Based on that analysis, MJ, it seems like it makes sense to gun for the shuttle first. You want to make Palpatine spend his ability defensively on the shuttle, which is the least efficient way possible. The fewer times you give him a chance to give an HP to an ace, the better.

It depends on the matchup. If you are flying a swarm, then that probably makes sense, because you can burn it down in 1-2 turns. If you are flying BroBots, then going after the shuttle is almost certain suicide. One of your IGs is likely to be dead before the Shuttle is.

I'll also throw out there that Juke will be amazing on Vader since he'll likely shoot first.

So lets look at a typical example of how much "value" that he provides:

• Prevent 1 damage on Vader
• Prevent 1 damage on Fel
• Prevent 1 damage on Shuttle
• Add 1 damage onto an IG-88

I want to mention a caveat to your analysis: in my experience, Palpatine only looks like this with good play. If you use him on the first attack in the round, and your target is able to evade the damage, you've lost a round's worth of value on Palpatine.

Using Palpatine to prevent damage is less likely to be wasted, since you can see the attack roll before you activate him. But even that is subject to judgment calls: do I use it to dodge one point of damage against Vader's shields now, or do I hold on to it in case someone sneaks a crit through against Fel? And then there's the issue of overkill: if Palpatine prevents a point of damage to Vader on Round 3, but Vader is killed with an extra point of damage left over on Round 4, then the net effect of that "saved" point is 0.

I'm sure you're aware of how much variability there is in the figures you're working out here. But it might be worth pointing out to everyone reading that Palpatine can be worth a great deal... but in any particular match his value depends on how you play him, on the matchup, and on a couple of other even more random factors.

Based on that analysis, MJ, it seems like it makes sense to gun for the shuttle first. You want to make Palpatine spend his ability defensively on the shuttle, which is the least efficient way possible. The fewer times you give him a chance to give an HP to an ace, the better.

As an aside, this kind of makes me like the 4x Blue Squadron Novice with R2 and Integrated Astromech that I've been pondering a little bit in this matchup. It's got the firepower to kill the shuttle quickly, the mobility to chase it down, and the hit points and shields to tank the aces and their autocrits while it does it.

I see the point here about MJs math but this is much harder to do than one would think. it's not as simple as choosing an option from menu A, B, or C. Played well, going after the shuttle in this list means you will likely be allowing the aces unfettered shots of their choosing for at least two rounds with full pressure on offense. With the ability to use their tokens just on offense, turn one blank into a crit from palpatine, and support from the shuttle (let's say for two rounds), you'd likely find yourself down a ship (or even) two and in terrible position relative to the aces at the time palpatine was removed from the board.

That's the challenge with this list. Target priority forces you to choose between letting Palpatine work longer than you'd like or putting yourself in an endgame that you don't really want.

Palp lists typically run Vader/Fel/Jax. Those are the three aces that make the list work.

Information in the first post seems to disagree with you.

I guess if Soontir's running really light.

Imagine that, an upgrade card that requires skills to use.

So lets look at a typical example of how much "value" that he provides:

• Prevent 1 damage on Vader
• Prevent 1 damage on Fel
• Prevent 1 damage on Shuttle
• Add 1 damage onto an IG-88

I want to mention a caveat to your analysis: in my experience, Palpatine only looks like this with good play. If you use him on the first attack in the round, and your target is able to evade the damage, you've lost a round's worth of value on Palpatine.

I only plan for playing against good players. Using Palpatine on offense when I have focused gunner attacks coming up on Fel or Vader would be extremely bad play. If I encounter such bad play next week at Worlds, then it will only be in an early round, or after I have already lost 2 games.

It is matchup dependent, but in general against a low ship count list, all you have to do is use Palpatine on defense the first 2 rounds and he has already paid for himself. I'm something around 8 games in testing Palp / Vader / Fel vs BroBots. In all games played Palp is easily worth 10 points, without exception. The range in my experience is around 10 - 25 points, with an average of roughly 15. There are four TCA matches that I will go back and analyze later to get some non-BroBots matchups.

Vs BroBots, Palpatine is easily worth his points if you use him on defense to stop hits on Vader or Fel. Save one damage on Fel, and one damage on Vader, and he has easily already paid for himself.

Based on that analysis, MJ, it seems like it makes sense to gun for the shuttle first. You want to make Palpatine spend his ability defensively on the shuttle, which is the least efficient way possible. The fewer times you give him a chance to give an HP to an ace, the better.

As an aside, this kind of makes me like the 4x Blue Squadron Novice with R2 and Integrated Astromech that I've been pondering a little bit in this matchup. It's got the firepower to kill the shuttle quickly, the mobility to chase it down, and the hit points and shields to tank the aces and their autocrits while it does it.

