This reminds me of a story I heard about an unpleasant player I faced at Regionals. After the final match had been played (I never made the cut but then I never expected to either) I was speaking to the T/O about the guy, who had made it to the top 8 but then got owned by the eventual winner of the tourney after deploying slow play tactics. My first complaint about the guy was that he had his kid with him. Not that I have anything against kids, but the poor kid was very young and clearly bored, and it was very difficult to concentrate playing against him because every five seconds he wouyld have to stop and shout at the kid for touching a model he shouldn't have or throwing stuff about or just being noisy and demanding. I know other people didn't like it either. Additionally, the guy was just obnoxious to play against.

Anyways, talking to the T/O afterwards it turned out the guy was not only local but a regular at the store. Apparently in a previous tourney, in the first round of the first game of the day, this guy's opponent revealed his Firespray dial to show a 2 turn in the wrong direction which would immediately take him off the board. This was clearly an error, and the opponent therefore asked the guy if he minded using what he'd obviously meant to do (the same turn in the other direction) and the guy said 'no, you have to fly him off the board.'

Turns out that word got around pretty quickly, and suddenly every time for the next few weeks that this guy turned up for a game, everyone was suddenly 'busy' or 'had to go'. Eventually, the T/O took pity and took the guy to one side, explaining why people were avoiding him and advising him to be a bit more sportsmanlike in future. The T/O also told me that he would be having a with the guy again about his kid. For context, there was another kid there that day with his Dad, and they were playing as a father/son team. The guy had called the T/O well in advance and asked if this was cool, and the T/OI had said that the guy would have to ask each opponent on the day, as they may feel an unfair advantage. Nobody did, and that kid was well-behaved, quiet as a mouse and had lots of fun. So it wasn't a case of people hating on my guy just because we were being anti-kids. The T/O said he had no idea that the guy would have his kid with him before he turned up, and he'd had several complaints and grumblings from various people throughout the day about the kid's behaviour.

Long story short, OP did absolutely the right thing, and the same as I myself would do in those circumstances.

I think the fundamental difference here is between the desire for a 'game' or for a 'contest'. They can be the same thing but if its ultra stakes competition (and you can define that yourself) its questionable if it can be both.

edit: like if myself and nine mates have a quick bout of five aside football (soccer) after work its a game, no one care who wins, kicking the ball about is the intention.

However, if we challenge the rival 'airsoft international' magazine to a game and put £50 prize money up all of a sudden its more of a 'match' and a contest isnt it?

Its still *technically* a 'game of football' but your motives for involvement and incentive to win change dramatically.

the slippery slope can be a completely valid argument to make. Considering how many times I've seen people on this forum try to bend the rules or out and out break them, and claim that calling them on it is poor sportsmanship, I have no doubt that they'd do the same thing here.

OP did absolutely the right thing

No he did not, he did what he wanted to do. There is no right and wrong involved in this. There is no single correct answer.

It is not poor sportsmanship to make someone to suffer the consequences of their mistakes.

It is posts like this one, that uses loaded language and is by its very nature judgemental in tone that I have issues with.

I wouldn't bring my kid to a tournament, unless he would be capable to play alone

Also that whole both players have to have fun thing is complete BS.

Remind me not to invite you round to our games night then

Seriously you dont play games to *enjoy* them with the other person?

Also that whole both players have to have fun thing is complete BS.

Remind me not to invite you round to our games night then

Seriously you dont play games to *enjoy* them with the other person?

. The only thing I expect from my opponent at a tournament is they have a decent understanding of the rules and are willing to learn them if they got stuff wrong. They don't have to be nice to me or even respectful. They can be complete ass holes for all I care.

You see i've got better things to do with my weekends then waste it playing a miniatures game with horrible people.

Perhaps im lucky in that i have about 25 or so mates in my area that play and no shortage of games but seriously you'd have to pay me to play games against unpleasant people.

But like i say you obviously get off on the competition/contest element, not the social element of gaming, like you say we're all different and i respect that even if i cant understand why someone would play against an *******.

Anyways, talking to the T/O afterwards it turned out the guy was not only local but a regular at the store. Apparently in a previous tourney, in the first round of the first game of the day, this guy's opponent revealed his Firespray dial to show a 2 turn in the wrong direction which would immediately take him off the board. This was clearly an error, and the opponent therefore asked the guy if he minded using what he'd obviously meant to do (the same turn in the other direction) and the guy said 'no, you have to fly him off the board.'

Turns out that word got around pretty quickly, and suddenly every time for the next few weeks that this guy turned up for a game, everyone was suddenly 'busy' or 'had to go'.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc. There could have been a *ton* of other reasons people started avoiding this guy -- several of them are mentioned as happening in the tournament -- other than not letting someone off the hook for picking the wrong maneuver. And it could have been the way he handled it rather than the fact it happened at all.

like you say we're all different and i respect that even if i cant understand why someone would play against an *******.

