The last 3 or 4 pages of this thread have been a pleasure to read.. Fair and honest debate without the name calling and character assassinations.

the correct course of action to display good sportsmanship whenever possible.

I'd debate that allowing someone to cheat is ever good sportsmanship. But I won't berate you for feeling that way. It's something I think people could agree to disagree on at any rate. The key is the attitude behind it, considering the following.

"Hah you **** newb!!! You just lost the game, because I'm going to **** you now."

and

"Sorry, but the rules are clear, you have to perform the maneuver you set your dial to. Myself I always turn it to face the way the ship is, so I don't pick the wrong direction. But game isn't over so let's see how it goes."

My issue is posts like the one that claims making the guy fly off the board is by default poor sportsmanship, because while it may not be good, that doesn't make it bad. And anyone with the attitude like that person is what I consider as much a WAAC as anyone else. Because let's be honest, if really don't care about winning or losing then there's no reason to get upset when you lose because of that kind of mistake.

I find that I have to agree with this sentiment behind this post, even if the first sentence is a little on the harsh side.

Yeah, it is put a little harsh but I stand by it.

Good sportsmanship is losing gracefully as well.

If you make a mistake, accept it, take ownership of it and learn from it.

If the opponent lets you correct the mistake, be grateful, express that and if you win acknowledge that it was only by his good graces that you did so.

Be humble.

And, as VanorDM already wrote, if faced with this, be clear what you are doing and why. Don't gloat, but don't be too apologetic either. No matter what your decision, the mistake maker has little to no rights.

Now, to change the pace a bit.

Tournament.

Player A makes an obvious mistake turning right off the edge he is flush against. No doubt this was not an error in judging the distance, nobody would consiously pick that maneuver. It is the opening moves of the game, no shots have even been fired.

Player B, recognizing the error and judging the impact decides to allow Player A to execute the intended, rather than the picked maneuver.

Player C, who is watching, knows he doesn't want Player A in the following round. Should he call the TO and push for an RAW ruling, thereby eliminating a future opponent?

Some of my favorite games of X-Wing have been competitive ones with no take backs against someone flying WAAC AKA within the rules.

Better yet, the next time you are in a high level tournament and someone does that - and if they have the nerve to ask you to let them correct their mistake - You don't have to answer one way or the other. Simply say :

"I don't want to make that call, - lets call the TO over and let them make a ruling". =P

Now, to change the pace a bit.

Tournament.

Player A makes an obvious mistake turning right off the edge he is flush against. No doubt this was not an error in judging the distance, nobody would consiously pick that maneuver. It is the opening moves of the game, no shots have even been fired.

Player B, recognizing the error and judging the impact decides to allow Player A to execute the intended, rather than the picked maneuver.

Player C, who is watching, knows he doesn't want Player A in the following round. Should he call the TO and push for an RAW ruling, thereby eliminating a future opponent?

Good question.

My opinion is, No. Player C should concentrate on her game only. She should not interfere, or call a judge for a game that she isn't playing in. However, if she notices something more blatant and deliberate, such as one player re-adding shield tokens to a shield-less ship while the opponent is distracted, then by all means speak up - but if these two players are agreeing about something, Player C should keep her judgement to herself and remember it in case she faces said player.

Player C should keep her judgement to herself and remember it in case she faces said player.

I agree, it's not Player C's place to say anything really. Unless there's some sort of conclusion going on. Such as seeing Player A set up so all his ships fly off the table, because he wants player B to win.

Another interesting addition to that question... What should the TO do if he happened to be watching the game and saw it.

I've been considering that for a while now and I'm not quite sure what I would do if I were the TO.

I'm going to muse a bit over that...

On the one hand as a TO I think it's required that you enforce the rules as you see them. If as a TO you saw someone attack a ship with rebel captive, and the other guy said 'nah it's cool you can skip the stress' I'd be inclined to correct that.

Skipping the stress isn't an option, and neither side can make it optional per the rules. Performing the maneuver on the dial is the same way. There is no option in the rules to allow someone to perform an maneuver other than the one they reveal.

