Palp lists typically run Vader/Fel/Jax. Those are the three aces that make the list work.

Information in the first post seems to disagree with you.

I've run any combination of Jax, Whisper, Echo, Vader, Fel, Strom, and even a Sigma all with pretty good results.

It's a good list. Not unbeatable, but then again, nothing with Soontir is easy to beat.

I like that there finally is a non two ship list that uses Interceptors really well. It has such an amazing Return of the Jedi vibe to it. Haven't played it/against it, yet, but I am looking forward to that!

Palp+Vader+Jax, what are people buying as EPTs?

VI on Vader and Jax seems overkill, but possibly necessary overkill!

Jax wants, like any Interceptor. PTL. PS 8 isn't that much of a disadvantage, even on an Interceptor, since his ability does make him usefull, even when he doesn't get to shoot, as long as you are in range. Vader is good with VI. Predator is an option, but with Palpatine in the back it isn't neccessary.

Jax is a Squint, therefore he gets PtL. Vader is more open; I'm partial to Predator, as it turns him into an absolute beast on offence (and allows Palpatine to be used on the less-consistent Squint), but I've also seen VI, Crack Shot and Lone Wolf used to success.

Great suggestions guys: I hadn't considered PTL on anyone except Fel. Will have to shuffle some points around.

Seems to me that Jax may take more skill than Fel, to keep within range 1.

Great suggestions guys: I hadn't considered PTL on anyone except Fel. Will have to shuffle some points around.

Seems to me that Jax may take more skill than Fel, to keep within range 1.

Don't force him into range 1, its dangerous there, only go there when you are sure not to be shot at. Range 3 is preferable because of Autothrusters.

Hmm... If I'm going to be at range 3, I'd rather have Fel than Jax... The agony of choice! Love the current meta.

Jax wants, like any Interceptor. PTL. PS 8 isn't that much of a disadvantage, even on an Interceptor,

It is a huge disadvantage in a mirror match. Fel and engine vader will get out of range 1, or whisper will get into range 1 to vape Jax in one turn, then cloak.

Jax is a Squint, therefore he gets PtL.

Therefore, I will beat you with VI Jax.

I ran VI Jax on Saturday. Round 4 I boosted into range 1 of Fel. Dead Fel. In 6 rounds, the only game I lost Jax in was the very last game. Howlrunner unmodified range 3 through an asteroid, 2v5 with Autothrusters. Howl 2 hits, Jax 4 blanks and an eye with 1 hull left. I played the odds and lost Jax in that game (still won the game with Vader), but Jax was a star all day, and without ptl.

You guys can run ptl Jax, please do. I'll be running VI Jax to counter your aces.

^ as a proponent of VI Jax and a 100% open Interceptor dial, I heartily agree.

I have smoked so many Fel's and Vaders in mirror matches that I now do not fly the Palp-Shuttle without him.

Jax wants, like any Interceptor. PTL. PS 8 isn't that much of a disadvantage, even on an Interceptor,

It is a huge disadvantage in a mirror match. Fel and engine vader will get out of range 1, or whisper will get into range 1 to vape Jax in one turn, then cloak.

Jax is a Squint, therefore he gets PtL.

Therefore, I will beat you with VI Jax.

I ran VI Jax on Saturday. Round 4 I boosted into range 1 of Fel. Dead Fel. In 6 rounds, the only game I lost Jax in was the very last game. Howlrunner unmodified range 3 through an asteroid, 2v5 with Autothrusters. Howl 2 hits, Jax 4 blanks and an eye with 1 hull left. I played the odds and lost Jax in that game (still won the game with Vader), but Jax was a star all day, and without ptl.

You guys can run ptl Jax, please do. I'll be running VI Jax to counter your aces.

What lists did you end up facing? I can see where taking a VI Jax makes him an ace killer, but I'd imagine it makes him much weaker against lists where the VI ends up as wasted points.

as a non-ace player, I would prepare every single one of my "well, you trusted the green dice; what did you expect?" lines when facing a V.I Jax

as a non-ace player, I would prepare every single one of my "well, you trusted the green dice; what did you expect?" lines when facing a V.I Jax

Well, you don't spend 29 points on including the emperor because you trust dice...

VI Vader > VI Jax > 2 ps9

But all of the points spent countering other aces are generally wasted against a lot of other list archetypes.

as a non-ace player, I would prepare every single one of my "well, you trusted the green dice; what did you expect?" lines when facing a V.I Jax

Well, you don't spend 29 points on including the emperor because you trust dice...

And you still have Autothrusters and Hull or Shield upgrade on top of that if you want.

as a non-ace player, I would prepare every single one of my "well, you trusted the green dice; what did you expect?" lines when facing a V.I Jax

Well, you don't spend 29 points on including the emperor because you trust dice...

And you still have Autothrusters and Hull or Shield upgrade on top of that if you want.

y'all being incredibly lenient on green dice

only one die result per round + one blank to evade?

spare the rod, spoil the child

leave no stone unturned; no mod unused !

to defeat the whimsy of greendice, you must send in Palpie, thrusters, focus, evades, arc-dodging

(and they'll probably still find a way to **** you over)

I think the biggest weakness of the list is the low firepower. You generally don't use the shuttle's attack very often until the late game...

In which case, IMO, you're doing it wrong. The shuttle not only comes with three attack dice but also makes an excellent blocker. And because it fires late in the rotation, it's a great place to use aPalpatine if his effect hasn't been needed somewhere else.

As I prefer to run the list, it gets a couple of attacks on approach and then arrives at the merge just in time to block an opposing ship or two. If that makes Palpatine vulnerable, that's fine: the Omicron can tank an acceptable amount of incoming fire before it dies, and that's 2-3 rounds where your opponent isn't paying attention to your aces. Those early shots are going to pay off, especially with Palpatine as insurance against bad attack dice.

Jax wants, like any Interceptor. PTL. PS 8 isn't that much of a disadvantage, even on an Interceptor,

It is a huge disadvantage in a mirror match. Fel and engine vader will get out of range 1, or whisper will get into range 1 to vape Jax in one turn, then cloak.

I've been playing around with it, actually. My competition list right now (I have one, these days!) is currently Soontir/Shadow Squadron+Sensor Jammer/Omicron+Palpatine, but I figured out I can also comfortably run VI Jax and Echo instead. I'm sort of looking forward to this:

Oooh, Kallus on the Phantom is mean. I love it.

Jax wants, like any Interceptor. PTL. PS 8 isn't that much of a disadvantage, even on an Interceptor,

It is a huge disadvantage in a mirror match. Fel and engine vader will get out of range 1, or whisper will get into range 1 to vape Jax in one turn, then cloak.

Jax is a Squint, therefore he gets PtL.

Therefore, I will beat you with VI Jax.

I ran VI Jax on Saturday. Round 4 I boosted into range 1 of Fel. Dead Fel. In 6 rounds, the only game I lost Jax in was the very last game. Howlrunner unmodified range 3 through an asteroid, 2v5 with Autothrusters. Howl 2 hits, Jax 4 blanks and an eye with 1 hull left. I played the odds and lost Jax in that game (still won the game with Vader), but Jax was a star all day, and without ptl.

You guys can run ptl Jax, please do. I'll be running VI Jax to counter your aces.

What lists did you end up facing? I can see where taking a VI Jax makes him an ace killer, but I'd imagine it makes him much weaker against lists where the VI ends up as wasted points.

Round 1: VI Poe, Ptl wedge, and 2 bandits(W100-36)

Round 2: VI corran, blue, bandit, bandit.(W100-18)

Round 3:Whisper, oicunn (W100-68)

Round 4:Fel, VI Turr, Jax (W100-0)

Round 5:Fel, Whisper, Palpmobile (Lost to piqsid 68-35)

Round 6:Howl and BSP Crack Shot swarm (W 100-68)

Jax was a star all day long.

Jax wants, like any Interceptor. PTL. PS 8 isn't that much of a disadvantage, even on an Interceptor,

It is a huge disadvantage in a mirror match. Fel and engine vader will get out of range 1, or whisper will get into range 1 to vape Jax in one turn, then cloak.

Jax is a Squint, therefore he gets PtL.

Therefore, I will beat you with VI Jax.

I ran VI Jax on Saturday. Round 4 I boosted into range 1 of Fel. Dead Fel. In 6 rounds, the only game I lost Jax in was the very last game. Howlrunner unmodified range 3 through an asteroid, 2v5 with Autothrusters. Howl 2 hits, Jax 4 blanks and an eye with 1 hull left. I played the odds and lost Jax in that game (still won the game with Vader), but Jax was a star all day, and without ptl.

You guys can run ptl Jax, please do. I'll be running VI Jax to counter your aces.

What lists did you end up facing? I can see where taking a VI Jax makes him an ace killer, but I'd imagine it makes him much weaker against lists where the VI ends up as wasted points.

Round 1: VI Poe, Ptl wedge, and 2 bandits(W100-36)

Round 2: VI corran, blue, bandit, bandit.(W100-18)

Round 3:Whisper, oicunn (W100-68)

Round 4:Fel, VI Turr, Jax (W100-0)

Round 5:Fel, Whisper, Palpmobile (Lost to piqsid 68-35)

Round 6:Howl and BSP Crack Shot swarm (W 100-68)

Jax was a star all day long.

Thanks. I could certainly see where he would be against most of those lists, and if that's what the meta is, I could see him working out. The exception is that last list, but I'm not surprised you made it work out.

The core issue is that Palpatine pairs VERY well with high-value Ace ships, and so he is easily worth his 8 points in most matchups. The less shots there are on the board, the more powerful he becomes. So against something like BroBots, he becomes extremely good. Conversely, he generally doesn't want to see swarms, because he can only deflect one attack out of many.