I wouldn't if I had the option. But if you enter a tournament you don't always get an option.

Regionals was the largest one I've been to so it's my best example. I played 6 games, ended up going 4-2 with a MoV that put me 22nd out of 84 or so people.

The first 5 games were great. Win or lose I enjoyed them. The people were decent or even fun to play against. There wasn't much in the way of forgiving mistakes, but I went into it expecting it to be that way. It was regionals after all, and again this has for me anyway, nothing to do with the prizes but rather how well I did in the contest.

Even the guy I beat 200-0 was a decent sort. His dice were a bit cold, mine were hot, and I honestly just out flew him.

However the last game was different. The guy got pissy every time he rolled a single blank and went on about how X-Wing is nothing but a dice game, and how if it were just skill he'd be on the top table. Never once said 'nice job' or anything. Towards the end when it was clear I was gonna win, he started talking about how he was done and was going to sell off his collection.

That was not an enjoyable game, although I did get some satisfaction in having a 4-2 record.

But the point is, I didn't let that one bad apple spoil my day, and had fun despite him. I also didn't really have a choice in playing him. It's just something you have to accept when you enter a large tournament. There is a chance you'll end up playing a jerk.

OP did absolutely the right thing

No he did not, he did what he wanted to do. There is no right and wrong involved in this. There is no single correct answer.

It is not poor sportsmanship to make someone to suffer the consequences of their mistakes.

It is posts like this one, that uses loaded language and is by its very nature judgemental in tone that I have issues with.

Diddums. I will just have to try and live with that burden I guess.

I *absolutely* think that in fact it *is* poor sportsmanship to 'make someone suffer the consequences of their mistakes' when those mistakes pertain to a GAME, but then that's just me seeing X Wing as something enjoyable rather than a way of life.

Anyways, talking to the T/O afterwards it turned out the guy was not only local but a regular at the store. Apparently in a previous tourney, in the first round of the first game of the day, this guy's opponent revealed his Firespray dial to show a 2 turn in the wrong direction which would immediately take him off the board. This was clearly an error, and the opponent therefore asked the guy if he minded using what he'd obviously meant to do (the same turn in the other direction) and the guy said 'no, you have to fly him off the board.'

Turns out that word got around pretty quickly, and suddenly every time for the next few weeks that this guy turned up for a game, everyone was suddenly 'busy' or 'had to go'.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc. There could have been a *ton* of other reasons people started avoiding this guy -- several of them are mentioned as happening in the tournament -- other than not letting someone off the hook for picking the wrong maneuver. And it could have been the way he handled it rather than the fact it happened at all.

Yes, there could have been. Except that the T/O had spoken to several people who ha all told him that the incident had become well-known and had left a bad taste, which was why they were all avoiding him.

And sure, it was 100% as much about *how* he went about it as it was about what he had done. First turn of a first round game? Like it would have made ALL the difference to his day?

I think VanorDM that i've seen too much atrocious play running GW tournaments for years that it really coloured my view to a degree.

Its incredibly unfair to tar the xwing organised play community with the same brush but you can see why i'd be reticent to get involved as i only ever saw the 'grand tournaments' at warhammer world as something that caused me grief! In fairness the 'good/friendly' players , well you dont get called over to their tables to sort out blazing rows or to console a grown man who is crying over losing his giant... you know

So given my local crowd (Nottingham UK) seem to be a good crowd and one of my regular gaming mates plays in the store tourneys i may have to bite the bullet and give it a go at the store (and who knows from where thereon). Annoyingly I've tried to take part for about a year now but working in my field means im away (quite often literally in a field) most weekends.

I think the fundamental difference here is between the desire for a 'game' or for a 'contest'. They can be the same thing but if its ultra stakes competition (and you can define that yourself) its questionable if it can be both.

edit: like if myself and nine mates have a quick bout of five aside football (soccer) after work its a game, no one care who wins, kicking the ball about is the intention.

However, if we challenge the rival 'airsoft international' magazine to a game and put £50 prize money up all of a sudden its more of a 'match' and a contest isnt it?

Its still *technically* a 'game of football' but your motives for involvement and incentive to win change dramatically.

I can't believe we've actually descended into questioning the definition of "game" here lol - insert Stay On Topic/Thread Derailed meme here.

Oh, hai Google!

Yes, the attitudes and motivations change in both scenarios you outline above. But both are still clearly and inarguably games. Maybe if you reworded the opening statement to be

"I think the fundamental difference here is between the desire for 'entertainment' or for a 'challenge'."

the argument would make more sense, but "game" clearly encapsulates both approaches.

