Does the text of a Herald (or a Guardian?) continue to apply during the Final Battle?

The King In Yellow Herald with Glaaki is the only instance I can actually find that it would matter either way ...

Sorry for the double post. Don't know how it happened ...

Heralds and Guardians are discarded when the AO awakens. However, some heralds put into play effects that target final combat. With the King in Yellow herald, none of the blight cards are discarded, and many of them could affect final combat. But the KiY herald itself would be gone, so you couldn't get any more blights during combat, even if the terror level increased somehow.

Tibs said:

I couldn't find that in the rules anywhere ... ?

Found it! Interesting inconsistency in the rules ...

On the King In Yellow rules sheet, it does indeed say to return the Herald to the box when the Ancient One wakes up. However in the Kingsport Horror rules book (where I was looking originally), it doesn't mention that at all. Nor does it mention it in the Black Goat Of The Woods rules or the Innsmouth rules.

I think this is in definite need of an FAQ entry!

Wait a cotton-picking minute!

There are several Heralds which have an effect on the Ancient One AFTER the AO wakes up ... ! So you CAN'T return the Herald to the box when the AO wakes up, otherwise that particular part of their texts become completely useless!

Stenun said:

Several being 2 (Dagon and Hydra) I take it? Also, they don't have an effect after the GOO wakes up as you say, just when Cthulhu wakes up .

Dagon:

"If Cthulhu is the Ancient One, his combat rating is improved by -1 (to -7). When Cthulhu awakens, add up the total toughness of any monsters with the plus dimensional symbol in play. The investigators must inflict that many extra successes on Cthulhu in order to defeat him. "

First sentence is in effect as soon as Cthulhu is comboed with Dagon/Hydra and remains so (but since I don't want to make a correction on the Cthulhu sheet, the mod is printed on the Herald). Second part you check when he wakes up, there is no further effect for later, not on Dagon, not on Hydra, both kick in when you start final combat.

Dam said:

I would dispute that. It doesn't say it permanently effects Cthulhu, it just says it effects him. So when it leaves play, so does the modifier. Same with Sealing The Beasts Power - once the Mission is complete you must still hold on to the card for it to have any effect.

And not just Dagon and Hydra, but The Dark Pharaoh Herald and the Dunwich Horror herald, too.

To me, those all are just something you add when the GOO wakes up, no different than R-T getting extra doomers for the Cultists on its sheet. After that, their effects are in play, Herald(s) is tossed.

And Missions (also Tasks but irrelevant) are returned to the box once completed, but their effect, if any remains.

Dam said:

The "f Cthulhu is the Ancient One, his combat rating is improved by -1" text is worded as a constant modifier. Therefore surely only applicable while the card is in play. It's even applicable before Cthulhu wakes up, although somewhat irrelevant at that point.

But the rest of the text specifically says "When Cthulhu wakes up ... " so yes, certainly those parts of the text you do once and then move on.

Stenun said:

At the start of the game, check for GOO, if Cthulhu, combat rating is -7 (-8 if you use both), if not, ignore. Once set, it doesn't change (barring Sealing the Beast's Power). And the -7/-8 would apply if you get the GOO-fight OW card in R'lyeh I think. Sealing the Beast's Power is applicable even after the card is returned to the box, Rumors stay away even after Purifying the Town is returned to the box, so why would Cthulhu's mod back down?

I'd reckon that just because a rule was different between two books, it's not a safe indicator that: A) the rule has been officially changed, or B) the rule is supposed to be different for the heralds that came with that expansion.

The "discard when awoken" rule came first, and none of the designers have come out to officially clarify that it's been changed, so I assume that the rule's exclusion was just a typo.

Yes, Stenun, there are multiple heralds that affect final combat, but those effects are clearly listed on the herald sheet, and their effects are usually modifiers put into play immediately when the AO awakens. The herald should still be discarded and none of its other effects should take place.

For example, if you're using the Dark Pharaoh herald and Nyarlathotep, if Nyar awakens, he will get a boost from the herald based on the number of Masks in play. However, you would no longer receive stamina damage from being cursed, nor would an investigator become cursed or lose sanity when another investigator gives him an exhibit/unique item.

Stenun said:

And yet...after anyone fights Cthulhu one-on-one due to the Dark Pharaoh's dual-color gate card, everyone tells me that Cthulhu's Final Battle damage (to Max San/Stam) is permanent, even though the Cthulhu AO card is most assuredly no longer "in play".

Well, you've confused the hell out of me, Stenum. I really have no idea what anyone wants anymore. FAQ!!!

jgt7771 said:

It's one of those things where the only sane answer is to say "Fantasy Flight screwed up" - just not all that much.

It looks to me like one of the 'design rules' for AH game effects is that they always have a marker or an indicator of some kind, so that you can tell that the effect is there. (Explored markers, closed markers, etc, etc). Usually the game is great at this; you can get up from the table and walk away and come back years later and the exact state of play has been recorded. The violations of these principle on official cards are so rare that it makes me think they're accidental - or maybe the designers (quite understandably) just decided that sometimes they didn't care. There are a few cards which cause permanent or fixed-duration effects but which are then discarded, and you're expected to just remember that the effect is continuing. Changes to maximum sanity and stamina are the most common form of this, and Cthulhu is the most obvious example. But there's other stuff: if a Mythos card improves a monster's toughness, and you kill that monster, it's worth the extra toughness when you spend it, even if the Mythos card subsequently goes away.

This is why I'm always complaining whenever someone's custom cards mess around with maximum sanity or stamina without providing a way of remembering it. I hate cards that do stuff like that! Hate hate hate! Especially the Dark Man of Wizard's Hill! What a bastard!

Although if you do fight Cthulhu in Rlyeh and survive, it is good fun to try to survive the rest of the game with san/stam 1/1.

"But there's other stuff: if a Mythos card improves a monster's toughness, and you kill that monster, it's worth the extra toughness when you spend it, even if the Mythos card subsequently goes away."

Actually that's not true. You have it backwards. If you kill a monster, and the Mythos card comes out that improves its toughness, you get to spend the token as if it had the increased toughness.

If the Mythos card is out that improves a monster's toughness and you kill it, then then Mythos card goes away, the toughness of the monster goes back to the original toughness if you spend the token.

jgt7771 said: