Okay so im pretty much got all the rules down, and I love the system. I plan to run the system for my game group pretty soon. I only have one problem I am a little worried about, they are all Min Maxer's, they do role play really well though. My group has been together for 15 years straight , and we game every Saturday for 12 hours. So whenever I run a new system I try to figure out what to watch out for as a GM. I want to know if any other GM's have had experience with Min Maxer's with this system. So tell me your story if you got one. Im thinking that the narrative effects of the game may help handle Min Maxer's < just a guess let me know.

The big ones are reducig the acctivation cost of autofire, and speederbike-mounted autoblasters.

...those are separate problems, not one big combo. Though they do combo, in second thought...

We have a man/maxer in our group and this game pretty much shut him down. There are still really good combos and stuff, but the thematic nature really does a lot to mitigate one player outracing the others.

I ran a campaign for about a year and encountered some min/maxing. The main mistake I made as a new GM of this system was to allow an attachment for a blaster rifle that could give it auto-fire. As a group, we convinced ourselves we'd probably see such an attachment eventually in the game, and you can already purchase such an attachment specifically for bowcasters anyway. So, my group wanted them for their rifles... and it was a mistake. That's really the only problem I experienced and admittedly it was my fault. Don't ever do it.

Moving forward, I would request a rule in my groups to limit attributes and skills to a rank of four to start. I would still totally allow all my players to raise their attributes and skills in the game above four per the rules, but I would like to see them practicing that skill for a few sessions in game to get it to five, or have their characters hit the gym and workout for a few sessions to get their Brawn characteristic to five or six. But that's just a preference.

The min/maxers in my group also didn't like the fact that armor, soak, cover, and concealment bonuses (setback dice) didn't stack in their favor. I suggest you prepare to have that debate with your min/maxers.

Moving forward, I would request a rule in my groups to limit attributes and skills to a rank of four to start. I would still totally allow all my players to raise their attributes and skills in the game above four per the rules, but I would like to see them practicing that skill for a few sessions in game to get it to five, or have their characters hit the gym and workout for a few sessions to get their Brawn characteristic to five or six. But that's just a preference.

As per the rules skills cannot be raised above 2 ranks at character generation unless you use the Knight level option and then the maximum starting ranks become 3. Attributes can be raised to maximum at character generation normally but that requires a fair amount of xp in most cases.

Also

My game concept was that the group were younglings being transported to the Jedi Temple around the end of the Clone wars when Order 66 happened. As a result the Jedi who was acting as an escort took them to an Outer Rim world and raised them as 'War Orphans'. At game start they had been given training and I made the mistake of giving them Lightsabers (though with lesser quality Synthetic crystals). I would definitely advise not allowing full sabers at start, I would give them training sabers instead if I could start again from scratch.

I am also looking at limiting how quickly and easily they can learn Force Powers and upgrades as my bunch quickly became very powerful quite quickly. And to be honest, any further games I do will be combination games using all three core books and I will only allow one Force user at start.

I don't understand the concerns people have bout munchkining and min/max players in this system. These play styles were a problem in a system where there were level caps and you had to be very particular with the planning of your build or you screwed up your character and would have to "start" over.

This system isn't like that. There are no level caps. This makes EVERY player a min/maxer. With no level cap the only restrictions is xp. Eventually every character will be good at everything, or good enough to do something significant in game. What's the alternative? You got 2 styles of play, characters that are great at what they do or character who are ok at a bunch of things? You wanna be great or ok? That's the mentality, not the reality. I like to tell my players that the more skills they have the more chances they will have to do something great in game.

So my advice to you is stick to raw, and if there's problems with things your players do stop treating it like its the gms vs players and start looking at it as gm & players vs everyone's creativity. Look for in game solutions to problems. Such as auto-fire. If players are killing minions too quickly, add more after the fact as backup.

The only real problem I had in the last 4 years of gming is money. If your group is getting into the realm of 10k or so, hit them with costs/fees. Keep them hungry, really, really, hungry. Make it so that the prize procession they have is that stinky old rifle with auto fire. So they "feel" it when it's confiscated, or takes damage in the field.

eldath, on 25 Oct 2015 - 07:35 AM, said:

SemperSarge, on 24 Oct 2015 - 11:06 PM, said:

Moving forward, I would request a rule in my groups to limit attributes and skills to a rank of four to start. I would still totally allow all my players to raise their attributes and skills in the game above four per the rules, but I would like to see them practicing that skill for a few sessions in game to get it to five, or have their characters hit the gym and workout for a few sessions to get their Brawn characteristic to five or six. But that's just a preference.

As per the rules skills cannot be raised above 2 ranks at character generation unless you use the Knight level option and then the maximum starting ranks become 3. Attributes can be raised to maximum at character generation normally but that requires a fair amount of xp in most cases.