I think the fundamental difference here is between the desire for a 'game' or for a 'contest'. They can be the same thing but if its ultra stakes competition (and you can define that yourself) its questionable if it can be both.

edit: like if myself and nine mates have a quick bout of five aside football (soccer) after work its a game, no one care who wins, kicking the ball about is the intention.

However, if we challenge the rival 'airsoft international' magazine to a game and put £50 prize money up all of a sudden its more of a 'match' and a contest isnt it?

Its still *technically* a 'game of football' but your motives for involvement and incentive to win change dramatically.

I can't believe we've actually descended into questioning the definition of "game" here lol - insert Stay On Topic/Thread Derailed meme here.

I think its actually quite important.

'game' is clearly quite an ambiguous word in this instance as what people expect from a 'game' seems to vary dramatically from

1. i just want to move ships round and win and i dont care if its an appalling experience

all the way to

2. i want to have fun and immerse myself in a shared 'star wars' experience where the rules are a framework and the experience of playing is actually more important than the result.

and everything in between.

Hence bringing up the distinction that might actually make things clearer.

I *absolutely* think that in fact it *is* poor sportsmanship to 'make someone suffer the consequences of their mistakes' when those mistakes pertain to a GAME, but then that's just me seeing X Wing as something enjoyable rather than a way of life.

Congratulations. You've just become the posterboy for the type of militant casual that is the real poor sport that so many of us have issues with.

Your insistence that there is only one correct way to play, intolerance for another point of view, and need to foist your opinion on others is the exact thing I've been talking about this whole thread.

I hope everyone sees that is people like him that are the real issue and the true poor sport here. They are what Sithborg has dubbed the militant casual who use Fly Casual as way to WAAC.

Anyways, talking to the T/O afterwards it turned out the guy was not only local but a regular at the store. Apparently in a previous tourney, in the first round of the first game of the day, this guy's opponent revealed his Firespray dial to show a 2 turn in the wrong direction which would immediately take him off the board. This was clearly an error, and the opponent therefore asked the guy if he minded using what he'd obviously meant to do (the same turn in the other direction) and the guy said 'no, you have to fly him off the board.'

Turns out that word got around pretty quickly, and suddenly every time for the next few weeks that this guy turned up for a game, everyone was suddenly 'busy' or 'had to go'.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc. There could have been a *ton* of other reasons people started avoiding this guy -- several of them are mentioned as happening in the tournament -- other than not letting someone off the hook for picking the wrong maneuver. And it could have been the way he handled it rather than the fact it happened at all.

Yes, there could have been. Except that the T/O had spoken to several people who ha all told him that the incident had become well-known and had left a bad taste, which was why they were all avoiding him.

And sure, it was 100% as much about *how* he went about it as it was about what he had done. First turn of a first round game? Like it would have made ALL the difference to his day?

So for the record Player A made a critical mistake. Player A then asked to break the rules to change it.(it was not offered he specifically asked to break the rules) Player B declined. Then Player A spread word about Player B and the rest of the comunity black listed Player B. Who in this scenario is showing poor sportsmanship.

Does anyone else find it funny that the "poor sports" have never said one negative thing about the others but all the so called "good sports" players all hurl insults and negative comments.

I'm gonna respectable and nice and honestly I don't even need to be that

Actually, yes, yes you do.

the slippery slope can be a completely valid argument to make. Considering how many times I've seen people on this forum try to bend the rules or out and out break them, and claim that calling them on it is poor sportsmanship, I have no doubt that they'd do the same thing here.

It's not a valid argument unless accompanied with evidence that supports the claim that the action or event would necessarily lead to the following events or actions taking place.

OP did absolutely the right thing

No he did not, he did what he wanted to do. There is no right and wrong involved in this. There is no single correct answer.

It is not poor sportsmanship to make someone to suffer the consequences of their mistakes.

It is posts like this one, that uses loaded language and is by its very nature judgemental in tone that I have issues with.

Diddums. I will just have to try and live with that burden I guess.

I *absolutely* think that in fact it *is* poor sportsmanship to 'make someone suffer the consequences of their mistakes' when those mistakes pertain to a GAME, but then that's just me seeing X Wing as something enjoyable rather than a way of life.

Why, if it's a tournament game? Not making mistakes (or making less than your opponent) is just another skill a player's arsenal. By allwing your opponent to fix his mistakes you are choosing not to employ this skill, in other words going easy on them.

Since when has not going easy on your opponent in a compeyition become poor sportsmanship?

I *absolutely* think that in fact it *is* poor sportsmanship to 'make someone suffer the consequences of their mistakes' when those mistakes pertain to a GAME, but then that's just me seeing X Wing as something enjoyable rather than a way of life.

