Neat results Jeff. I'll keep that in mind. Got any log files for any of those games?

Against Brobots, I run the shuttle like an offensive lineman: Its one and only objective is to block and reduce the shots its taking. HLCs tear through shuttles hilariously quickly unless you're running Jax+SJ...the true Palpmobile.

Neat results Jeff. I'll keep that in mind. Got any log files for any of those games?

I have the first one. I'll get it to you when I get home. My opponent has the second one (I forgot to make one), and I'll ask him for it.

EDIT: Actually, I forgot I submitted the first log via Gmail, so I can provide it now. Where would you like it?

Neat results Jeff. I'll keep that in mind. Got any log files for any of those games?

I have the first one. I'll get it to you when I get home. My opponent has the second one (I forgot to make one), and I'll ask him for it.

EDIT: Actually, I forgot I submitted the first log via Gmail, so I can provide it now. Where would you like it?

Awesome! PM sent.

Thanks!

Who would have thought that what is essentially the same list that was used in a preview article would have actually ended up being a top tier list?

Who would have thought that what is essentially the same list that was used in a preview article would have actually ended up being a top tier list?

Broken clocks, yadda yadda.

The obvious counter to this is 4 to 5 ships all shooting with preferably 3 attack dice. punch through the insane defense with more dice. I lost to the whisper/fel squad because I hard turned on soontir not thinking his Whisper would aggressively jump up. laid 2 damage on soontir with an ion but couldn't turn to finish him off. laid two stress on Whisper who then had to disengage to live and put everything into the shuttle but but couldn't drop it fast enough. By the time i turned back on soontir and Whisper i had two full BTL Y's but missed a key block on soontir by inches and just couldn't touch them after that. I think the attack the shuttle is right from the beginning. get behind it and put it facing the wrong way with the aces.

The obvious counter to this is 4 to 5 ships all shooting with preferably 3 attack dice. punch through the insane defense with more dice. I lost to the whisper/fel squad because I hard turned on soontir not thinking his Whisper would aggressively jump up. laid 2 damage on soontir with an ion but couldn't turn to finish him off. laid two stress on Whisper who then had to disengage to live and put everything into the shuttle but but couldn't drop it fast enough. By the time i turned back on soontir and Whisper i had two full BTL Y's but missed a key block on soontir by inches and just couldn't touch them after that. I think the attack the shuttle is right from the beginning. get behind it and put it facing the wrong way with the aces.

Easier said than done. Generally, a 4-5 ship list is all going to be in the PS2-4 range, so they're vulnerable to being arc-dodged unless you can set up some blocks. You're looking at things like BBBBZ or 5K, or maybe Panic Attack to deprive them of actions if you miss. Green dice with only Palpatine to modify them are going to fail spectacularly.

I suspect Sable's Murder of Crows squad (Mux with ICT & Greedo, 5x Black Sun Soldiers with FA) could do well against this squad. You're messing with the shooting order of the enemy's aces, and Feedback Array takes defense dice out of the equation.

Related: evaluation of Palpatine in real-world game.

Palpatine summary:

• Inflicted 3 damage on the same Zeta (PS3 4 hull TIE/FO)
• Inflicted 1 damage on enemy Fel
• Saved Kenkirk from 5 damage

Point values for each:

• Enemy Zeta: 16*(1-(1/4)^0.5) = 8
• Enemy Fel: 35*(1-(2/3)^0.5) = 6.4
• Kenkirk: (63-8)*((21/16)^0.5 - 1) = 8.0

Total value of the Emperor for this game: 22.4 points.

The Emperor costs 8 points. Outside of AutoThrusters, this is probably the best return on investment (points spent) that we have ever seen in the game of X-wing, and these results are not atypical.

The solution, I think, is to bring lots of ships and kill the thing quickly.

I do think you have to get the shuttle in on the action to have best results of winning. The few times I've beaten this type of list was when they kept the shuttle out of the fight for most of the game.