So I'm inclined to think that as a TO I might have to step in and disallow that. It is in a way a form of conclusion.

Firstly, it´s ok what you (OP) have done.

I would do the same thing, but I wouldn´t expect that someone would do the same thing for me

Secondly, it also depends on your opponents. I know two guys (very good friends in real life), who are the typical "win at every cost" guys. Against one of them, I would have let Soontir flying out of map. I would never throw the first stone, but this is the way the choose to go a long time ago, therefore they also will get the full response based on their "rules". Sometimes it´s sad, but like good experiences are motivating to do good things too, it is also true for the opposite. Such guys will never reward your kindness, they will say "thank you" but inwardly laugh about you and your "stupidness"

Thing is though, *if* tournaments were a bit more forgiving

They're semi-forgiving now really. I think the problem is that some people get confused on what is truly a missed opportunity, and what isn't.

If someone moves a ship and takes no action for it. They can if the other person allows take their action later on. They could even boost or barrel roll if the other guy allows it. The whole point is that it's all at the discretion of the other player.

However in the OP's case, there is no rule that allows someone to change the dial after the fact, it's not something that's at the discretion of the players. That said I may allow it myself if I it happened. My issue isn't with people who do that, my issue is when people try to say this should be the default behavior. And make no mistake, most people think good sportsmanship should be the default behavior.

if there was a 'illegal set up' clause to prevent first turn fly offs or wrong direction start ups would that bring in more players than it annoyed?

Honestly I've never seen anyone set up backwards. I don't think it's actually an issue. As far as first turn fly offs... You make a rule for that, and then people want it for 2nd turn, and then 3rd turn, and then they'll think it should apply when it's the last ship on the table, ect...

I've been to 8 or so tournaments so far, store championships, regionals, local ones, and play every other wednesday in a league. I've seen one person that I'd consider to be a truly poor sport in that time. I think far too many people are expecting behavior that just isn't that common.

The point is, some people want to see this in a black and white only. It is not in the rules not allowed! People are not understanding there is a lot of gray, especially in a game like this. It really is not a slippery slope, just some common sense and a lot of people do not like that it seems.

Let's say the opponent put the wrong pilot on the ship and noticed right after time was started. I am sure 1/2 would say, DQ-ed! Pay more attention next time! Would they be correct and more within the rules? Probably.

However, the other 1/2 would say no problem just fix it as they can see the bigger picture here- it is just a game and we want a 'fair' match with.

Now let say this happened on turn 8, would the situation change if firing was out of order etc? Of course.

the correct course of action to display good sportsmanship whenever possible.

I'd debate that allowing someone to cheat is ever good sportsmanship. But I won't berate you for feeling that way. It's something I think people could agree to disagree on at any rate.

While saying that this is "allowing someone to cheat" is probably literally true, I think it's probably a little bit of a harsh way of putting it. Maybe that's the intention, but in this case I'd happily allow someone to "cheat" because I still think it's within the spirit of the game.

I completely agree with the rest of your post, the matter in which it is approached is extremely important no matter what your decision is.

I find that I have to agree with this sentiment behind this post, even if the first sentence is a little on the harsh side.

Yeah, it is put a little harsh but I stand by it.

Good sportsmanship is losing gracefully as well.

If you make a mistake, accept it, take ownership of it and learn from it.

If the opponent lets you correct the mistake, be grateful, express that and if you win acknowledge that it was only by his good graces that you did so.

Be humble.

And, as VanorDM already wrote, if faced with this, be clear what you are doing and why. Don't gloat, but don't be too apologetic either. No matter what your decision, the mistake maker has little to no rights.

Now, to change the pace a bit.

Tournament.

Player A makes an obvious mistake turning right off the edge he is flush against. No doubt this was not an error in judging the distance, nobody would consiously pick that maneuver. It is the opening moves of the game, no shots have even been fired.

Player B, recognizing the error and judging the impact decides to allow Player A to execute the intended, rather than the picked maneuver.

Player C, who is watching, knows he doesn't want Player A in the following round. Should he call the TO and push for an RAW ruling, thereby eliminating a future opponent?

