Imagine if other competitive events behaved like the militant casual - "Oh the Patriots were off-sides? No prob we'll decline the penalty, we don't need that 1st down that badly".

And something else some people don't get... The stakes don't mean nearly as much to some of us as the level of competition. I didn't go to regionals so I could play a couple games of X-Wing. I went because I was looking for a high level of competition. I wanted to test my X-Wing chops against some of the best in the region and see how I compared. I came in 22nd overall in a field of 80+, and I did so with no help. It would of been nice to get a prize, but I'm quite proud of my ranking since I earned it. A price would also only be valuable because it would of meant I beat some really good players to earn that.

Honestly, between gas, lunch, entry, ect... I could of bought more tokens from Applied Perspective then I would of won at regionals, so it's not about the bling, it's about what the bling represents.

When I'm playing competitively I ask for no quarter and give none. I'd never ask the other guy if I can fix a mistake. I own it, and try to recover from it. I want to win because I played my best, not because I played ok and the other guy let me get away with things.

If it was about what the trophy/prize represents, then you would not let an opponent fly off the table on the first turn as a result of placing a ship backward.

Think about attending the highlest level tournament where a title and, according to some, bragging rights are on the line. Imagine that your first game starts with you opponent placing all of his ships backward on his deployment edge. The TO yells to begin, and you shake you opponents hand and say, "Next time be more careful - I win." Now imagine that the same thing happens in the next game. And then the same in the next game. That exact sequence repeats itself through the elimination rounds and you win. You now have the title and the bragging rights, but what are they worth? You did not outsmart your opponents and you did not outplay them in any real aspect of the game. Their failure was not a calculated judgment that was off or even a brash move that did not work out. Their error was not in strategy or tactics. You won based on the X-Wing equivalent of pulling one's car up to the wrong side of the gas pump. What does the title mean then?

Imagine if other competitive events behaved like the militant casual - "Oh the Patriots were off-sides? No prob we'll decline the penalty, we don't need that 1st down that badly".

I actually want to expound on something in my above post.

The reason why IMO we have these discussions so often and have the same people saying the same things, is because of a diametrically opposed foundational view of X-Wing and perhaps games in general.

One camp tends to be of same opinion that I have. I'd rather lose than win because the other guy helped me. The other camp tends to be of the opinion that they would rather lose than win because the other guy made a mistake.

If I set my dial wrong on turn 2 and flew my 60 point fan Han off the table. I'd never accept the offer of letting me keep it, I'd rather lose than win with the * that letting me keep it would be.

But other people feel the opposite, they view winning when the other guy flys his chubby Chewie off the table on turn 2 to taint the win for them.

There is quite frankly no way to reconcile these opinions. So it becomes a huge issue when the second type of player makes a mistake that they'd forgive themselves but they're playing the first type. It's not a matter of poor sportsmanship, because the way the first type would behave doesn't change depending on who made the mistake. But it's understandable why the second type has issues, because what they consider fair, is not the same for both players.

Now if you're the type of player who expects to be forgiven of your mistakes, but pounces on the mistakes of others... Then that is the epitome of a poor sport.

What does the title mean then?

Well considering that would mean playing in some sort of blind people only league... Not much.

If it was about what the trophy/prize represents, then you would not let an opponent fly off the table on the first turn as a result of placing a ship backward.

Think about attending the highlest level tournament where a title and, according to some, bragging rights are on the line. Imagine that your first game starts with you opponent placing all of his ships backward on his deployment edge. The TO yells to begin, and you shake you opponents hand and say, "Next time be more careful - I win." Now imagine that the same thing happens in the next game. And then the same in the next game. That exact sequence repeats itself through the elimination rounds and you win. You now have the title and the bragging rights, but what are they worth? You did not outsmart your opponents and you did not outplay them in any real aspect of the game. Their failure was not a calculated judgment that was off or even a brash move that did not work out. Their error was not in strategy or tactics. You won based on the X-Wing equivalent of pulling one's car up to the wrong side of the gas pump. What does the title mean then?

If you placed your ships properly and your opponent(s) didn't, then you've definitely outsmarted them. It might not be a nice way to win, but if someone is sloppy in an event it's no one's fault but their own.

If it was about what the trophy/prize represents, then you would not let an opponent fly off the table on the first turn as a result of placing a ship backward.