If you screw up, don't cry about it if the opponent makes you suffer the consequence. It was your own fault.

Just because offering to have the obvious mistake corrected might be good sportsmanship doesn't mean the opposite is bad sportsmanship.

And even then, it must be such obvious mistakes as going left, straight off the board. I can't really think of other obvious mistakes actually.

Anyways, talking to the T/O afterwards it turned out the guy was not only local but a regular at the store. Apparently in a previous tourney, in the first round of the first game of the day, this guy's opponent revealed his Firespray dial to show a 2 turn in the wrong direction which would immediately take him off the board. This was clearly an error, and the opponent therefore asked the guy if he minded using what he'd obviously meant to do (the same turn in the other direction) and the guy said 'no, you have to fly him off the board.'

Turns out that word got around pretty quickly, and suddenly every time for the next few weeks that this guy turned up for a game, everyone was suddenly 'busy' or 'had to go'.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc. There could have been a *ton* of other reasons people started avoiding this guy -- several of them are mentioned as happening in the tournament -- other than not letting someone off the hook for picking the wrong maneuver. And it could have been the way he handled it rather than the fact it happened at all.

Yes, there could have been. Except that the T/O had spoken to several people who ha all told him that the incident had become well-known and had left a bad taste, which was why they were all avoiding him.

And sure, it was 100% as much about *how* he went about it as it was about what he had done. First turn of a first round game? Like it would have made ALL the difference to his day?

So for the record Player A made a critical mistake. Player A then asked to break the rules to change it.(it was not offered he specifically asked to break the rules) Player B declined. Then Player A spread word about Player B and the rest of the comunity black listed Player B. Who in this scenario is showing poor sportsmanship.

Does anyone else find it funny that the "poor sports" have never said one negative thing about the others but all the so called "good sports" players all hurl insults and negative comments.

You hit the nail square on the head. I don't know the whole story, but it sounded like the guy was unpleasant for a few reasons, however if he was blacklisted because he made the guy stick to his plotted maneuver then the only real poor sports are the ones who blacklisted the dude.

I don't know the whole story, but it sounded like the guy was unpleasant for a few reasons...

Same here. If they black listed for that one and only reason, then they were at fault. Either for being judgmental pricks, or more likely for not bother to explain to the guy what the unwritten rules of that community is.

Every group of players is going to have some unwriten rules after all, and while doing so is fine, you can't blame someone new for not knowing them. However expecting your unwritten rules to apply somewhere else is not acceptable.

Also there can be a world of difference in attitude while doing the same thing. Because you can make the guy fly off the table and not be a jerk about it. However you cannot get upset when it happens to you and not be a jerk about it.

What bugs me is that it seems like the accommodation is always flowing in one direction. If someone asks us to let the rules slide because they forgot or make a mistake, why, it's the right and gentlemanly thing to do! But if someone asks that the rules be adhered to, no matter how politely they do it, YOU'RE RUINING EVERYTHING. Why isn't the person who knows their ships and upgrades, knows the rules, and prefers the same from their opponents given the same consideration for their play experience as the person who sets the wrong dial, forgets to take their actions and asks for a do-over?

I *absolutely* think that in fact it *is* poor sportsmanship to 'make someone suffer the consequences of their mistakes' when those mistakes pertain to a GAME, but then that's just me seeing X Wing as something enjoyable rather than a way of life.

If you screw up, don't cry about it if the opponent makes you suffer the consequence. It was your own fault.

Just because offering to have the obvious mistake corrected might be good sportsmanship doesn't mean the opposite is bad sportsmanship.

And even then, it must be such obvious mistakes as going left, straight off the board. I can't really think of other obvious mistakes actually.

I find that I have to agree with this sentiment behind this post, even if the first sentence is a little on the harsh side.

It is certainly good sportsmanship to allow an opponent to correct an obvious mistake. The likes of starting a TIE Fighter backwards or flying your ship off the board in the first turn would be clear examples of this... but is it actually bad sportsmanship to disallow or not offer a remedy? I'm not necessarily convinced that it is.

Perhaps I was a little quick to be as harsh as I was in regard to those players. I do however, maintain that it is - and I'll carefully remind those reading that this is solely my opinion - the correct course of action to display good sportsmanship whenever possible.

I have to say i've really enjoyed this debate, its made me consider my views on the subject carefully and i'm slightly more inclined to agree with (or at least totally understand the views of) those saying 'no take backsies ever'.

But i think i've said everything i can say that i'd want to say on it so i'm bowing out here. I might check in every now and then to see how its getting on but if i dont respond to some challenge or question its because i actually think its about time this topic flew off the board.

Thanks all thought for being on the whole reasonable and polite. What i love about these forums is that even quite passionate discussions are largely civil.

Laters folks.