I thought it would be interesting to play a game using no repositional abilities - and triple mirror the start locations - and have three sets of ships to fly, blue fighting blue, red fighting red and yellow fighting yellow, to look at how starting position can affect your attack line, and the opponents.

So here are screenshots of the first 7 turns of a game - played not optimally between two 60 point lists.... The Scum list was chosen to have lower P.S. so that it would be set up in the same place for all three setups - as it would be placed first. While the Rebels choose 3 (somewhat arbitrary) starting positions, for the purpose of seeing the movement lines form.)

Rebel
Luke Skywalker + R5P9 (31)
Wedge Antilles (29)

Scum
Syndicate Thug + BTL-A4 + Unhinged + TLT (25)
Mandalorian Mercenary. (35)

The turns are presented with minimal commentary - finding better places to move from each turn is an exercise left to the reader. I wish to discuss more generalized abstract ideas based on the comparisons between the lines, and the likely outcome for each match. (They were not played to conclusion)

It's also something that needs to be done by 6 players at some point - as the lines would be less artificial!

Turn 0 -


Turn 1


Turn 2

Blue Wedge Dies

Turn 3


Turn 4

Red Luke Dies

Turn 5


Turn 6

Red Thug Dies
Blue Thug Dies

Turn 7

Blue Luke Full shields.

Lines between turn 0-7


Notice the overal position of the lines and how the ships fly straight towards each other, roughly. While this will not always be the case - this is especially so for ships that lack turrets, and have no other means to reposition.

It's interesting to note, that all three Scum attack lines have the same origin point. Each color for Scum nearly represents the same part of the maneuver tree. Also notice how simmilar the positions in the first 2-3 turns are for Scum - nearly all remaining in the upper right quadrant - They chose to play slowly in the Red and Yellow Cases to pull the Rebels into/through the asteroids.

Of course there are always alternatives to what actually occured - for example with the Yellow Rebel Group (YRG) heading straight up together, while the Blue Scum Group (BSG) flew straight down - they could've created a merry go round - This would be the result if the YRG and BSG had both started straight forward and REFUSED to enter the asteroid field.

Lets look at each case as it unfolded.

Blue:

Rebels take on a joust - but don't quite have the power to kill the BSG Y-wing They have to play a range game, hoping to hit range 1 with no time, or minimal time in the range 2-3 kill box - as the X-wings are likely to take damage. The Scum player pulls a nice trick using their line/position to block a k-turn from luke that would've finished off the Y-wing a bit earlier.

The rebel player sees it and turns left, into a k-turn, risking dice and range on the y-following, the risk here pays off, and Luke is able to kill the Y-wing, and race away from the Mercenary, to regen 2 HP, before turning back into the fight or racing about the asteroids - The Rebel player will have to camble again, given the HP remaining on the Merc (There was a pot shot the turn the y-wing escaped arc, leaving it at 8 health.)

Verdict : Scum Victory - The straight up joust with the superior HP of the Scum and the quadruple attacks make the Blue Rebel starting Position, a dangerous dice game, that requires nailing the ranged positional game.

Red:

Rebel's set up to get some asteroid cover, and move ahead slowly enough to see what the Scum player does. Opting to race into position when they see the bump delay tactic slowly turn the Merc towards the rocks. Luke and Wedge pull agressive moves to try and jump into the range of the Y-wing, recognizing a need to kill it first and kill it quickly, this puts luke on a path across an asteroid, but the gamble pays off and the Y-wing is damaged, with Luke free to K-turn and Wedge can escape across an asteroid.

Luke dies to the tailgun of the firespray - but Wedge is able to pursue the Y-wing and punish it's K-turn attempt, while the firespray's poor line puts it in no position to easily turn up through the rocks towards wedge (the size and position of the ship would've meant landing on the rocks - unless the firespray had given up on the aft luke shot to chase wedge.

Verdict: Rebel Victory - Wedge is free to pursue the firespray with a position that lets him easily navigate the asteroids, while firing first with his ability at full health against the slightly damaged firespray. (luke's parting gift) Wedge will have to drop stress to gain an action, but that's easy to do from this position. The firespray will have to come back into the rocks, or turn out to the left

Yellow:

This rebel position gives them the most space, and they attempt to pull a flanking maneuver - hoping to catch the y-wing from out of arc entirely. Wedge pushes too far forward in turn 2-3 - in order to bait the ships further left, but leaves himself with nowhere to k-turn, and not enough time to turn back in on the fight, from fear of jousting solo against the incoming ships.

