuttle, as that is not really doing anything for the most part in most battles.

where C3P0 is an upgrade on a already useful part of your list which contributes immensely to the game (fat falcon), palp is an upgrade for something you don't use much other than maybe bumps or the occasional shot.

conner nets

utterly ruinous for poor Vader or Soontir

TLTs do okay

to be honest, the only practical experience I had came from facing it with my joke list of TLT + c3po Miranda, TLT + nets + slam + munis warden, and TLT + r2-d6 Goldie

Poor Vader really can't handle TLT, it seems, and after a range 3 exchange + a marvelous Warden U-turn into conner net, the dark lord was done.

the combination of guaranteed damage and action denial make Conner Net a death sentence against high value targets, palpie or no

I'd image panic attack is quite capable of causing fits as well

I'm wondering if a 7-8 TIE swarm would also be able to do alright. The Imperial Aces list relies on having fewer dice rolls, and only has 2-3 attacks per round.

being able to block like crazy helps

the problem is, as always, green dice. Fickleness cuts both ways, screwing you over and inordinately favoring the opponent for no discernible reason

Let me put it another way. I assume you were flying your IG 88s? If you beat a list that got so many additional points out of Palpatine and still won, isn't your list overpowered, too? Maybe it's the combination of gunner+Fcs or the sharing of great abilities for free...

No, you would have to see the log. For half the combat rounds when dice were getting rolled neither of his Aces were getting any actions. Vader and Fel were both repeatedly actionless, and were getting shot at. And the game was still close - Palpatine crew kept him in the game.

Maybe I would have to see the logs, but it seems like there were some good/bad dice involved here, too if he's able to live through a couple of FCS gunner HLCS with no actions.

Back to the more general concept, what I was getting at was that I bet you could parse good lists out the way you are doing with Palpatine and find they are gaining those kinds of points in the synergy between their cards, too, even if it isn't just one card. Fat Han was probably getting a lot of extra milage out of 3PO, Predator, and EU than just those 10 points, which are very close to the face value of the Emperor. Maybe a more straight forward example is Dash with the Outider Title, where we could track a game and see how many times Dash is getting two extra dice (with no range modifiers) outside of arc. I'd bet the value of that is well beyond 5 points.

I've always thought that 2IGs are getting a ton of synergy out of a couple of cards. There's the extra value out of just the title card, of course (how many extra evades and gunner shots/hits does that card alone generate?) along with ATs, which are even more effective on an 8 health ship than a three health ship.

I'd bet that broken down the same way based on the success that list has, we'd see dual IGs list getting at least a comparable amount of "extra points" in a game log, especially one played well.

But that's not a knock on that list. It's a characteristic of a good list and a good use of cards.

I know it is politically incorrect to call any card 'overpowered', but I am curious what would realistically deserve that label, if not Palpatine.

Considering his high cost, and the fact that you basically have to devote almost a 3rd of your list to a ship that people generally didn't use at all before, I don't think he's overpowered at all. You're basically spending 29 points for that ability, and that's a lot to spend for any ability, no matter how good it is.

Now, maybe if the TIE Shuttle comes out and actually has 2 Crew slots...

That is interesting, but my question is actually slightly different. I'm okay with assuming that Palpatine is not overpowered, but this does raise the question: what is? How do we know? If a single card can, mathematically, return its points cost in the amounts that MajorJuggler calculates, how do we judge that? What return is too much?

I think we need a much better frame of reference than we're currently getting (and maybe more than we can get). Someone would have to do this for a ton of games, not just for Palpatine but other powerful card combinations in the meta. As I've said in previous posts, I'm betting that cards gaining this kind of return in combination with other cards (either in whole lists or on ships) is probably not uncommon in top tier competitive lists.

I do think that combination aspect is key in this discussion since Palpatine has really only emerged in two archetypes: Decimator+Ace and Shuttle+2 Aces.

Let me put it another way. I assume you were flying your IG 88s? If you beat a list that got so many additional points out of Palpatine and still won, isn't your list overpowered, too? Maybe it's the combination of gunner+Fcs or the sharing of great abilities for free...

No, you would have to see the log. For half the combat rounds when dice were getting rolled neither of his Aces were getting any actions. Vader and Fel were both repeatedly actionless, and were getting shot at. And the game was still close - Palpatine crew kept him in the game.

yet, it still costs you palps points PLUS the shuttle, as that is not really doing anything for the most part in most battles.

where C3P0 is an upgrade on a already useful part of your list which contributes immensely to the game (fat falcon), palp is an upgrade for something you don't use much other than maybe bumps or the occasional shot.

Anyone who flies the shuttle doing nothing is also doing it wrong. While you shouldn't be charging your VIP passenger into combat, it's probably going to be unavoidable. And in those scenarios, you're still packing a potent space whale with three red dice and ten hit points that's among the best blockers in the game. The key to using it is knowing when to engage and when to stay out of the fight.