I agree with the majority of this post as well and in fact I'm glad you brought this question up because I actually came back onto the forum tonight specifically to mention this type of situation. I don't think there is an actual easy answer to this one, and while I personally don't think it's Player C's job to police other games... it probably is the job of the TO to step in an enforce rules in these situations.

This also happily solves the issue of whether or not it's good or bad sportsmanship to allow these mistakes to be corrected as it becomes the decision of an impartial authority figure.

I'm a little soft and more of a casual mindset - and I would like to make it clear that by saying this I am not accusing the more competitive players as having BADWRONGFUN - as such would prefer the TO leave the situation alone so that it can be resolved as if the mistake had not occurred, but I couldn't blame the judge in the slightest for enforcing a rule that could possibly end up having a great impact on the results of the tournament overall.

I think the real thing in question here is how people play differently at higher levels of competition. I certainly try to. Granted I'm trying to do this thing now where I hold myself to a "tournament standard", even during casual play. The only exception is when something is brand new and we are collectively trying to figure it out. IE when teh gozanti comes out, I'm sure it'll be a few games before we get "docking" done correctly across the board - so I'm willing to both correct my own mistakes, and allow my opponent to do the same for awhile - because we are learning.

Same goes with other games. Won some new Armada Wave 2 ships recently, so I've been playtesting them, new mechanics lately. Lots of mistakes. I'm happy to correct them when they are "new" rules, and new mechanics. Tournaments, especially high level tournaments, to me, are the highest form of competition, where you absolutely must bring your A-Game - and sometimes these high level tournaments aren't even fun! They can be mega stressful! Which in turn, can cause more mistakes!

Sometimes I'll just say "Screw it - gonna have a BLAST at this tournament" - and I'll bring a fun list, play it casually, make mistakes, lose, but have fun the whole time. Then other times I'll take it more serious - so I can totally understand both sides.

I'd like more "Fun" tournaments. Very casually minded, nothing significant as a prize... maybe even "Bring multiple lists", and fly different stuff each round. That'd be a blast. This game IS fun - and MOST of the outlets for the game are fun.

The point is, some people want to see this in a black and white only.

It is black and white. The 'spirit of the rules' is highly subjective and what you're trying to argue is the RAI, and no one but the developers can know what the intention behind the rules are.

Neither side has any authority to declare "I'm going to do X, even though the rules say I can't, because that's part of the spirit of the rules" You either follow the rules or you don't. Any time anyone brings out the 'spirit of the game' that pretty much always means they know the rules don't support it but feel it should be allowed anyway.

There is a point where if both sides agree, the rules can be broken and still have a fair game, but that doesn't change the fact that you are breaking the rules.

Edit: The issue here is that when you're playing at a tournament, everyone needs to be playing by the same rules. Otherwise you no longer really have a fair competition.

Most of what you mention below is really setup errors and not the same thing as turning the wrong way on turn 2.

The point is, some people want to see this in a black and white only.

It is black and white. The 'spirit of the rules' is highly subjective and what you're trying to argue is the RAI, and no one but the developers can know what the intention behind the rules are.

Neither side has any authority to declare "I'm going to do X, even though the rules say I can't, because that's part of the spirit of the rules" You either follow the rules or you don't. Any time anyone brings out the 'spirit of the game' that pretty much always means they know the rules don't support it but feel it should be allowed anyway.

There is a point where if both sides agree, the rules can be broken and still have a fair game, but that doesn't change the fact that you are breaking the rules.

Edit: The issue here is that when you're playing at a tournament, everyone needs to be playing by the same rules. Otherwise you no longer really have a fair competition.

Most of what you mention below is really setup errors and not the same thing as turning the wrong way on turn 2.

While I, for the most part, agree with the rest of your post, I don't think it's particularly crazy to assume that it was not the intention of the developers to fly your ship off the edge of the board in turn one.

I don't think it's particularly crazy to assume that it was not the intention of the developers to fly your ship off the edge of the board in turn one.

I think that is quite possibly the most sub-par thing you can do. But that doesn't mean that the rules don't apply. If they honestly intended for that rule not to apply for the first X turns of the game, they could've worded it accordingly.

