Well, this is pretty much how the theorycrafting on the forums has gone so far, so I think you're spot-on. "Cool, we get Rogues with bombers!" "Hmmm, better get some anti-squadron rogues to tie up those rogue bombers." "Yipes... all those rogues sure are expensive. If I just throw in a couple squadron commands..." "So if I run an intel ship with Corruptor and boosted comms, that's 5 speed twice for my generic bombers..."

Unfortunately, I fear the mysterious "stage six" is the min/max efficiency question: "Well, now I have a bunch of generic bombers, because that gets me the most dice/range/damage/flexibility/etc. Am I sure they're doing more damage than the same number of points in ships? Do I want 134 points in squadrons, or another ISD, two Glads/Whales/shrimps, three Raiders, four Corvettes, etc? And do I really need lots of squadrons if I run into a bomber swarm, or can I avoid them/outrun them/table the carriers/etc?"

In Wave I, many players came to the conclusion that they could make do without significant squadrons, based on their breakdown of the "point cost vs. opportunity cost vs. expected damage vs. degree of difficulty vs. risk of being tabled vs. objective disadvantage vs. local metas vs. tournament MOV vs. `[whatever else]" calculus. It remains to be seen whether what we got in Wave I will change that. I'm hopeful it will, but we'll see.

While that could happen, Firespray spam could then come right back to wreck face. In fact, there is nothing keeping 6 Firesprays with a Jumpmaster from staying in the meta throughout those stages for someone who doesn't want to use squadron commands. The firespray and its 6 hull points and 3 anti-squadron are nothing to sneeze at.

There are also more tools to help keep squadrons in the fight this wave. Boosted Comms and Independence B-Wings are going to change things almost as radically as Intel. Going without squadrons will be a huge risk this wave.

I don't disagree, which is why I'm more optimistic about how the calculus will turn out in Wave I. Putting aside the cost of acquiring six firespray models, the fact that they're self-sufficient fliers, coupled with their anti-squadron/anti-ship batteries and significant health (36 health to chew through all six), makes them more attractive for more things than anything the imperials could field in Wave I. Plus the total point limit will be higher, and the Empire has a cheap ship, so taking 100+ points worth of squadrons no longer means just taking two ships when you could be facing as many as four or five.

That said, Tranenturm's comment below touches on how we're still working through the calculus. "Yes, I could take six Firesprays, but if my opponent takes six A-wings (at almost half the cost), can he shut down my significantly greater investment?" I can counter with Intel ("whoooooo! no holding us back now!") and with Boosted Comms, but now that's 124 points. For six more points, I could have two Glad Is with Ordnance Experts and APTs. Are those better than the six firesprays and jumpmaster and Boosted Comms? Depends on a lot of things: opponent's fighter screen, how long the intel ship lasts, whether I have Screed or not, if there's a raider screen defending the ship I want my firesprays to shoot at. How about one Glad I with Ordnance Experts and ACMs, plus three Firesprays and the Jumpmaster (133 points)? Or the Glad I, two firesprays, two Bombers, and the Jumpmaster (also 133)? Or three naked Raider Is (132)? Or an ISD II with Gunnery Teams (127)? Or any other number of combinations...

How to negate 6x Firespray

Buy 6x Awings

For the cost of two squadron commands and 66 points, you get to eliminate 104 points.

You'll have a few losses, but the awing alpha strike should down 1 Firespray and put the next halfway (with average rolls). It's close enough there may be a few battles that go the Firesprays direction, but the alpha strike really skews things.

Even if the Firespray player scatters the squadrons, each individual A-wing is roughly 50:50 with the Firespray. Having invested far less into the fight and knowing it will take at least two turns, if not three for the Firesprays to free themselves they should arrive to a much different fight than the imperial hoped, heavily damaged and closer to the point where ship AS fire can take them out.

In order to tie down the firesprays (in Truthiness's six-firespray example), the A's would also need to take down the Intel-bearing Jumpmaster, so that probably affects the damage some. That said, average rolls ought to be able to take out the jumpmaster and one firespray most of the time (10 total health, 6 A-wings do 9 damage on average rolls), and then engage whoever's left. At that point, it's a war of attrition between the firesprays' improved health and the A-wings' counter. However that war turns out (and I could honestly see it going either way), your point is spot-on. If you can force 120 points of squadrons into an attrition war with 66 points of squadrons, for a round or two, that's probably a strategic advantage (assuming the rest of your fleet is in a position to exploit it).

I never meant to imply the 6 As couldn't be countered. All the fights depend upon what else you bring. If you have a Raider escorting the Firesprays, it would greatly tip the scale in the Firesprays advantage (I'd hope so with twice the points invested). As a sample counter-counter (and yes we could do it all day which is part of the point your getting at) is I can see 6 As, 6 Ys being a thing. While the Ys are heavy (and slower), that's enough extra firepower to get things back in my favor. Your next step is to fly a TIE Adv next to the Jumpmaster, yada yada yada.

That said, the beauty of a beauty of a balanced list is that its not automatically trumped by an all ship list. If your GSD swarm has to fight through 6 Ys, and 6 As, that a lot of "extra" dice being added to my ships. Not really extra as I'm paying for them, but a concentrated cloud of dice that fires after all ships have moved (or with ships if planned for) which can tip the scales in that crucial initial encounter. It's NOT Yavaris B-wing level of demolition, primarily because the damage is spread out to too many different squadrons which are hard to all get a shot on the same ship. BUT, so long as I play them right, I don't think I'm at a significant disadvantage vs the all-ship list. I don't think I'm at a great advantage either. But I'm going for a balanced list that can still handle one extreme. However, vs an all fighter list (lots and lots of TIE interceptors or something like that) my squadrons are going down hard and quick and my ships need to win before I lose all my squadrons. THAT all fighter list completes the circle to getting beat by all-ship lists.

So it is a big circle, but one that I don't personally feel has a power point in the greater meta. Local metas will always have their level of group think and could certainly drift to an agreed upon "unbeatable" list, that does have a counter, but nobody believes in it, knows about it, or wishes to play it.

Just a question - Rogue means "you can move and attack during the squadron phase"

I take this to mean you can move then attack only. Ie not attack then move which you can do if activated by a squadron command.

Agree?

Could be significant for Rogue/Grit combos, or Rogues that intend to attack ships and then reposition for an attack next turn.

Just a question - Rogue means "you can move and attack during the squadron phase"

I take this to mean you can move then attack only. Ie not attack then move which you can do if activated by a squadron command.

Agree?

Could be significant for Rogue/Grit combos, or Rogues that intend to attack ships and then reposition for an attack next turn.

They are already points inefficient if they are allowed to do both in any order. They are probably overpriced if that order is restricted.

Just a question - Rogue means "you can move and attack during the squadron phase"

I take this to mean you can move then attack only. Ie not attack then move which you can do if activated by a squadron command.

Agree?

Could be significant for Rogue/Grit combos, or Rogues that intend to attack ships and then reposition for an attack next turn.

No.

You can move and attack. In any order.

As opposed to move or attack. In any order.

Just a question - Rogue means "you can move and attack during the squadron phase"

I take this to mean you can move then attack only. Ie not attack then move which you can do if activated by a squadron command.

Agree?

Could be significant for Rogue/Grit combos, or Rogues that intend to attack ships and then reposition for an attack next turn.

Disagreed. If the restriction was intentional, it would be "move then attack" rather than "move and attack." Or to put it another way, if you showed up to my place for a grill party and I told you that you could eat the hamburgers and the hot dogs, at no point would you think that I was requiring you to eat hamburgers before hot dogs.

I'm with Average, Green, and Snip. Since it uses the word "and" instead of "then," it doesn't seem like there's any temporal aspect to the rogue keyword (other than "during the squadron phase," of course).

Adar Tallon used with Dash Rendar or the Falcon? Or would this be overkill on pts to get the gimmick shot in? lol

I think the most gimmicky shot is going to be the Nym yavdar-talovaris tripple tap which drastically increases your probability of token removal in a turn.

It's second place gimmick is already available in wave 1 (Talon on a different ship, moving Keyan into a dropped shield for the "let's get 6 re-rollable blacks in your face"

I think the most gimmicky shot is going to be the Nym yavdar-talovaris tripple tap which drastically increases your probability of token removal in a turn.

It's second place gimmick is already available in wave 1 (Talon on a different ship, moving Keyan into a dropped shield for the "let's get 6 re-rollable blacks in your face"

fickle will try it once and that one time he will roll 3 blue crits and strip a VSD of all its defense tokens. . . He will then jump for joy and spout to all the world his love for Nym. . .

We're still in Prediction Mode ya?