Think about attending the highlest level tournament where a title and, according to some, bragging rights are on the line. Imagine that your first game starts with you opponent placing all of his ships backward on his deployment edge. The TO yells to begin, and you shake you opponents hand and say, "Next time be more careful - I win." Now imagine that the same thing happens in the next game. And then the same in the next game. That exact sequence repeats itself through the elimination rounds and you win. You now have the title and the bragging rights, but what are they worth? You did not outsmart your opponents and you did not outplay them in any real aspect of the game. Their failure was not a calculated judgment that was off or even a brash move that did not work out. Their error was not in strategy or tactics. You won based on the X-Wing equivalent of pulling one's car up to the wrong side of the gas pump. What does the title mean then?

It means I'm dreaming or have crossed into the Twilight Zone or something, because that ridiculous a string of events is never going to happen.

Golfers certainly don't mean to land their balls in the drink, but sometimes it happens and when it does there are no do-overs, right? ice skaters don't mean to fall during their routine at the Olympics, but when it happens it hurts their scores, right? Why is this any different?

It's not any different.

But it's also not exactly the same.

When a golfer plays a round with his mates and has a few beers and a nice day out, he's not so strict with the rules. When he plays the US Open, it's a very different thing.

But the US Open IS a very different thing from a casual game with friends. It's ~$2,000,000 different, in fact. I can understand why a players attitude and behaviour would change when something like that is on the line.

A game of X Wing at worlds is no different to a game at your local store on a random week-night. Apart from a handful of cheap plastic and cardboard, there is NOTHING at stake. I can't understand why a players attitude and behaviour would change when all that's on the line are the prizes in a tournament kit.

So what you're saying is, there is a line in which you would sell out your Fly Casual beliefs, and become like everyone you're arguing with. Just the financial gain hasn't gotten high enough for you yet.

You honestly don't think winning at Nationals or Worlds carries more prestige and accomplishment than winning a game in your friend's basement?

It doesn't carry enough prestige and accomplishment to make me change the way I play.

No where near enough for that.

You really don't get that just because it's all about the all mighty dollar for you, that isn't the driving force behind everyone else.

So you're saying that because "there's nothing at stake", people have a free ride to be careless with their dials?

Nooo! That's not at all what I'm saying.

What I'm asking is why someone would let it slide in a casual game, but not at a tournament?

Like this guy:

At a National event, yah, I'd probably fly it off the board...

Casual games, certainly let him change it!

Is the prize at stake really worth so much that you'd change the way you'd play?

I see it time and time again. "I'd never let that happen in a tournament, but in a casual game it's no big deal".

The standard you hold people to in casual games is the same standard you should hold people to in competitive games. Because the rewards for winning a competitive game are not so high that they should change the way you play.

I'm a casual gamer. But I never ask nor expect favours from my opponents when I make mistakes, because it's not fair to ask my opponent to forgive something that he doesn't have to. He might want to, and my opponents often do want to forgive. Sure, take that action you forgot, they say. But the choice should be 100% theirs with no obligation put on them from me. And at the same time I'm more than happy to be forgiving myself. We've all got limits as to how kind and forgiving we want to be, though. No one wants to just throw the game in the first turn to give their opponent a crushing victory. Likewise, I don't think anyone would force an opponent to fly their ship off the board in the first turn if they accidentally deployed it backwards. We all fall somewhere in between on the spectrum of 'adherence to the rules'. We've all got our own interpretations of what is acceptable and what isn't, and the point of this discussion isn't some **** waving contest of 'my interpretation is more valid than yours!'

My point is that wherever on the spectrum you fall, however kind or generous or ruthless you want to be, you should always stay true to that. Deliberately being more relaxed when there are no prizes on the line tells me that you value the prizes more than you value other things.

That if nothing were on the line, you'd act differently, but because you might have a chance to win some plastic or cardboard, you're going to act this way...

That's not something to be proud of.

If you can stand up with your hand on your heart and say that you always maintain the same level of generosity, no matter what's at stake during the game, then that is something to be proud of.

That would be something to be proud of, but as you've already established you wouldn't maintain that same level of generosity if the money was there.

At least everyone is honest about the fact that they treat casual and competitive differently, because they are. Prize pool is irrelevant. a Tournament is where people go to prove themselves and test their skill. If you are in a competitive level and can't be bothered to double check things, and know the rules. Then you will be punished. This isn't poor sportsmanship.

What does the title mean then?