This depends greatly on how the shuttle deploys and who has initiative in the match.

One of my usual preferred deployments for Palpmobiles is a 45 degree angle in the corner, with one of the aces positioned to block him if he does a 1-forward. This is followed by a hard stop on round 2, meaning I don't even have to move the shuttle out of the corner until round 3. By that point, you've already been engaged by my aces. If you really want to charge into the corner to take out Palpatine, you'll have to do it with both of them on your tail and with somewhat restricted maneuvering options.

So lets look at a typical example of how much "value" that he provides:

• Prevent 1 damage on Vader
• Prevent 1 damage on Fel
• Prevent 1 damage on Shuttle
• Add 1 damage onto an IG-88

I want to mention a caveat to your analysis: in my experience, Palpatine only looks like this with good play. If you use him on the first attack in the round, and your target is able to evade the damage, you've lost a round's worth of value on Palpatine.

I only plan for playing against good players. Using Palpatine on offense when I have focused gunner attacks coming up on Fel or Vader would be extremely bad play. If I encounter such bad play next week at Worlds, then it will only be in an early round, or after I have already lost 2 games.

It is matchup dependent, but in general against a low ship count list, all you have to do is use Palpatine on defense the first 2 rounds and he has already paid for himself. I'm something around 8 games in testing Palp / Vader / Fel vs BroBots. In all games played Palp is easily worth 10 points, without exception. The range in my experience is around 10 - 25 points, with an average of roughly 15. There are four TCA matches that I will go back and analyze later to get some non-BroBots matchups.

Vs BroBots, Palpatine is easily worth his points if you use him on defense to stop hits on Vader or Fel. Save one damage on Fel, and one damage on Vader, and he has easily already paid for himself.

One thing missing, and maybe it's not an issue since Palpatine is just that good is that Palpatine is 8 points + an extra crew slot. It probably affects a decimator more (where you can't take Isard+Gunner with Palpatine), but that opportunity cost may be worth something.

One thing missing, and maybe it's not an issue since Palpatine is just that good is that Palpatine is 8 points + an extra crew slot. It probably affects a decimator more (where you can't take Isard+Gunner with Palpatine), but that opportunity cost may be worth something.

It makes the assumption that the ship that Palpatine is on was already worth whatever points were dumped into it before filling it with Palpatine crew. The shuttle makes a great carrier because you're not going to fill both crew slots anyway.

Based on that analysis, MJ, it seems like it makes sense to gun for the shuttle first. You want to make Palpatine spend his ability defensively on the shuttle, which is the least efficient way possible. The fewer times you give him a chance to give an HP to an ace, the better.

As an aside, this kind of makes me like the 4x Blue Squadron Novice with R2 and Integrated Astromech that I've been pondering a little bit in this matchup. It's got the firepower to kill the shuttle quickly, the mobility to chase it down, and the hit points and shields to tank the aces and their autocrits while it does it.

This depends greatly on how the shuttle deploys and who has initiative in the match.

One of my usual preferred deployments for Palpmobiles is a 45 degree angle in the corner, with one of the aces positioned to block him if he does a 1-forward. This is followed by a hard stop on round 2, meaning I don't even have to move the shuttle out of the corner until round 3. By that point, you've already been engaged by my aces. If you really want to charge into the corner to take out Palpatine, you'll have to do it with both of them on your tail and with somewhat restricted maneuvering options.

You can get more ridicioulus than that with the stalling. Have the ace positioned in such a way that you fly in front of the Shuttle with a one turn and do the stop on the first turn. On the second turn the Shuttle takes a one green and bumps, effectively staying in place. Then you ace moves away. If required, you can then do another stop, staying in your starting position for three consecutive turns. The third stop sometimes will be too much, though, so don't insist on doing that just because it is cool.

Based on that analysis, MJ, it seems like it makes sense to gun for the shuttle first. You want to make Palpatine spend his ability defensively on the shuttle, which is the least efficient way possible. The fewer times you give him a chance to give an HP to an ace, the better.

As an aside, this kind of makes me like the 4x Blue Squadron Novice with R2 and Integrated Astromech that I've been pondering a little bit in this matchup. It's got the firepower to kill the shuttle quickly, the mobility to chase it down, and the hit points and shields to tank the aces and their autocrits while it does it.

I see the point here about MJs math but this is much harder to do than one would think. it's not as simple as choosing an option from menu A, B, or C. Played well, going after the shuttle in this list means you will likely be allowing the aces unfettered shots of their choosing for at least two rounds with full pressure on offense. With the ability to use their tokens just on offense, turn one blank into a crit from palpatine, and support from the shuttle (let's say for two rounds), you'd likely find yourself down a ship (or even) two and in terrible position relative to the aces at the time palpatine was removed from the board.