Re: the whole "what is overpowered and what isn't question":

You can't really judge whether something is overpowered or not by how much it costs or how much it's "worth" (which is going to be subjective anyway no matter how you swing it). That's looking at it the wrong way. You have to look at what impact it has on the game and the meta as a whole. For example, a TIE fighter with a pilot ability that reads "whenever you reveal your maneuver dial choose one of your opponent's ships. That ship is immediately destroyed." would be overpowered, even if it cost 100 points. The reason for that is not because it's "costed efficiently" but it makes it impossible (or near-impossible) for your opponent to win.

Based on that reasoning, I would say that we do not have and have not ever had any "OVERpowered" cards in the game, though we have come close with pre-nerf Phantoms and pre-wave-7 Fat Hans. We certainly have a lot of VERY powerful cards in the game, and Palpatine is definitely one of them, but there is nothing in the game right now that will guarantee you a tournament victory as long as you don't mirror match.

This is good.

I'm happy to see that my HOTH event yielded exactly what we wanted, same as last year. Excluding all the money that we raised for the UI Children's hospital (yada yada, who really cares, right? ) we had another fabulous test of pre-worlds strategies. Hothie had the stat, but something like 14 of the top 32 from last year's worlds played at HOTH. That's insane. I'd be curious how we do this year.

Now, running the event, and not actually playing, I did get to watch a lot of games closely. Things I discovered.

1: Palpmobile and aces is going to be big at worlds. Even if you don't believe in it, you'd better have an answer.

2: Brobots is not that answer.

3: VI Jax is real. when he's rolling with a good pilot maneuvering him, he can be a NIGHTMARE for aces.

4: Good players rise to the top with nearly any list, but that last little bit is where the meta has to be played.

So thank you to all the HOTH players. We doubled our charity from last year, and had a TON of extremely high end competition that should really flesh out at worlds.

Sunny

PS. Henry had a blast.

For example, a TIE fighter with a pilot ability that reads "whenever you reveal your maneuver dial choose one of your opponent's ships. That ship is immediately destroyed." would be overpowered, even if it cost 100 points. The reason for that is not because it's "costed efficiently" but it makes it impossible (or near-impossible) for your opponent to win.

Actually, I bet an 8 TIE swarm could handle that pretty easily.

You basically have 8 rounds to shoot down 1 TIE Fighter.

Let me put it another way. I assume you were flying your IG 88s? If you beat a list that got so many additional points out of Palpatine and still won, isn't your list overpowered, too? Maybe it's the combination of gunner+Fcs or the sharing of great abilities for free...

No, you would have to see the log. For half the combat rounds when dice were getting rolled neither of his Aces were getting any actions. Vader and Fel were both repeatedly actionless, and were getting shot at. And the game was still close - Palpatine crew kept him in the game.

yet, it still costs you palps points PLUS the shuttle, as that is not really doing anything for the most part in most battles.

where C3P0 is an upgrade on a already useful part of your list which contributes immensely to the game (fat falcon), palp is an upgrade for something you don't use much other than maybe bumps or the occasional shot.

Anyone who flies the shuttle doing nothing is also doing it wrong. While you shouldn't be charging your VIP passenger into combat, it's probably going to be unavoidable. And in those scenarios, you're still packing a potent space whale with three red dice and ten hit points that's among the best blockers in the game. The key to using it is knowing when to engage and when to stay out of the fight.

of course you're right; you got a shuttle, you use it. but just compare it to the turret of the falcon: you're not contributing every round, most of the time you're just flying around. the other guy doesn't just sit still and gets blown out of space by our beloved space cow.

again - I'm not saying the shuttle is useless - it is not. I'm just saying you can't compare palp' isolated as a card with 3p0 and simply state that it's better. you can't compare in a vacuum, you have to take into account the "taxi-tax".

and it is a tax; make the shuttle (with palp) too good and it's a points-sink - and dead in a heartbeat. keep it cheap, and it's just not -that- useful (the shuttle, not palp). the falcon by comparison is no tax and the "fatter" the better, so to speak.

I hope I made clearer what I was trying to say

So... Emperor or no, if I fly my ships well and the dice are on my side I can win? If I fly the emperor and get 3x his cost out of him so can still lose? Sounds pretty good to me.

If you were a terror with Vader and Soontir before you still will be. If you walked over Vader and Soontir before (who did that?) you'll have a less easy time now but still should win. I like to hear that Jax is finally coming into his own.

You can't really judge whether something is overpowered or not by how much it costs or how much it's "worth" (which is going to be subjective anyway no matter how you swing it). That's looking at it the wrong way.

The problem as I see it is the attitude that no card, unless it is absurdly OP, will ever be judged to be too powerful. You're clearly setting the bar for an OP card too high:

...there is nothing in the game right now that will guarantee you a tournament victory as long as you don't mirror match.

This is good.

Really? Do we have to wait for a card that will guarantee a tournament victory before we can use the term 'overpowered'? I'd say the word has well and truly become a sarcastic euphemism by the time we would have been cursed with such a ridiculous upgrade or pilot. Yes, it's good that there is no such card, but that isn't saying much. Far weaker cards deserve the qualification "overpowered" in my book.