Also

My game concept was that the group were younglings being transported to the Jedi Temple around the end of the Clone wars when Order 66 happened. As a result the Jedi who was acting as an escort took them to an Outer Rim world and raised them as 'War Orphans'. At game start they had been given training and I made the mistake of giving them Lightsabers (though with lesser quality Synthetic crystals). I would definitely advise not allowing full sabers at start, I would give them training sabers instead if I could start again from scratch.

I am also looking at limiting how quickly and easily they can learn Force Powers and upgrades as my bunch quickly became very powerful quite quickly. And to be honest, any further games I do will be combination games using all three core books and I will only allow one Force user at start.

I am curious to know why you felt giving them lightsabers at start was a mistake? I run a game at knight level where 3 PC started with lightsabers and I had no problems.

eldath, on 25 Oct 2015 - 07:35 AM, said:

SemperSarge, on 24 Oct 2015 - 11:06 PM, said:

Moving forward, I would request a rule in my groups to limit attributes and skills to a rank of four to start. I would still totally allow all my players to raise their attributes and skills in the game above four per the rules, but I would like to see them practicing that skill for a few sessions in game to get it to five, or have their characters hit the gym and workout for a few sessions to get their Brawn characteristic to five or six. But that's just a preference.

As per the rules skills cannot be raised above 2 ranks at character generation unless you use the Knight level option and then the maximum starting ranks become 3. Attributes can be raised to maximum at character generation normally but that requires a fair amount of xp in most cases.

Also

My game concept was that the group were younglings being transported to the Jedi Temple around the end of the Clone wars when Order 66 happened. As a result the Jedi who was acting as an escort took them to an Outer Rim world and raised them as 'War Orphans'. At game start they had been given training and I made the mistake of giving them Lightsabers (though with lesser quality Synthetic crystals). I would definitely advise not allowing full sabers at start, I would give them training sabers instead if I could start again from scratch.

I am also looking at limiting how quickly and easily they can learn Force Powers and upgrades as my bunch quickly became very powerful quite quickly. And to be honest, any further games I do will be combination games using all three core books and I will only allow one Force user at start.

I am curious to know why you felt giving them lightsabers at start was a mistake? I run a game at knight level where 3 PC started with lightsabers and I had no problems.

Because they are murder death sticks and we where slaughtering Imperials left and right

Isn't that the point of being a Jedi? Just throw more bad guys, it's not like the Empire doesn't have enough to go around....

"I hope you brought a better class of soldier than those storm troopers."
"They serve the Empire well, and I have great many of them."

"You're gonna need all them"

- Rex and Kallus, "Relics of the Old Republic"

Yeah, the Empire pretty much as infinite resources in terms of manpower and equipment in comparison to the PCs of your average Force and Destiny group. To say nothing of PCs being too open with lightsaber usage inevitably drawing the attention of an Inquisitor. And if the GM plays that Inquisitor smart (which they should), that Inquisitor will have plenty of backup of their own.

eldath, on 25 Oct 2015 - 07:35 AM, said:

At game start they had been given training and I made the mistake of giving them Lightsabers (though with lesser quality Synthetic crystals). I would definitely advise not allowing full sabers at start, I would give them training sabers instead if I could start again from scratch.

I am curious to know why you felt giving them lightsabers at start was a mistake? I run a game at knight level where 3 PC started with lightsabers and I had no problems.

There are a number of reasons; even my players find most fights to be a foregone conclusion especially with Breach 1, the quest for a Lightsaber should be something the Pc's expend effort in completing, and I personally feel that Lightsabers should be special. If Lucas had gone ahead with his initial concept then anyone could have had them, but the decision was taken to limit the number of them.

Min/maxers won`t really get much out of this system. The syste is really robust and near impossible to knock out of balance, from my experience.

Edit: Maybe gear might give you some trouble if you only focus the game one one aerea, but I haven`t encountered anything that tips the balance yet.

The game is very broad, so as long as you change up the chalenges and encounter types, I can`t see it being a big problem.

If your player are min/maxed in an aerea. like combat, vehicles or social for example, they might be very good at that. Reward those chices and give them

some hard chalenges in other aereas and encounter types to mix it up(failing is fun in this system). It all evens out.

You don`t even get XP for combat or specific encounters in this game, you get extra for roleplaing and following your motivation, so spread out the chalenges and it will

always be balanced in a system that is very tight and hard to min/max to begin with.

Big ones have been mentioned.

With sabers: make sure you mate the right saber to the right game. If the game is largely is AoR or EotE, sabers are beasts, but there's no way to even get the lightsaber skill. If you want to allow access tot he skill (through F&D, or just being cool like that) probably best to give them a F&D saber and remember to toss an extra stormtrooper or two into the minion groups regularly.

The big guy with a lot of soak is also an issue.

The big guy with a lot of soak is also an issue.

Not in a social encounter, a chase, a heist or anything that isn`t combat.. You should check out the episode called Social Engineering from the Order 66 Podcast where they talk about "social combat".

It is very interesting and presents the idea of doing social encounters where you take strain damage from social attacks. In those cases, Willpower could be used as soak if you like that thought.