Maybe they didn't think it would happen, and let's be clear here, this is an extremely rare case, in the thousand or so games of X-Wing I've played and/or watched I've rarely seen anyone fly off the table. The few times I've seen it, it was in the end game and someone got too close to the edge without realizing it.

It's something super easy to avoid really. So perhaps they just assumed it would happen so rarely that there was no need for a rule. That or perhaps they figure 'hey if you're not paying attention then you get what you get'.

But with that all said... This isn't a question of the spirit of the game, it's a question of if both sides can set aside what the rules say and still have a fair game. In which case I'd say yes they could. What is questionable is if that however would be fair to everyone else playing at the tournament.

Conversely it would suck even worse to be the guy who lost nationals due to mixing up left and right. It would also suck to be the guy who won because their opponent let them redo a total rookie mistake.

Gotta play by the rules. Doesn't mean it has to be a messy affair though.

I don't think it's particularly crazy to assume that it was not the intention of the developers to fly your ship off the edge of the board in turn one.

I think that is quite possibly the most sub-par thing you can do. But that doesn't mean that the rules don't apply. If they honestly intended for that rule not to apply for the first X turns of the game, they could've worded it accordingly.

Exactly. Bad things are allowed to happen in Turn 1. There's no minimum number of turns before you say, "Okay, NOW we're playing a just and noble game, remove the gloves."

After turn 3 though, that's when I start psychological warfare - playing earworms on my phone such as "Call me Maybe" and "All about that Base" . If that doesn't seal my victory, I start flipping tables.

The point is, some people want to see this in a black and white only.

It is black and white. The 'spirit of the rules' is highly subjective and what you're trying to argue is the RAI, and no one but the developers can know what the intention behind the rules are.

Neither side has any authority to declare "I'm going to do X, even though the rules say I can't, because that's part of the spirit of the rules" You either follow the rules or you don't. Any time anyone brings out the 'spirit of the game' that pretty much always means they know the rules don't support it but feel it should be allowed anyway.

There is a point where if both sides agree, the rules can be broken and still have a fair game, but that doesn't change the fact that you are breaking the rules.

Edit: The issue here is that when you're playing at a tournament, everyone needs to be playing by the same rules. Otherwise you no longer really have a fair competition.

Most of what you mention below is really setup errors and not the same thing as turning the wrong way on turn 2.

While I, for the most part, agree with the rest of your post, I don't think it's particularly crazy to assume that it was not the intention of the developers to fly your ship off the edge of the board in turn one.

Exactly, they even explicitly put in text to allow you to complete a legal maneuver if you put down the wrong dial for the wrong ship. They understand stuff happens. Otherwise, other people would scream, "Not in the rules!!!!" even though the maneuver may be legal and affect nothing. People are not getting that part.

Really, if you want a black and white game with clear cut rules your playing the wrong game, play chess. Xwing has a lot of bumps, error, interpretations, gamesmanship etc and it seems to be driving the A types problems when these issues come up and they dont know how to handle the gray unless there is an explicit rule.

Edit: "There is a point where if both sides agree, the rules can be broken and still have a fair game, but that doesn't change the fact that you are breaking the rules."

There is a difference between a unintended "goof" and breaking the rules. You have to look at the situation and the circumstances first or you risk being not in the spirit of the game.

I don't think it's particularly crazy to assume that it was not the intention of the developers to fly your ship off the edge of the board in turn one.

I think that is quite possibly the most sub-par thing you can do. But that doesn't mean that the rules don't apply. If they honestly intended for that rule not to apply for the first X turns of the game, they could've worded it accordingly.

Maybe they didn't think it would happen, and let's be clear here, this is an extremely rare case, in the thousand or so games of X-Wing I've played and/or watched I've rarely seen anyone fly off the table. The few times I've seen it, it was in the end game and someone got too close to the edge without realizing it.

It's something super easy to avoid really. So perhaps they just assumed it would happen so rarely that there was no need for a rule. That or perhaps they figure 'hey if you're not paying attention then you get what you get'.