Apparently, nothing is ever OP, or that is what I understand when reading the forum. Whisper wasn't OP, until the erratum! After the erratum, there does seem to be a reluctant consensus that the Phantom was, after all, a bit too powerful for its points. But I like to think that we don't need the judgement of the design team and can make up our minds about what works and what doesn't.

On another note, I think that claiming we cannot say anything about Palpatine because he is more or less effective in different builds, is a bit of a red herring. We don't judge PtL by how well it works on a bare Luke Skywalker. We look at the likes of Soontir Fel and Jake Farrell, where the card really makes sense. Same goes for Palpatine. If he is best next to aces, then that is how the card should be judged, not by accounting for some combo that few people will use anyway.

You can't really judge whether something is overpowered or not by how much it costs or how much it's "worth" (which is going to be subjective anyway no matter how you swing it). That's looking at it the wrong way.

I don't think this is a fair assessment of what the math does here. While there's probably no clear number in points return that objectively leads to the conclusion "overpowered", we can use the numbers as an indication that something is amiss. And we can also corroborate what we already suspected.

The problem as I see it is the attitude that no card, unless it is absurdly OP, will ever be judged to be too powerful. You're clearly setting the bar for an OP card too high:

...there is nothing in the game right now that will guarantee you a tournament victory as long as you don't mirror match.

This is good.

Really? Do we have to wait for a card that will guarantee a tournament victory before we can use the term 'overpowered'? I'd say the word has well and truly become a sarcastic euphemism by the time we would have been cursed with such a ridiculous upgrade or pilot. Yes, it's good that there is no such card, but that isn't saying much. Far weaker cards deserve the qualification "overpowered" in my book.

Apparently, nothing is ever OP, or that is what I understand when reading the forum. Whisper wasn't OP, until the erratum! After the erratum, there does seem to be a reluctant consensus that the Phantom was, after all, a bit too powerful for its points. But I like to think that we don't need the judgement of the design team and can make up our minds about what works and what doesn't.

On another note, I think that claiming we cannot say anything about Palpatine because he is more or less effective in different builds, is a bit of a red herring. We don't judge PtL by how well it works on a bare Luke Skywalker. We look at the likes of Soontir Fel and Jake Farrell, where the card really makes sense. Same goes for Palpatine. If he is best next to aces, then that is how the card should be judged, not by accounting for some combo that few people will use anyway.

First, I'm not sure where you were at the time, but there were concerns about the phantom day 1 from pretty upstanding members of the community throughout the next year until it was nerfed. There certainly was some noise because it had counters, but most people understood that it was strangling the meta (and frankly it's why I'm a bit taken aback by the fact that MJ seemed to hint that the PalpShuttle could be the same -- it's really not even close.)

My problem with the math here is what I mentioned earlier with regard to a point of reference. MJ's work is great but I'm not going to be surprised if other top tier lists generate that kind of synergy that make a card or cards worth thirty points. In particular, I'd be very curious to see what the zero point IG title nets the pair in terms of extra evades for B and extra hits for C from the gunner effect. As they proc more often on a more expensive ship, I'd assume that card is at least a comparable amount of value to the Emperor.

And the last point, I wasn't saying that we can "say anything" about Palpatine because he is really effective in two archetypes so far. My implication was that there was more going on than just the Emperor and that it's not him in isolation.

So... Emperor or no, if I fly my ships well and the dice are on my side I can win? If I fly the emperor and get 3x his cost out of him so can still lose? Sounds pretty good to me.

If you were a terror with Vader and Soontir before you still will be. If you walked over Vader and Soontir before (who did that?) you'll have a less easy time now but still should win. I like to hear that Jax is finally coming into his own.

I mean, I don't think we can assign a numerical value for "getting his points back". That phrase is just so obtuse because of just how many factors exist in this game such as skillful manuvevurs, prediction, asteroid placement, ship stats, raw dice, modified dice, you name it.

I think a better way to analyze the effectiveness of Emperor is how many active rolls he participated in modifying. Say he eventually goes down after 12 rounds surviving on the battlefield, but only 10 of those he played an active round in modifying dice. You essentially got 10 guaranteed evades/crits from blanks. That's the only way I can see something like this quantified.

My question is what would happen if you applied the same method of analysis MJ is using here to, say, a Recon Specialist on a Bounty Hunter. I doubt it would be as valuable as the Emperor, but I suspect you'd find that according to this method a lot of upgrades are going to be very valuable.

My question is what would happen if you applied the same method of analysis MJ is using here to, say, a Recon Specialist on a Bounty Hunter. I doubt it would be as valuable as the Emperor, but I suspect you'd find that according to this method a lot of upgrades are going to be very valuable.

Conversely, if you applied the same method to a PTL on Sooner Fel that you were actively blocking as a game strategy, it would make PTL on Soontir look like a bad card.