Here are some simple ways to minimise the effects of min/maxer that I use:

1. Mix up challenges and don't let Combat Monster PCs always defer social and other Skill checks to other PCs. Same goes with min/maxed Force Using, Social and Tech PCs.
In my games the Player that first mentions doing something is the one whose PC makes the roll unless they ask another PC in game to do it instead. Remember that in a lot of situations NPCs will be present and will hear PCs talking to each other.
2. Do not hand wave any of the RAW, especially Encumbrance and Calling all shots when using Auto-Fire before rolling.
Rules like ENC are meant to be balancing tools, don't forget them. Also you don't need to police ENC just tell your Players to keep track of it and bring it up whenever it looks like something is amiss, let them do the work (most people are pretty honest about it).
3. (House Rule) Minimum of 1 Damage on a Hit regardless of Soak, except for Brawl Damage which is handled normally.
This really only affects High Soak PCs as Low Soak PCs who get hit nearly always take damage anyway, it keeps it dangerous as even one Damage allows for Criticals.

4. Talents like Jury Rigging and Mods that reduce the Advantage cost to activate effects only affect the first instance for activating weapon effects, additional activations cost the normal amount.
These Mods and Talents are still super effective and worth purchasing but it keeps them from getting out of hand.

Sticking to the RAW, enforcing Encumbrance, and those two House Rules have pretty much eliminated most of the problems caused by min/maxed combat monsters in my games. The PCs still get to shine brightly but combat stays dangerous and isn't quite the forgone conclusion it could be.

I run a campaign where 2 out of the 3 players are padawans who survived order 66 and we're instructed by a master to go into hiding. They have sabers and started with 300xp. They are now 1000xp and it'd a blast. I thwart them with Inquisitors, Emperor's hand, shadow guard, and elite troopers. The 3rd player is an ex imperial who realized he is force sensitive and is a marauder assassin who does 11 damage with his Vibro knuckle . There is no issues at their level. As a GM I just get creative with enemies and don't just use stock stats.

In saga I ran gestault pcs. Had a min maxer in every game and they never get me. The key is to be creative and not just make linear fights or linear encounters of 1,2,3.

...There is no issues at their level. As a GM I just get creative with enemies and don't just use stock stats.

In saga I ran gestault pcs. Had a min maxer in every game and they never get me. The key is to be creative and not just make linear fights or linear encounters of 1,2,3.

I get this as do I think most people but there are enough threads about the subject of min/maxing in this system that for some it is an issue. For me it's mostly game style, I prefer Heroic Cinematic Realism (not strait realism but the kinds of things we see in the original films) where PCs can do heroic and sometimes seemingly impossible things but are still clearly grounded in real physics. Min/maxing, for me, leads to more Cartoony Physics where the grounding is a bit more tenuous and PCs feel like they are more out of a comic book than a film.

In any case the suggestions I've made and use myself are to make up for mechanical issues within the system that I found made the game less challenging for PCs built a certain way (ie. high soak combat monsters) and more enjoyable for the other Players who built more well rounded PCs.

Double Post

Not in a social encounter, a chase, a heist or anything that isn`t combat.. You should check out the episode called Social Engineering from the Order 66 Podcast where they talk about "social combat".

It is very interesting and presents the idea of doing social encounters where you take strain damage from social attacks. In those cases, Willpower could be used as soak if you like that thought.

Nooooo! The last thing we need is another soak. Then you have to worry about the 10 soak combat Marauder and the 10 soak social Politico! It means double amount of worries

We will need someone with a Tongue with breach quality

Not in a social encounter, a chase, a heist or anything that isn`t combat.. You should check out the episode called Social Engineering from the Order 66 Podcast where they talk about "social combat".

It is very interesting and presents the idea of doing social encounters where you take strain damage from social attacks. In those cases, Willpower could be used as soak if you like that thought.

Nooooo! The last thing we need is another soak. Then you have to worry about the 10 soak combat Marauder and the 10 soak social Politico! It means double amount of worries

We will need someone with a Tongue with breach quality

Hehe. Only use anything as Soak in an encounter like that if you want to! My point was that you have lots of other encounter types and challenges than combat, so big soak characters only get overly powerful in games where you only focus on combat. And even then, I think it`s near impossible to get overpowered or tip the balance in this system if you play it right. This really isn`t a system for hardcore power gamers and min/maxers.

Never mind. Ignore

Actually, there already is a ranked talent that reduces involuntary strain in one of the social classes (Politico?), isn't there?

We will need someone with a Tongue with breach quality

You obviously haven't meet some of the "nice" southern ladies I have met over the years, especially the ones that know how to "kill with kindness."

Never mind. Ignore

Actually, there already is a ranked talent that reduces involuntary strain in one of the social classes (Politico?), isn't there?

There's one Resolve in Charmer; there's up to 2 ranks in a handful of other trees that aren't as social-focused.