We've all seen the escalation before. Someone somewhere on the forum arbitrarily decides that a particular discussion has grown beyond some arbitrary context, and must be reigned in before things get out of hand. This is done by reminding everyone involved that X-Wing is little more than a game where grown adults get together to play with little, plastic, Star War themed ships. Implicit in this self-denigrating call for perspective, is the notion that even though we invest hundreds of dollars in a hobby, it is essentially nothing more than a grown up version of playing with Tonka^TM toys in the local sandbox.

I will be the first to admit that Internet forums (in general) can get downright immature, and that arguments can (and do) escalate to the point of childish name calling (which is pretty pathetic) or worse. People are people and realistically speaking, we aren't all on the same page when it comes to maturity or emotional stability. Some people are more emotionally invested in their opinions than others, some are trolls, some are just argumentative, and well - you've all seen the gamut, so I don't need to paint that picture for you.

The only reason anyone speaks of this game in terms of adults playing with toy ships is to present the game as something so childish, we shouldn't hold any passionate opinions about it. I could try and capture the nuance better than that - and maybe someone else will - but I am not writing this to flesh that out. I am just wondering if anyone really believes that this game can be fairly summed up by such descriptions.

Is that really what we are doing? Does anyone playing the game actually believe that?

Let me explain a bit.

If I let my nine year old son play with some X-Wing miniatures, you can guess what that will eventually look like. My son would shortly be "flying" the ships (by hand) around my house, making engine, laser, and explosion noises in harmony with whatever imaginary scene his mind happens to be dreaming up as he goes along. No rules, no opponent - just pure playtime.

He isn't playing a game, he is playing with toys.

There seems to me to be a difference between playing toys, and playing a game. In X-Wing, the miniatures are not toys to be played with, but visual placeholders that tell us where our spaceship is, with reference to other spaceships likewise been represented in the space combat simulation.

Is it intellectually "fair" to equate playing with ships (pew pew!) with playing a strategy game that uses miniatures as visual (and aesthetically pleasing) placeholders?

I say, no! You can call me a baby for playing space combat simulation games, but don't suggest that in doing so all I am doing is playing with little toy ships. Good gravy, get it right! I am using highly crafted representations of copyrighted intellectual properties, in a game intended to simulate the sort of space combat seen in the Star Wars franchise movies and shows.

the main difference between us and your son is that we're old and our imaginations are shriveled and decrepit

therefore, we need an opponent to form some kind of basis to think around

also, I do agree there's a distinction between "toys" and "games" and, as long as Chess exists, it's not really a difficult distinction to make

but it is what it is: a pass-time, a hobby etc.

I believe the "grown adults pushing toy ships around" direction is more to put things in perspective that we are indeed just having fun; nothing more serious

What was the point of this?

I do think we are all grown men and women playing with toy spaceships and I also think that with real maturity comes the realisation that grown men and women playing with toy spaceships is perfectly fine and nothing to be ashamed of.

Is that all we're doing? No of course not, we're using our brains to play a game of tactics and planning but that doesn't take away from the fact that we're playing with toys.

What was the point of this?

You know how a car drives down a road on its way to some destination?

Well, to use that as a metaphor: the car represents this post, the road represents the desire to pass time on a Friday afternoon on my way to the destination - which is discussing with other fans of the game and readers of the forum some peculiar thing we do and are all familiar with.

I thought that was obvious.

He's saying that denigrating something as "Just a game" does it a disservice. And he's not wrong.

When I bring that card up, I try to preface it with the reason why we get mad when things go wrong- Because we're invested. Not just monetarily, but our time, and thoughts, our hopes. X-wing is a big deal for us. It brings a lot of people a great deal of joy, brings tons of people together, and for some people it's a way to reach out to others when just talking is hard. That's worthy of being passionate about.

However, it's important not to lose perspective. Those are the things that are truly important about this game; Not your win/loss ratio, not which ship is OP, etc. -Don't get me wrong, those things are affecting people's experiences and that makes thinking about these things important in their own way. But don't let that detract from the bigger part of the game or drag down others' experience.

The, "Toy Spaceships" line works because humor can do a good job of bringing us back down to earth. I suppose it does somewhat disparage the game as a whole, but that's more to do with perceptions. See, to answer your question, "Is this game more than Child's play?" I'd say it's a bit more complicated than a young child making starship noises while running about the house, but still in the same category.

So. What?

Play is how we learn about the world. It's a vital way in which we connect with others. If someone calls this game childish, they're just trying to make their own hobbies seem more important some how. Who cares what they think? Football is just a bunch of people tossing a leather ball around and tackling each other. Sounds like Child's play to me! The Mona Lisa was a guy putting pigments on paper. Sound's like Child's artwork to me!

Also, I think the phrase "pushing around plastic toy ships," is not something that we (the community) truly think of about ourselves when we think of the game. Rather, this is the label we expect an outsider to place on us.

But I don't get caught up so much in the comparison to children's toys. I think "pushing around plastic toy ships" is just as ridiculous as "sitting around looking at splotches of ink on paper" or "lounging on the couch staring at flashing lights in a box." Everything we do for fun is kind of ridiculous at some level.

EDIT: I agree with Squark's idea about the role of humor in those statements.

I'm just an adult playing with plastic toy spaceships.

I do not feel the need to dress it up or justify it.