That's the challenge with this list. Target priority forces you to choose between letting Palpatine work longer than you'd like or putting yourself in an endgame that you don't really want.

Certainly. That's why you play the game.

So lets look at a typical example of how much "value" that he provides:

• Prevent 1 damage on Vader
• Prevent 1 damage on Fel
• Prevent 1 damage on Shuttle
• Add 1 damage onto an IG-88

I want to mention a caveat to your analysis: in my experience, Palpatine only looks like this with good play. If you use him on the first attack in the round, and your target is able to evade the damage, you've lost a round's worth of value on Palpatine.

I only plan for playing against good players...

It is matchup dependent, but in general against a low ship count list, all you have to do is use Palpatine on defense the first 2 rounds and he has already paid for himself.

Agreed on both points. 2-ship lists should, IMO, be more terrified of Palpatine shuttles than they are of TLT (and they should be plenty scared of TLT), and you don't plan to play against bad people.

I was speaking in more general terms. Threepio works on one point of damage per round, and you just guess 0. It's virtually guaranteed, and takes very little consideration to get the maximum value out of him. I don't want anyone to read your post and think "Wow, Palpatine is fantastically powerful!" and then have an experience that doesn't match that expectation.

I guess what I'm saying is that (again) Palpatine really is powerful, but you'll have a hard time accessing his best effects unless you're prepared to think carefully and logically about when to use him and when to hold off.

You can get more ridicioulus than that with the stalling. Have the ace positioned in such a way that you fly in front of the Shuttle with a one turn and do the stop on the first turn. On the second turn the Shuttle takes a one green and bumps, effectively staying in place. Then you ace moves away. If required, you can then do another stop, staying in your starting position for three consecutive turns. The third stop sometimes will be too much, though, so don't insist on doing that just because it is cool.

You can, but there's a risk in this with your aces. You're keeping one of them back to create the stall, which could allow your opponent to try and focus down the other one. You could try to keep both aces together, but that makes you a bit more predictable once the engagement begins.

The corner deployment is also useful for another reason: it gives you the most information on where you actually need to go with the shuttle once combat begins, and you can bank left or right to capitalize on that.

You can get more ridicioulus than that with the stalling. Have the ace positioned in such a way that you fly in front of the Shuttle with a one turn and do the stop on the first turn. On the second turn the Shuttle takes a one green and bumps, effectively staying in place. Then you ace moves away. If required, you can then do another stop, staying in your starting position for three consecutive turns. The third stop sometimes will be too much, though, so don't insist on doing that just because it is cool.

You can, but there's a risk in this with your aces. You're keeping one of them back to create the stall, which could allow your opponent to try and focus down the other one. You could try to keep both aces together, but that makes you a bit more predictable once the engagement begins.

The corner deployment is also useful for another reason: it gives you the most information on where you actually need to go with the shuttle once combat begins, and you can bank left or right to capitalize on that.

You can do this by setting up at 45°, but yes, it isn't always the best option for setup. There are situations where you can gain a lot from it, though, which makes a usefull trick in your arsenal.

Depending on where the asteroids are, there is something to be said about slow playing a shuttle down the middle too. It makes it much easier for your two aces to flank the two sides. Now your opponent really has to pick who they are going after first, and then it becomes easy to react to this.

I am really hesitant to put a Shuttle anywhere but the sides, since it gets so hard to turn around, especially without EU, as you would run to keep the Palpmobil cheap. But sure, you should never ever deal in absolutes, that weakens your overal strength.

So lets look at a typical example of how much "value" that he provides:

• Prevent 1 damage on Vader
• Prevent 1 damage on Fel
• Prevent 1 damage on Shuttle
• Add 1 damage onto an IG-88

I want to mention a caveat to your analysis: in my experience, Palpatine only looks like this with good play. If you use him on the first attack in the round, and your target is able to evade the damage, you've lost a round's worth of value on Palpatine.

I only plan for playing against good players...

It is matchup dependent, but in general against a low ship count list, all you have to do is use Palpatine on defense the first 2 rounds and he has already paid for himself.

Agreed on both points. 2-ship lists should, IMO, be more terrified of Palpatine shuttles than they are of TLT (and they should be plenty scared of TLT), and you don't plan to play against bad people.

I was speaking in more general terms. Threepio works on one point of damage per round, and you just guess 0. It's virtually guaranteed, and takes very little consideration to get the maximum value out of him. I don't want anyone to read your post and think "Wow, Palpatine is fantastically powerful!" and then have an experience that doesn't match that expectation.