So how many points is he worth? The fundamental rule of point values is that the value of a unit is roughly proportional to the square root of its combat figure of merit. The combat figure of merit includes both the unit's jousting value, and all of its intangibles. Therefore this approximation is completely agnostic of what the ships' jousting values are. It 100% does not matter: you simply start with a ship that is "worth" some number of points, and then increase or decrease its net value according to Palpatine.

This means that if you double the unit's expected damage output or expected durability, then the value will increase by the square root of 2. This same approach can be used to quantify the value of C-3P0. As a reference point, C-3P0 used on a 64 point Fat Han (worth 61 points without C-3P0) called 4 times is worth:

61*( ((13 + 4*5/8)/13)^0.5 -1) = 5.6 points --> 2.6 points of extra value.

So C-3P0 generally translates to an extra free value of 1.2 points (3 uses) to 5.2 points (6 uses). By comparison, Palpatine can easily provide an extra 10 points of free value. (we'll get to the numbers in a moment).

So lets look at a typical example of how much "value" that he provides:

• Prevent 1 damage on Vader
• Prevent 1 damage on Fel
• Prevent 1 damage on Shuttle
• Add 1 damage onto an IG-88

So in this case Palpatine is used 4 times, three to prevent damage (one on each ship), and once to push a crit through to an IG-88. We will conservatively assume for the moment that it only pushes a hit through to shields, and not a crit. We will assume that baseline Fel, Vader, Shuttle (without Palpatine), and IG88 are each "worth" 35, 34, 21, and 50 points respectively. We can get into debates about certain ships being worth more or less than their printed cost, but for now lets just say that each ship's printed cost is "fair".

So, how much is Palpatine's effect on each ship worth?

• Fel: goes from 3 hit points to 4, so his new value is: 35*(4/3)^0.5 = 40.4. This is a value of 5.4 points*.
• Vader: goes from 5 hit points to 6, so his new value is: 34*(6/5)^0.5 = 37.2. Value: 3.2 points.
• Shuttle: goes from 10 hit points to 11, so new value (excluding Palpatine) is: 21*(11/10)^0.5 = 22.0. Value: 1 point.
• IG88: goes from 8 hit points to 7, so new value is: 50*(7/8)^0.5 = 46.7. Value in favor of Imperial player: 3.3 points**.

Total value = 12.9. In this example Palpatine costs 8 points, and is worth about 13 points, so you're getting 5 points of added value.

* Fel's durability is non-linear because of Stealth Device, so if Palpatine prevents Stealth Device from getting discarded then 5.4 points is actually a conservative under-estimate.

** If Palpatine adds a crit on offense not a hit, then this is worth even more.

Here is another example, this time from an actual game I played recently. It's essentially the same as above but Fel was saved from 3 damage.

• Fel: saved from 3 damage. Added value = 35*((6/3)^0.5-1) = 14.5.
• Vader: saved from 1 damage. Added value = 34*((6/5)^0.5-1) = 3.2.
• Shuttle saved from 1 damage. 21*((11/10)^0.5-1) = 1.0.
• IG88 takes 1 crit (incidentally a kill shot to take it off the board before it fired). Added value > 50*(1 - (7/8)^0.5) = 3.2.

Total value: 21.9 points, an extra "free" value of 13.9 points. The Shuttle with the Emperor almost paid for itself without even needing to fire a single shot.

I think the biggest weakness of the list is the low firepower.

The relative firepower can vary dramatically base on what squad it is matched up against and the opportunities and skill of the Aces player to get in range 1. Speaking from repeated first hand experience, once the Aces get into range 1, a full health IG88 will die in two rounds, before it can shoot the second round. There are times to use the Emperor defensively, and there are times to use the Emperor offensively. If Fel and Vader are both at range 1 of a full health IG88 and the Emperor can be used on offense, then expect the IG88 to be at 4-5 health just from those 2 attacks with average dice on both sides. Add a range 1 shuttle and you'll almost certainly be at 3 hull. I have been in this situation a few times in my testing, and I have seen the green dice go bad, leaving the IG at between 1 and 3 hull even before the shuttle fires.
Next round the IG is dead.

So, the firepower is actually very good in the right matchups. In my playtesting, when the IGs lose it is almost always decided by the 2nd round of dice rolling. The Aces kill things extremely quickly.

An interesting playstyle. I wish there were video! I think the trick is getting the shuttle into the fight for its dice, and getting the fight decided before it needs to turn around.

Out of 6 tournament games only one went to time which actually was a carbon copy of fel/vader/palpmobile. But my playstyle includes shuttle not running away or sitting still, it includes the shuttle to dive into the action and provide fire support and if possible blocking.

Based on that analysis, MJ, it seems like it makes sense to gun for the shuttle first. You want to make Palpatine spend his ability defensively on the shuttle, which is the least efficient way possible. The fewer times you give him a chance to give an HP to an ace, the better.

As an aside, this kind of makes me like the 4x Blue Squadron Novice with R2 and Integrated Astromech that I've been pondering a little bit in this matchup. It's got the firepower to kill the shuttle quickly, the mobility to chase it down, and the hit points and shields to tank the aces and their autocrits while it does it.