Well considering that would mean playing in some sort of blind people only league... Not much.

It means I'm dreaming or have crossed into the Twilight Zone or something, because that ridiculous a string of events is never going to happen.

It is a hypothetical designed to test a conclusion. If you, the average X-Wing player, couldn't see that, then maybe a handful of X-Wing players not seeing the incorrect orientation of their ships isn't that unreasonable to imagine.

What does the title mean then?

Well considering that would mean playing in some sort of blind people only league... Not much.

Dodge the question if you want. You insinuated that letting some fly off the table due to mistakenly deploying backward would not tarnish whatever winnimg that game meant. I don't believe that you actually think that. So, do you?

It depends, if you knowingly watch them do it, then yes. It is a hollow victory. However if you legitimately were not aware until it was too late. Then that is on the other player. Player B setting his dial and flying off the board turn 2 or even 1. That's on them.

Imagine if other competitive events behaved like the militant casual - "Oh the Patriots were off-sides? No prob we'll decline the penalty, we don't need that 1st down that badly".

I mean, False Equivalence Is False and all, but there've been several incidents in professional soccerball where a team has scored in an "unfair" manner (like, attempting to give the ball back to the opposition after an injury stoppage and it's accidentally flown in) where the scoring team have just stood back and let the side that conceded just run up the pitch and score a "free" goal. So, y'know. "Wanting To Win The Right Way" is A Thing at all levels of competition.

Yeah and I don't disagree with you that much. Except for the fact that you've given a false equivalent yourself here. If I'm playing you, and I fly my own ship off the board - there is NOTHING unfair about that. What would be unfair, is if I couldn't reach the ship, and asked you to move it for me, and you knocked it off the base, broke it, and called the TO to get me disqualified because of the ship no longer fitting on the base - since YOU were the one who broke it. But suppose your goalie's shoelaces become undone and he falls flat on his face while the ball is incomming and the team scores as a result - In the world cup no less - well that was a mistake, but that mistake is gonna cost them a point.

At a certain level of play it all boils down to mistakes. Just about any build is capable of winning. It boils down to who makes certain mistakes. Target lock the wrong ship, plan the wrong move, take the wrong action, or elect to give your opponent initiative when you should have chosen it for yourself... Any of these mistakes can end up costing you the game.

And for the record, I'm a really nice guy to play against. I DO fly casual, and usually play X-Wing for the fun of the game. It's like once every year or two that i'll actually go to a regional - and on that ONE day I'll play by the rules to the best of my ability and expect everyone to do the same. Every other day I'm flying casual. Alot of times I actually find myself playing "teaching" games - weather it's a beginner or someone an established player who is just lacking in some areas, I'll actually offer advice and reminders.

But it's a hypothetical so far outside the realm of possibility that it doesn't even merit considering.

It is a hypothetical designed to test a conclusion. If you, the average X-Wing player, couldn't see that, then maybe a handful of X-Wing players not seeing the incorrect orientation of their ships isn't that unreasonable to imagine.

Your question is too far out there. The original question in this thread was at a World's tournament. If someone everyone who qualified for WORLDS and made it there, ended up not even knowing how to play the game, to such an extent that they ALL placed their ships backwards, (or effectively all forfeited), then that would bo SO bizarre, that winning or losing wouldn't even factor in - I (or anyone else for that matter) would end up winning, but probably would immediatley freak out, fearing they were being part of some huge prank - or worse we'd check ourselves into a mental institution because we'd have lost our minds. We can not give you a more realistic answer to this situation because it is just too far gone.

What is more realistic is that there will be a handful or novice players who manage to get to Worlds. I believe they do have some open signups - so if you are going to face a novice player it will likely be in the 1st round. 2nd round after all the regional champs enter the tournament, this would be a virtual impossibility.(Having everyone turn their ships backwards , I mean).

So let's assume I face a new player at the first round of Worlds - this new player just got into the game and happened to think Worlds would be a good 1st tournament. And lets assume she sets up all of her ships the wrong way, and flies them off the board first turn. Any given sunday I'd correct her during setup - but considering I probably spent about $1,000 bucks or more to get all the way out here and compete at this level, I'm going to allow her to lose on turn one. - THEN however, considering we have 55 more minutes to spare, I'll offer to play her in another match for fun during the downtime. This way she at least gets to play a game for round 1.

What does the title mean then?

Well considering that would mean playing in some sort of blind people only league... Not much.