I guess what I'm saying is that (again) Palpatine really is powerful, but you'll have a hard time accessing his best effects unless you're prepared to think carefully and logically about when to use him and when to hold off.

Funny, I was just talking about this with someone else and that I thought that the Palpshuttle was actually a bigger hit to two ship lists than either TLTs or the MoV change.

Palp lists typically run Vader/Fel/Jax. Those are the three aces that make the list work.

Information in the first post seems to disagree with you.

I guess if Soontir's running really light.

I've seen Vader run well at 30-31 points, too, though I prefer him with engine.

Palp lists typically run Vader/Fel/Jax. Those are the three aces that make the list work.

Information in the first post seems to disagree with you.

I guess if Soontir's running really light.

I've seen Vader run well at 30-31 points, too, though I prefer him with engine.

Do you mean Vader/Whisper?

I thought the OP said Fel/Whisper with the shuttle. That would indicate that Fel is running without SD.

Palp lists typically run Vader/Fel/Jax. Those are the three aces that make the list work.

Information in the first post seems to disagree with you.

I guess if Soontir's running really light.

I've seen Vader run well at 30-31 points, too, though I prefer him with engine.

Do you mean Vader/Whisper?

I thought the OP said Fel/Whisper with the shuttle. That would indicate that Fel is running without SD.

Fel had ptl and autothrusters. Whisper had vi, acd, fcs. Leaves 29 points for the shuttle.

Do you mean Vader/Whisper?

I thought the OP said Fel/Whisper with the shuttle. That would indicate that Fel is running without SD.

I probably quoted the wrong post of yours (where you just listed the three), but I was speaking more generally that a 39 point Whisper you can still pair a minimalistic ATC Vader (for a 1pt bid) or VI +Palp Shuttle. If one is willing to give up FCS on Whisper, a lot of options open up for that second ace.

Based on that analysis, MJ, it seems like it makes sense to gun for the shuttle first. You want to make Palpatine spend his ability defensively on the shuttle, which is the least efficient way possible. The fewer times you give him a chance to give an HP to an ace, the better.

As an aside, this kind of makes me like the 4x Blue Squadron Novice with R2 and Integrated Astromech that I've been pondering a little bit in this matchup. It's got the firepower to kill the shuttle quickly, the mobility to chase it down, and the hit points and shields to tank the aces and their autocrits while it does it.

This depends greatly on how the shuttle deploys and who has initiative in the match.

One of my usual preferred deployments for Palpmobiles is a 45 degree angle in the corner, with one of the aces positioned to block him if he does a 1-forward. This is followed by a hard stop on round 2, meaning I don't even have to move the shuttle out of the corner until round 3. By that point, you've already been engaged by my aces. If you really want to charge into the corner to take out Palpatine, you'll have to do it with both of them on your tail and with somewhat restricted maneuvering options.

Edit - AS MANY OTHER PEOPLE HAVE SAID. I tend to 2-forward with Soonts then BR for the bump rather than turn him in and restrict his movement the following turn, though.

Weird.

I've played Brobots against Palpatine's Uber five times so far. I'm 2-3. If the games were all timed (the last two were not), I would be 3-2.

I lost the first one because I tried to burn down the aces first. I just didn't know better.

I lost the second one, likely because I failed to kill a 1 HP shuttle with an HLC shot that missed ... followed by another HLC shot that missed.

I won the third one handily, because I took out the shuttle first.

I won the fourth one, barely, despite being beaten (per Lady Luck) in every dice category, because I took out the shuttle, and flew better than I'd ever flown the list before. (This was a 3.5 hour VASSAL game. I would have won quite handily if it were a timed game.)

I lost the fifth one, yesterday, because I simply could not get the final 1 HP on Soontir or Vader. I had chances ... in two places, I had a 75% chance to kill the ship, and failed to do so. At the end of a 4.5 hour marathon, I was exhausted and playing sloppily. (If it were a timed game, I would have won a modified win, 31-24.)

I think even with Brobots' two guns, you burn the Shuttle down first. It is so difficult to get the aces in arc, you simply can't let Palpatine defend them when you do (and in the meantime give them extra punch through your AGI.) You just can't.

Keep in mind that in the first round of firing on the shuttle, you're likely not going to be taking heavy fire from the aces. All too often we forget to think about things from the other side ... your opponent does not want to hang his aces out to dry if your move toward the shuttle is a feint. Once he knows for sure the shuttle is your target, he'll come in hard, and you'll take fire, but at that point the shuttle should be half-destroyed.