Can Maester Aemon ( Interrupt: When a NW character would be killed, kneel Master Aemon to save it. ) save himself?

Is Maester Aemon a Nights Watch character?

Maester Aemon (0125)

- Yes, he can save himself.

- If he couldn't, it would be worded "to save another (NW) character" or "To save a kneeling (NW) character" - or some other method that would exclude him at the time of initiation.

- This kind of question tends to occur because of wishful thinking; an opponent going "man, Aemon is way too powerful, he can negate my mililtary claim every turn!", therefore incredulous that the ability would work as written. All abilities work as written . While Aemon is powerful, there are several ways to limit his usefulness included in the core (Plaza of Purification, Marched to the Wall, Dracarys, Wildfire Assault, Treachery, Filthy Accusations, Things I do for Love - the list goes on)

The general take-away here is that a card can refer to itself by trait as well as title. Maester Aemon can use his ability to save characters with the Night's Watch trait and save himself because he has the Night's Watch trait. Similarly, Melisandre can use her Reaction ability (" Reaction : After you marshal or play a R’hllor card, choose and kneel a character. (Limit once per round.") to kneel a character after she herself is marshaled because she is a R'hllor card.

Nitpick: in the 2nd edition Night's Watch is not a trait, but a faction. A card can refer to itself by any of its attributes (title, traits, faction, STR, icons, whatever) or game state. Cards do not automatically exclude themselves when referring to attributes or game state, which is why Jon Snow says "another attacking Night's Watch character", for instance. The only special case of self-reference is by name, because it refers only to the specific copy of the card.

Thank you!

The general take-away here is that a card can refer to itself by trait as well as title. Maester Aemon can use his ability to save characters with the Night's Watch trait and save himself because he has the Night's Watch trait. Similarly, Melisandre can use her Reaction ability (" Reaction : After you marshal or play a R’hllor card, choose and kneel a character. (Limit once per round.") to kneel a character after she herself is marshaled because she is a R'hllor card.

are you sure about this?

The general take-away here is that a card can refer to itself by trait as well as title. Maester Aemon can use his ability to save characters with the Night's Watch trait and save himself because he has the Night's Watch trait. Similarly, Melisandre can use her Reaction ability (" Reaction : After you marshal or play a R’hllor card, choose and kneel a character. (Limit once per round.") to kneel a character after she herself is marshaled because she is a R'hllor card.

are you sure about this?

Yes, he's quite sure.

Well, other than what Khudzlin already pointed out about Night's Watch being an affiliation rather than a trait, but everything else still stands:

- A card that refers to a trait, affiliation, icon, status or any other characteristic that it has can, indeed, affect itself (unless text on the card specifically says otherwise - usually by saying "other" or "another"). or satisfy its own triggering condition.

- You can use Mel to kneel a character after you marshal Mel herself.

Sorry, but I don't get it and I'm obviously not the only one.

How can a card (Melisandre) that is not in play yet, trigger his abilities? I know, the comparison is misleading, but it wouldn't work in Magic the Gathering or most other TCG, as far as I know. Is there a rule you can refer to?

Thanks

You will not find a rule that specifically says, "A card must be in play when a triggering condition resolves and a reaction window is opened in order to be an eligible reaction to that triggering condition." But then, you will also not find a rule (more consistent with this game and the way its rules are written) saying, "A reaction ability is not eligible and cannot be triggered if the card it is on is not in play when its triggering condition resolves and the reaction window opens."

Instead, you have to look at rules like the following:

RRG, p. 17 - Reactions:

"Within the reaction window, the first player always has the first opportunity to initiate an eligible reaction (to this triggering condition), or pass. Opportunities to initiate an eligible reaction, or pass, continue in player order until all players consecutively pass, at which point the reaction window closes. Passing does not prevent a player from initiating an eligible reaction later in that same reaction window."

RRG, p. 2 - Abilities:

"x Card abilities only interact with, and can only target, cards that are in play, unless the ability text specifically refers to an out of play area or element. Card abilities on characters, locations, and attachments can only be initiated or affect the game from an in play area unless they specifically refer to being used from an out of play area, or require that the card be out of play for the ability to resolve. Event cards and agenda cards implicitly interact with the game from an out of play area, as established by the rules of their card types."

RRG, p. 10 - Initiating Abilities/Marshaling Cards:

"When a player wishes to marshal or play a card, or initiate a triggered ability, that player first declares his or her intent (and shows the card to be used, if necessary). The following steps are then observed, in order:

1. Check play restrictions: can the card be marshaled or played, or the ability initiated, at this time?"

Taken together, these rules tell us that:

- When a triggering condition fully resolves, a reaction window is opened in which reaction abilities to that triggering condition may be played. (p. 17).

- A location, attachment or character must be in play when you trigger its ability, unless otherwise specified. (p. 2).

- Checking the play restrictions in order to see whether or not an ability may be initiated at a particular time happens when you want to initiate the ability . (p. 10).

Take all of these together and you get that whether or not a Reaction can be triggered is checked as part of initiating the ability, NOT as part of resolving the triggering condition/opening the reaction window. So determining whether or not a card is "in play" and an eligible reaction to a triggering condition is based on the game state at the time the specific reaction ability is initiated/triggered, and NOT on the game state as it existed when the triggering condition itself resolved.

Specifically on Mel, though, you're going to want to think through the timing a little more closely. This statement:

How can a card (Melisandre) that is not in play yet, trigger his abilities?

is not actually correct.

Remember that a reaction window doesn't open up until its triggering condition completely resolves. For Mel, that means the triggering condition, "After you marshal or play a R'hllor" card must have happened (i.e., applied its results) before the reaction window ever opens. That means the R'hllor card Marshaled must have completely entered play before the reaction window opens. So Melisandre is indeed "in play" before the reaction window opens. Granted, she isn't in play very long before the reaction window opens, but she does enter play fully before any reactions to the act of Marshaling her card can be triggered.

Look at it this way, you have absolutely no problem with the reaction abilities like Areo Hotah, Arya Stark or Greenblood Trader (effectively, "Reaction: After 'This Card' enters play...") being able to trigger when they themselves are played, right? Even through they are put into play by the resolution of the triggering condition they are reacting to, rather than being in play before that triggering condition was initiated? What's the difference between those cards reacting to themselves entering play, referring to themselves by title, and Melisandre reacting to herself entering play, referring to herself by trait?