Dodge the question if you want. You insinuated that letting some fly off the table due to mistakenly deploying backward would not tarnish whatever winnimg that game meant. I don't believe that you actually think that. So, do you?

It means I'm dreaming or have crossed into the Twilight Zone or something, because that ridiculous a string of events is never going to happen.

It is a hypothetical designed to test a conclusion. If you, the average X-Wing player, couldn't see that, then maybe a handful of X-Wing players not seeing the incorrect orientation of their ships isn't that unreasonable to imagine.

Do ship base templates have a clearly marked front and back on them? They sure do!

Do the players playing in an event (or even casually if we really want to get nitpicky here) have the capability to look down at the board when placing their ships? They sure do!

Honestly, I don't get why you are turning this into some kind of witch hunt here.

So what you're saying is, there is a line in which you would sell out your Fly Casual beliefs, and become like everyone you're arguing with. Just the financial gain hasn't gotten high enough for you yet.

There are two types of people in this world; people who appreciate nuance, and people who cling to intellectually dishonest notions of dividing the world into binaries.

So what you're saying is, there is a line in which you would sell out your Fly Casual beliefs, and become like everyone you're arguing with. Just the financial gain hasn't gotten high enough for you yet.

There are two types of people in this world; people who appreciate nuance, and people who cling to intellectually dishonest notions of dividing the world into binaries.

No there's actually 10 types of people in this world. Those would understand binary and those who don't.

Dodge the question if you want.

It's not a question worth answering, because it's complete and utter nonsense.

Your question is too far out there.

Besides, it is an exceptionally simple question. Imaging you won Worlds as a result of each of your opponents accidentally deploying backward. What would that win mean to you?

Dodge the question if you want.

It's not a question worth answering, because it's complete and utter nonsense.

Again, you say that you are more about the value of the win than the prize. But, your conclusion regarding this discussion means that winning when your opponent deployed backward doesn't destroy the meaning of a win. I don't believe that those two thing are compatible. Do you?

the you are capable of imagining this scenario.

It's not worth it. The very idea that everyone I face at the Worlds would make the same mistake goes beyond unlikely and into the realm of ludicrous.

Might as well ask what the number 37 tastes like.

Then you are not umderstanding the point of the hypothetical, which is to show that you aren't thinking. You value the meaning of the win but would hold someone to flying off om the first turn due to deploying backward? That is even more rediculous than the hypothetical.

the you are capable of imagining this scenario.

Might as well ask what the number 37 tastes like.

Dante

Then you are not umderstanding the point of the hypothetical

The point of a hypothetical is to create a situation that actually resembles reality. Yours doesn't it's simply absurd and not worth answering.

Now if the question is, what would I do if that happened in a single game at Worlds, that might actually be worth discussing.

In that case I think I'd be inclined to let the person simply rotate the ships rather than lose the game. But that like the question in the OP is really up to each person to answer, and the answer isn't subject to the approval of anyone here.

Then you are not umderstanding the point of the hypothetical, which is to show that you aren't thinking. You value the meaning of the win but would hold someone to flying off om the first turn due to deploying backward? That is even more rediculous than the hypothetical.

The hypothetical is so ridiculous that it invites ridiculous answers. If I'm playing at a competitive event and all of my opponents decide to deploy their ships backwards, knowingly or not, looks like it wasn't my day to make the mistakes and I'm going to take the win and have a great day. Then after the game if my opponent was so inclined I would show them their mistake to increase their understanding of the game.

Also - for the love of all things holy and sacred if you're going to be attempting advanced sentence structure and engage in some good ole' ad hominum action then at least spell correctly, for your own sake if not mine.

Okay, to address this "hypothetical"...

In football, it's not illegal to have 12 men on the field until the ball is snapped. If you hustle the extra guy off before that, hey, dumb mistake, but not a foul.

Setting every single ship up backwards is the equivalent. The game hasn't started yet. There is no game state to disrupt. So tell your opponent to turn their ships around and start the game.

Setting every single ship up backwards is the equivalent.

Plus that's not even the equivalent of what the OP brought up. Setting up all your ships backwards isn't really a in game mistake, it's closer as you said to a 12th man on the field.

In that case the case of ships facing the wrong way, the game is over as soon as it starts, there was effectively no game played at all. That person had zero chance to win the game.

This is not the same thing as flying one of your ships, even if it's 60% of your list off the table on turn 2.