Luke's line is also fairly poor and causes him to cross an asteroid, but he does get pursuant shots on the firespray and is able to remove its shields, while avoiding the y-wing arc. Wedge's positional sacrifice leads to a good position for a luckily full health luke with a range 1 shot on the y-wing, Luke can stay stressed to pursue the y-wing - which likely wants to k-turn here, while the firespray is flying off in the wrong direction.

Verdict: Scum Victory - with a decent shot at a rebel victory. Had Wedge pushed ahead slowly from turn 2's position, his extra damage could've pushed this into a more likely Rebel victory - especially since Luke has the extra defense and shield regen potential sitting on full health. The Y'wing can however play slow ahead here - and ruin lukes 2 turn pursuit. If luke pursues the firespray - the Y-wing will likely get it's btl-a4 barrage on luke, and destroy him with the help of the firespray's aft cannons.

Initial Positions.
So - Which starting position is best? Probably Yellow - The rebels really missed the chance at a joust where they had time to exploit range control and asteroids on the approach. This is especially interesting because it's the worst outcome in this case - given the 2v1 scenario at the end - Blue and Red both ended in a 1v1 scenario.

The Red position is too uncomfortably close to the denser part of the asteroid field. In general, with the lack of repositioning abilities (boost/decloak/barrel roll/Stay on Target) The Red starting position may be the worst, but a decent line choice, with the aggressive over the rock wedge escape leads to a stronger overall rebel attack line.

the Blue position may be a nice spot for a jousting list - but when facing an even stronger jousting list, we can see that it gives the y-wing and Mercenary too much space to not worry about the rocks, and control the range game with the larger base. Without some luck, the Rebel attack line here likely loses the game.

Hopefully we can see that both starting position, and the subsequent maneuvers (the attack line) has a big effect on who gets shots and when, as well as which obstacles you're going to have to deal with a turn or two down the road.

We can also start to imagine a rubber band between our opposing forces - pulling them together from wherever they start on the field. Our forces really are "Attracting eachother" most of the time. We can use that knowledge to try and influence the opponents attack line, while we envision our own. When you place your ships - you should be thinking of your approach to the enemy, through the asteroids - especially if you're placing after the opponent.

If you're placing before the opponent, think about where you do not want to fly, and where you do. Consider the opponents list, in deciding where to place your list - for example, As the Scum player in this scenario, i'm quite happy if you drop your ships right in front of mine - and I can quite possibly expect a better player to not position his ships in front of mine. Try to have an alternate attack line planned when you place your ships first.

What else do you see in these lines? Do you see any lessons to learn? What makes for a strong attack line, or a weak one? We may all see something different - and with several more, may be able to start putting some abstract general concepts into place....

Community discussion, and input can help lead to a better understanding of these questions!

P.S. - Jousting with a BTL TLT thug is a bad idea if you can't kill it first.

P.P.S. The Verdicts are also based on who appears to have the upper hand, but are of course not the only possible outcome, just the one I envision is probable.

P.P.P.S. In the future - common attack line movements as they relate to different ships, Like a Knight in chess moves 1 left and 2 forward, Different Ships have different preferred movements, that often help determine where they like to go....

Interesting post. It took me a moment to realize what the red, yellow, and blue dots were doing, but once I got it, it seemed like a clever way to keep things organized.

I think ship placement and asteroid placement is the weakest part of my game. But I'm learning. Posts like this help me break down what's actually going on in an approach, and where different decisions can land you.

I need to start deploying my firespray in people's faces.

I need to start deploying my firespray in people's faces.

There are lots of lists where this is a bad idea.

It works in this list because the opponents are not turreted or arc dodging, and the firespray is actually the least offensively efficient - and there's only 60 points of ships here. Watch Doug Kinney's games to see some good firespray play, and currently I think Theorist is running Azzameen in a vassal tournament.