Prediction: Elite-filled Nuke Wings via Intel. High cost, high survivability, low maintenance, and focused nuke damage.

Realistically, we really only ever get to concentrate on one ship. The squadrons gotta get there, then shooties. After that there really isn't much time for repositioning and refocusing before end game.

Its going to be a fun journey experiencing the tabletop proving grounds.

We're still in Prediction Mode ya?

Prediction: Elite-filled Nuke Wings via Intel. High cost, high survivability, low maintenance, and focused nuke damage.

Realistically, we really only ever get to concentrate on one ship. The squadrons gotta get there, then shooties. After that there really isn't much time for repositioning and refocusing before end game.

Its going to be a fun journey experiencing the tabletop proving grounds.

We're still in Prediction Mode ya?

Prediction: Elite-filled Nuke Wings via Intel. High cost, high survivability, low maintenance, and focused nuke damage.

Realistically, we really only ever get to concentrate on one ship. The squadrons gotta get there, then shooties. After that there really isn't much time for repositioning and refocusing before end game.

Its going to be a fun journey experiencing the tabletop proving grounds.

Independence

B-wings be like

Just a question - Rogue means "you can move and attack during the squadron phase"

I take this to mean you can move then attack only. Ie not attack then move which you can do if activated by a squadron command.

Agree?

Could be significant for Rogue/Grit combos, or Rogues that intend to attack ships and then reposition for an attack next turn.

No.

You can move and attack. In any order.

As opposed to move or attack. In any order.

Even better. Just wanted to test the thinking on this.

I haven't really looked at the Imperail villains - but it seems they are so much better, nearly all of them have Rogue. It seems like the rebels really got shafted here.

I don't know. The HWK seems just as usable as the Jumpmaster. The H-6 will replace the Y-wing under certain circumstances. The YT-1300 makes a great B-wing escort. The YT-2400 is a great superiority fighter, being the second fastest rebel ship and has rogue.

If you're talking about the pilots, well maybe. Jan Ors will be priceless in the right build. Dash is just boring to me. Nym is high variance. Han useful for greater flexibility in timing, but otherwise not very special.

yeah, wave 2 rebel rogue for me is a lot of awesome generics and then Jan

Boosted Comms, Wing Commander and Intel, these 3 things combined have revolutionised the squadron game. Bombers are not easy at all to pin down any longer, they can put out pain every turn now, that simply didn't happen during Wave 1.

Looks like alpha striking squad commands will be needed to take out Intel ships. This can be protected with escort however. Vader +jumpmaster+ bombers will be very strong. Letting vedar tank enemy squad, but also able to dish out attack on enemy ships. Though Vader could be am advanced and do just as well. With the bombrt high damage and health; they'll basicly ignore anti squad fire.

Boosted Comms, Wing Commander and Intel, these 3 things combined have revolutionised the squadron game. Bombers are not easy at all to pin down any longer, they can put out pain every turn now, that simply didn't happen during Wave 1.

combined? nah

just boosted comms on its own makes commanding squadrons far simpler

the biggest problem I've noticed from anyone believing squadrons don't work is overloading on one "carrier" ship. Upgrades don't magically turn squadrons into death dealing machines, they're already death dealing machines and the points being stacked on their supporting ship is just making for an easy target

All any ship "needs" now is Boosted Comms, and that's basically only for Mc80s and Afmk2s looking to command squadrons while keeping their distance. Imps don't care, they'll be driving towards the enemy anyway, and Nebs don't either (even if they could take em!)

Imo, and I've said this before, the real "revolution" is the need to counter a long range threat in Akbar. Wave 1 had only a short range threat in Skreed GSDs, which lead to an incredibly easy solution in B-wings and not much else, so having a new type of squadron-less/squadron-light build to counter opens the floor for the other bombers in the game (especially Rhymer, who was great before but now has even greater opportunity to show off his unmatched range)

With more bombers to counter, fleets will start having to take more anti-squadrons to compensate or risk being really easy wins. Intel and Grit will further prod fleets in this direction.

there's also the minor revolution of Independence for anyone running B-wings and not wanting to change

I ran 4 firesprays, Boba, Rhymer, and Dengar against someone with 3 B-Wings, Dutch, Wedge, Jan, and Nym.

On turn two, I killed his MC80 with that ball of fighters. I moved Rhymer, then moved the Firesprays to Rhymer, and they were able to shoot at the MC80. It was brutal.

Running no squadrons, or one or two, is going to be suicide.