As much as I love how diverse the meta has become, it's still a meta, meaning they are all popular lists because there will always be some ships/pilots/upgrades that are clearly better than the rest for the cost. The emperor and multiple TLT's are just the latest.

I almost always try to kill the shuttle first. If you don't have bombs are mines it's very difficult to get hits through vs PS9-11 with AT, Evade tokens and or Palp flipping blanks into Evades. It depends on the list and your opponent. Some are greedy and use Palp on offense

The longer the shuttle stays alive, the more value Emperor will provide.

I actually the most difficult part is finding the initiative bid with the right ships. Any PS2 ship with 3 dice tears the Shuttle a new one, but locating it so you can cross deploy from it is another story.

The longer the shuttle stays alive, the more value Emperor will provide.

However, he gets less powerful the fewer ships your opponent has, and whatever he is protecting generally gets more powerful the less ships you have. If you just let the escorts rip into your flank while you go after the shuttle, you will likely find you don't have enough left to take them on after the shuttle goes down.

Yes, getting through all of the aces' defensive tokens and the Emperor is a tall order, but it's usually easier than taking on a healthy [insert Imperial ace of your choice here] in the end game.

Who would have thought that what is essentially the same list that was used in a preview article would have actually ended up being a top tier list?

Something about monkeys and typewriters, I believe. (or someone from the design team having a say for once)

Related: evaluation of Palpatine in real-world game. TCA week 7 Paul vs Morgan:

Palpatine summary:

• Inflicted 3 damage on the same Zeta (PS3 4 hull TIE/FO)
• Inflicted 1 damage on enemy Fel
• Saved Kenkirk from 5 damage

Point values for each:

• Enemy Zeta: 16*(1-(1/4)^0.5) = 8
• Enemy Fel: 35*(1-(2/3)^0.5) = 6.4
• Kenkirk: (63-8)*((21/16)^0.5 - 1) = 8.0

Total value of the Emperor for this game: 22.4 points.

The Emperor costs 8 points. Outside of AutoThrusters, this is probably the best return on investment (points spent) that we have ever seen in the game of X-wing, and these results are not atypical.

The solution, I think, is to bring lots of ships and kill the thing quickly.

First PWT's were the problem, now a flying brick with 2 aces... I'm just slightly amused.

First PWT's were the problem, now a flying brick with 2 aces... I'm just slightly amused.

Not much in this thread indicates that this builds existence is problematic, as far as i remember. Palpatine might be very strong, but he still is a "once per turn" upgrade with a huge cost attached. If this is the new meta, I wouldn't mind at all.

I know it is politically incorrect to call any card 'overpowered', but I am curious what would realistically deserve that label, if not Palpatine.

Considering his high cost, and the fact that you basically have to devote almost a 3rd of your list to a ship that people generally didn't use at all before, I don't think he's overpowered at all. You're basically spending 29 points for that ability, and that's a lot to spend for any ability, no matter how good it is.

Now, maybe if the TIE Shuttle comes out and actually has 2 Crew slots...

I know it is politically incorrect to call any card 'overpowered', but I am curious what would realistically deserve that label, if not Palpatine.

Considering his high cost, and the fact that you basically have to devote almost a 3rd of your list to a ship that people generally didn't use at all before, I don't think he's overpowered at all. You're basically spending 29 points for that ability, and that's a lot to spend for any ability, no matter how good it is.

Now, maybe if the TIE Shuttle comes out and actually has 2 Crew slots...

By definition, the ships in the winning squad have collectively provided greater return on investment than the ships in the opposing squad. The whole purpose of the game is to get your squad to have a good return on investment.

It's difficult to judge a single card, because even Palpatine has success predicated so heavily on his squad being in the right positions to make his ability matter.

It's difficult to judge a single card, because even Palpatine has success predicated so heavily on his squad being in the right positions to make his ability matter.

And the pilot of that squadron has to make the "correct" choice to use him on a given turn.

The key to getting maximum value out of Palpatine is knowing when to use him... and when NOT to. That is a skill not easily developed by reading a forum post or strategy article.