Usually firesprays need to protect their sides, and have access to some kind of re-position to help do that (expert handling or engine) In the scenarios above - I think integrated astromech actually would've been really good for the rebel list - preventing a direct hit on blue wedge, leading to him being around - leading to a more even blue joust, and it would've saved luke in the Red game - while altering the yellow scum attack line further, with an extra turn of wedge in the yellow game - which could've given yellow luke enough time to do some further damage before losing wedge.

Here - getting up in the x-wings face works quite specifically because the jousting efficiency of the Firespray + Y-wing is somewhat higher than the dual X-wings - so you can just send them in. Don't underestimate how much offense that Y-wing provides. Taking it out first, is most certainly the right call in this scenario. The BTL TLT Y is responsible for most of the damage done in all three games.


In general if you have a list that's better at the head on pass than the opponents, you want to get a head on pass. The BTL TLT y-wing is sooo good at damage output there, that it really props the firespray up. The fact that they're also lower P.S. and can be used to block can help the firespray go toe to toe, but typically this is done in a more endgame like scenario, which we almost have here, and they do indeed mess with K-turns in the blue and red matches.
I'd expect dual Firesprays (at 70 points) to fall to Luke + Wedge + 13 points of upgrades

Really interesting read. Thanks for posting this.

I'm not at a level where I can add anything meaningful to the conversation, but I feel its important to express how much these sort of articles help me get there.

Borderline off topic but is the recon+hlc firespray less or more joust efficient than the unmodded one?

This is a great subject.

I would say my flying and decision making in game when lasers start flying is good enough to give anyone a decent game. However when I've struggled in a game, in hindsight it's mostly been because of turn 0 through to turn 2.

If I've roflstomped a win, it's been because my opponent messed up at that early stage and I got it right.

When I watch YouTube videos of good players it's that set up and start of game I find most informative as I try to improve my game.

Set up and initial approach is where many games are won and lost yet it seems we don't talk about it as much as other aspects.

Excellent article. Most games can be won or lost before the initial engagement simply due to these factors.

One thing I think you glossed over: speed. The line is important, but so is how fast you go along it and when you commit to a certain line. The Red Rebels, for example, kept up a pretty high speed, which paid off by allowing them to force an engagement on their terms. On the other hand, keeping a low speed keeps your options open, which in turn makes you harder to predict. You don't want to commit to an attack line until it gives you the upper hand, but you don't want to stay uncommitted and allow your opponent to gain the advantage.

In a game with less repositioning the opponent who successfully navigated the asteroids first most often wins as they are free to re-engage as they wish while the other player has fewer options. This was a big thing in wave 1-2 and still has its merits.

I would like to see similar things but only one engagement at a time; there is too much irrelevant clutter to each match up to plot out 3 moves ahead.

Excellent article. Most games can be won or lost before the initial engagement simply due to these factors.

One thing I think you glossed over: speed. The line is important, but so is how fast you go along it and when you commit to a certain line.

Agreed, though it's inherent in the line concept, as it's always part of your current lines length. Shorter line vs longer ... It's also tied to position, but you're right, it's very important in openings.

Great article! It would be interesting to try this out at the standard 100 points. Obviously the jump up to 100 would be big in terms of planing maneuvers, but I think that it would be really benefial to see how different popular lists would work with this.

Not to derail the thread but Twitch should totally add a 'sketch' ability so stream commentators can do this sort of replay/line prediction on a live stream. I could see that being the future for competitive table-top and video game live streams, follows the same trends of more traditional sports broadcasting.

I would like to see similar things but only one engagement at a time; there is too much irrelevant clutter to each match up to plot out 3 moves ahead.

My thought on this as well. If the three battles are displayed side by side on seperate boards it would be much easier to track the attack lines and compare the movements each round.

I would like to see similar things but only one engagement at a time; there is too much irrelevant clutter to each match up to plot out 3 moves ahead.

My thought on this as well. If the three battles are displayed side by side on seperate boards it would be much easier to track the attack lines and compare the movements each round.

You're welcome to have at it, I'll keep it in mind when I look at turret turret battles. There's so much to look at about the game openings, but I've not the time

I didn't find it difficult to follow. So, I may be in the minority, but I'm happy for you to just keep doing what you're doing.