My 5 year old daughter play with them as well. We may do so with different rules, but both of us are playing

Drop the word toy and the statement becomes impossible to argue against. We are playing with little, plastic spaceships.

Of course the World Series is grown men hitting a ball with a large stick. All sports and pastimes are inherently silly when viewed objectively.

X-wing is not a toy, as I have explained to my sons. It is a game though. And if we ain't having fun, you're doing it wrong.

Everybody's got to have a hobby.

Judge not, yadda, yadda...

DanDoulogos I think you bring up some good points.

And like so much else in life there's no simple answer. I don't think everyone who says something like that is trying to belittle the hobby, although I imagine some are.

Myself I like to think of it as simple phrase to point out that what we're doing isn't really life and death, my mortgage, my wife, my kids, ect... will not be impacted if I win or lose. Although I suppose in some cases someone's mortgage and thereby marriage could be impacted by the amount of money spent...

And since the overall impact on my life is not that great, how much I get upset about a loss should be proportional to the actual impact.

But there is I think in some cases a real attempt at making it seem like it's not that big of a deal, as an means to excuse someone's behavior. I've seen people make that claim when someone else calls them on sloppy play or the like.

Also, I think the phrase "pushing around plastic toy ships," is not something that we (the community) truly think of about ourselves when we think of the game. Rather, this is the label we expect an outsider to place on us.

But I don't get caught up so much in the comparison to children's toys. I think "pushing around plastic toy ships" is just as ridiculous as "sitting around looking at splotches of ink on paper" or "lounging on the couch staring at flashing lights in a box." Everything we do for fun is kind of ridiculous at some level.

EDIT: I agree with Squark's idea about the role of humor in those statements.

Yeah, the moment you do "pew, pew" sounds, it is playing with toys. Game or not.

This is also a social event. There are hobbies and pastimes that are solitary endeavors. For me the social aspect is very important. It prevents me from becoming a recluse with my books and models as lone companions.

Those individuals who make fun of grown men "playing with toys" are usually the same ones knocking a little white ball around a golf course (ruining a nice walk by the way) or beating a fuzzy, orange sized ball with a racket. They don't appreciate the mental aspects of the game.

There was a thread asking what our "real jobs" were. Anyone that read that thread would recognise the large number of professionals that play X-wing. Not a bad showing for just "playing with toys".

I'll leave it to the psychologists to figure out why grown do what we do. In the mean time I'll play because I have fun and I don't need any more justification than that.

I'm a grown man playing with toy, plastic spaceships. I go "pew pew" with them. I also happen to roll dice when I do it, and play with them around an elaborate rule system.

Enjoy your armchair psycho-analysis.

The "plastic toys" comment is just a fun way of saying, "Relax, this is supposed to be fun."

I definitely missed the point of this thread.

The "plastic toys" comment is just a fun way of saying, "Relax, this is supposed to be fun."

Usually one is paying much more into it than physically gaining.

So why shouldn't you do it for something else than less material goals as "just" fun, thrills and maybe that imaginary thing called "honour" and "pride"...?

Drop the word toy and the statement becomes impossible to argue against. We are playing with little, plastic spaceships.

Of course the World Series is grown men hitting a ball with a large stick. All sports and pastimes are inherently silly when viewed objectively.

X-wing is not a toy, as I have explained to my sons. It is a game though. And if we ain't having fun, you're doing it wrong.

Honestly sports become more ridiculous when you examine more closely. Not only for how much they get paid and some of the things they demand their stadiums have, but also the culture around it. Team loyalty is crazy when you think about it.

Yeah. Most of the time I just kinda' zip 'em around and I admit, I do make the occasional noise. What am I supposed to do with these things when I'm not playing the actual game itself? Leave 'em on a shelf?

I was never that kind of kid, and I'm apparently not that kind of adult.

I feel no shame in admitting that I'm finding an excuse to play with little plastic ships, alongside this being a very fun, intuitive and well thought out game- but just as well... I will never understand the concept of having to meet the expectations of being an adult, by not having fun with kid's stuff anymore.

tl;dr you're never too old to have fun doing the same thing you did when you were five.

Implicit in this self-denigrating call for perspective, is the notion that even though we invest hundreds of dollars in a hobby, it is essentially nothing more than a grown up version of playing with Tonka^TM toys in the local sandbox.

Implicit in this self-denigrating thread is the word "bait", a badly drawn image of a fish, and 3 pages of guaranteed replies.

We'd be playing this game with 2D chits if this were the days before cheap plastic models. For people who don't like mussing with tiny toys, and bumping ships from an errant maneuver, there's always Vassal.

The reality is, the models are 3D placeholders for a 2D game, so yes, we're just noncing about with little toys and a metric crapton of cardboard.

Toy=good.

I mean do we complain when women play dress up?

Toy=good.

I mean do we complain when women play dress up?

Nope.

Cheers

Baaa

You can trace X-wing back to miniature war games played for centuries, or even chess if you want. Just because the game pieces look like awesome space ships like the ones I played with when I was 3 doesn't make this a toy. It also says on the package this is not a toy. So nah nah. I don't think anyone should ever have to justify playing this game.

I sometimes just take out my models and fly them around making pew pew noises. *shrug*

I don't see why it matters how "proper" it is, you're getting something out of the game, that's all that matters.