EDIT: This makes Palpatine one of those high skill floor/high skill ceiling type cards. He's a good card in the hands of just about anyone; in the hands of a skilled player, he's a scalpel waiting to cut the heart out of the opposing squad. =)

It's difficult to judge a single card, because even Palpatine has success predicated so heavily on his squad being in the right positions to make his ability matter.

And the pilot of that squadron has to make the "correct" choice to use him on a given turn.

The key to getting maximum value out of Palpatine is knowing when to use him... and when NOT to. That is a skill not easily developed by reading a forum post or strategy article.

EDIT: This makes Palpatine one of those high skill floor/high skill ceiling type cards. He's a good card in the hands of just about anyone; in the hands of a skilled player, he's a scalpel waiting to cut the heart out of the opposing squad. =)

And as Vorpal Sword pointed out, it takes a bit of luck, too. If the dice roll too extreme, his "extra" damage or hit point won't necessarily matter.

And as Vorpal Sword pointed out, it takes a bit of luck, too. If the dice roll too extreme, his "extra" damage or hit point won't necessarily matter.

Agreed. There will be times that he seems to have done you a favor, but ultimately it doesn't pan out quite that way simply due to subsequent dice rolls.

I know it is politically incorrect to call any card 'overpowered', but I am curious what would realistically deserve that label, if not Palpatine. I mean opposed to unrealistic suggestions like "action: destroy all your opponent's ships". What would the effect of a truly OP card be in terms of return investment?

Look in the direction of Howlrunner... If we consider that the Academy is correctly priced (and I think that MJ will agree with that), it costs you 6 points to field her. Let's say that going from VP1 to VP8 is worth 3pts on a Tie (a low estimate), then her ability is only worth 3pts.

Having Howl in range 1 increase the firepower of Tie fighters in a swarm by about 30% (depending on conditions). If she survives 3 turns, that means between 10 and 15 rerolls easily worth a lot more than 3 pts...

Autothrusters are also on the same level of efficiency.

However I don't think that any card is overpowered in a vacuum, and you cannot really judge a card simply on its return on investissement : look at Biggs for exemple. You need to analyse the whole list taken in its meta.

I know it is politically incorrect to call any card 'overpowered', but I am curious what would realistically deserve that label, if not Palpatine.

Considering his high cost, and the fact that you basically have to devote almost a 3rd of your list to a ship that people generally didn't use at all before, I don't think he's overpowered at all. You're basically spending 29 points for that ability, and that's a lot to spend for any ability, no matter how good it is.

What defines "high cost"? True, he is the most costly crew. But when that one crew is worth about 2 TIE Fighters, you will be more than happy to spend those 8 points on him. He is very inexpensive compared to the benefit that he provides.

By definition, the ships in the winning squad have collectively provided greater return on investment than the ships in the opposing squad. The whole purpose of the game is to get your squad to have a good return on investment.

It's difficult to judge a single card, because even Palpatine has success predicated so heavily on his squad being in the right positions to make his ability matter.

Ed and I played a game last night. We called the game when it was just my 4 HP 88C left vs his 9HP Palpmobile. If the game were timed, he would have a modified win on points 73-70. Untimed, I win on position, as his shuttle was not going to get another shot the rest of the game.

Palpatine was worth 33 points this game and he still lost (untimed). So, in this case he got a huge value out of Palpatine but still lost. Palpatine's effect single handedly kept him in the game.

We're going to review the TCA games to get some quantified breakdowns. Objectively speaking from just the cold hard facts, you have to conclude that Palpatine is overpowered - it is merely a question of "by how much". The answer falls somewhere in the range of "he is an extremely good value like C-3P0 is", to "the entire metagame now revolves around this one card like pre-nerf Whisper in wave 4."

Unfortunately propagating the truth at this point will just convince everyone to run it at Worlds, which means I will do far worse next week as I am running BroBots. ha ha. Oh well. Or maybe everyone will figure out its counter and run that instead. (5 ship rebels with a sprinkling of TLT? Or maybe 8 TIE Fighters?)