But with that all said... This isn't a question of the spirit of the game, it's a question of if both sides can set aside what the rules say and still have a fair game. In which case I'd say yes they could. What is questionable is if that however would be fair to everyone else playing at the tournament.

Having someone complete their chosen maneuver that may fly them off the board by either a wrong turn or by improper ship placement still doesn't go against "the spirit of the game" in any way.

What happens when a ship is stressed and the player tries to do another red maneuver? Does the other player say "oh that's a bummer, you obviously didn't intend to do that so go ahead and change it"? No. The rules specifically state that when that happens, the opposing player gets to choose their maneuver.

This really isn't any different. The rules specifically state that when a ship flies off the board, it's treated as being destroyed. EVERYONE LEARNS THIS WHEN THEY GET INTO X-WING. It's not a secret that people spring on unsuspecting players when they least expect it.

Another example: There is a power play in an NHL game. The penalty killers clear from their zone right onto the stick of the opposing goalie. Then, the goalie trips, falls, and in doing so, the puck goes into the net. Does that goal not count? It certainly does. And this something that is completely out of the goalie's control. As opposed to double checking maneuvers and ship placement - which is completely within the confines of a player's control.

One more example: You are driving and talking to your friend who is your passenger, and you are having a good old time. But during your conversation, you didn't see that stop sign that you just went through. You get pulled over, and the cop writes you up a ticket. The cop doesn't say, "well, you clearly didn't *mean* to do that because a big red stop sign is hard to miss, so go on your merry way..." does he/she? Hell no.

Therefore, PLAYERS SHOULD TAKE CAUTION WHEN SETTING MANEUVERS AND PLACING THEIR SHIPS. You all know what happens when you don't, so please stop trying to make the other person look like the bad guy.

PLAYERS SHOULD TAKE CAUTION WHEN SETTING MANEUVERS AND PLACING THEIR SHIPS.

And who knows, I could actually be harsher during casual play. It's nice to have a war story about how I trashed an opponent after he flew his Falcon off the board in round 1. And if there is absolutely nothing at stake, this is easy to do. Casual play can also be an excuse to play particularly cruel, and drink a beer together afterwards.

You all know what happens when you don't, so please stop trying to make the other person look like the bad guy.

PLAYERS SHOULD TAKE CAUTION WHEN SETTING MANEUVERS AND PLACING THEIR SHIPS.

This is quoted for truth, but at the same time, if I force the other player to remove a ship because of that stupid oversight, we both won't have much of a game. That does not seem like an ideal situation to me. And if the other player can still win in spite of starting with one ship less, then I probably didn't deserve to be at that tournament anyway. So I can think of good reasons why I'd let it slide for that occasion.

And who knows, I could actually be harsher during casual play. It's nice to have a war story about how I trashed an opponent after he flew his Falcon off the board in round 1. And if there is absolutely nothing at stake, this is easy to do. Casual play can also be an excuse to play particularly cruel, and drink a beer together afterwards.

You all know what happens when you don't, so please stop trying to make the other person look like the bad guy.

This is what makes the subject so sensitive, right? Namecalling, critique that is taken very personally. Maybe it is good to be reminded that nobody's dignity is on the line here. And while some appear to have no clue what the other is saying now and then, I don't see any bad guys. For what it's worth.

You wouldn't have much of a game either if a player is coming up the side of the board and on turn 3 this player k-turns all of their ships and then, while stressed, k-turns again on turn 4.

This stupid mistake/oversight still doesn't change that you get to choose their maneuvers, and can fly them all off the board if you choose to.

So why should some stupid mistakes get a free pass and others don't? A stupid mistake is a stupid mistake any way you slice it. But when it happens, the player making the mistake should say "my bad", take the consequence, and you can bet they probably wouldn't make that mistake again. Especially if it was in an event. As the saying goes, we learn from our mistakes. But all we are teaching with this whole "you didn't mean it, so change it" attitude is that it's perfectly okay to be careless.

PLAYERS SHOULD TAKE CAUTION WHEN SETTING MANEUVERS AND PLACING THEIR SHIPS.

This is quoted for truth, but at the same time, if I force the other player to remove a ship because of that stupid oversight, we both won't have much of a game. That does not seem like an ideal situation to me. And if the other player can still win in spite of starting with one ship less, then I probably didn't deserve to be at that tournament anyway. So I can think of good reasons why I'd let it slide for that occasion.

And who knows, I could actually be harsher during casual play. It's nice to have a war story about how I trashed an opponent after he flew his Falcon off the board in round 1. And if there is absolutely nothing at stake, this is easy to do. Casual play can also be an excuse to play particularly cruel, and drink a beer together afterwards.

You all know what happens when you don't, so please stop trying to make the other person look like the bad guy.

This is what makes the subject so sensitive, right? Namecalling, critique that is taken very personally. Maybe it is good to be reminded that nobody's dignity is on the line here. And while some appear to have no clue what the other is saying now and then, I don't see any bad guys. For what it's worth.

You wouldn't have much of a game either if a player is coming up the side of the board and on turn 3 this player k-turns all of their ships and then, while stressed, k-turns again on turn 4.

This stupid mistake/oversight still doesn't change that you get to choose their maneuvers, and can fly them all off the board if you choose to.

So why should some stupid mistakes get a free pass and others don't? A stupid mistake is a stupid mistake any way you slice it. But when it happens, the player making the mistake should say "my bad", take the consequence, and you can bet they probably wouldn't make that mistake again. Especially if it was in an event. As the saying goes, we learn from our mistakes. But all we are teaching with this whole "you didn't mean it, so change it" attitude is that it's perfectly okay to be careless.

I find the "I'm doing it for your own good" argument to be the least convincing. The argument about how fair it is to the other players and the tournament in general is far more interesting and less clear.

PLAYERS SHOULD TAKE CAUTION WHEN SETTING MANEUVERS AND PLACING THEIR SHIPS.

This is quoted for truth, but at the same time, if I force the other player to remove a ship because of that stupid oversight, we both won't have much of a game. That does not seem like an ideal situation to me. And if the other player can still win in spite of starting with one ship less, then I probably didn't deserve to be at that tournament anyway. So I can think of good reasons why I'd let it slide for that occasion.

And who knows, I could actually be harsher during casual play. It's nice to have a war story about how I trashed an opponent after he flew his Falcon off the board in round 1. And if there is absolutely nothing at stake, this is easy to do. Casual play can also be an excuse to play particularly cruel, and drink a beer together afterwards.

You all know what happens when you don't, so please stop trying to make the other person look like the bad guy.

This is what makes the subject so sensitive, right? Namecalling, critique that is taken very personally. Maybe it is good to be reminded that nobody's dignity is on the line here. And while some appear to have no clue what the other is saying now and then, I don't see any bad guys. For what it's worth.

You wouldn't have much of a game either if a player is coming up the side of the board and on turn 3 this player k-turns all of their ships and then, while stressed, k-turns again on turn 4.

This stupid mistake/oversight still doesn't change that you get to choose their maneuvers, and can fly them all off the board if you choose to.

So why should some stupid mistakes get a free pass and others don't? A stupid mistake is a stupid mistake any way you slice it. But when it happens, the player making the mistake should say "my bad", take the consequence, and you can bet they probably wouldn't make that mistake again. Especially if it was in an event. As the saying goes, we learn from our mistakes. But all we are teaching with this whole "you didn't mean it, so change it" attitude is that it's perfectly okay to be careless.

I find the "I'm doing it for your own good" argument to be the least convincing. The argument about how fair it is to the other players and the tournament in general is far more interesting and less clear.

How is it not fair? Doesn't Player X have the same option as Player Y to double check things just as much as Player Z and so on? Or do TOs in your area have some kind of law that if you were born on a Sunday through Thursday, then you only have 5 seconds to set your ships/dials and as soon as those dials and bases hit the table, they are locked in with no going back? Seriously, this is starting to get to be a bit much. Ever heard of the phrase, "you snooze, you lose"? Well, it applies here. It may suck for the player that made the bonehead move, but hey, that's the way things go sometimes.