Why play differently when there is only such a small thing on the line?

Clearly there's a great deal you don't get, and never will. So I'm not going to bother.

Because based on your first question, you either are either incapable of getting it... Or are being intentionally obtuse, and either way it's not worth the effort.

I particularly enjoy the people who say they'd fly the ship off the board "because it's the only way the player will learn" ... and also say they'd do things differently in a casual game.

Because, I mean, the last thing you'd want to do in a casual game is do "the only thing that will help a player learn."

(That's putting aside the behavioral sciences fact that negative reinforcement is actually not the best way to learn anything. But yeah, put that aside, because pretty much every excuse for forcing the first-turn fly-off is a rationalization that boils down to, "I want to win, and I don't care how it happens." When you combine the sheer spectacular rationalizations with the more disheartening inability of some folks to think abstractly ... minds will not be changed.)

That's putting aside the behavioral sciences fact that negative reinforcement is actually not the best way to learn anything.

No, let's not put that aside, because the wholly uninformed claims about pedagogy are immensely entertaining.

Setting every single ship up backwards is the equivalent.

Plus that's not even the equivalent of what the OP brought up. Setting up all your ships backwards isn't really a in game mistake, it's closer as you said to a 12th man on the field.In that case the case of ships facing the wrong way, the game is over as soon as it starts, there was effectively no game played at all. That person had zero chance to win the game.This is not the same thing as flying one of your ships, even if it's 60% of your list off the table on turn 2.

No, they had a greater than zero chance of winning the game, except they blew it by placing their ships backwards.

Wow, I'm pretty new to this hobby in the grand scheme of things and I have to say the amount of garbage spouted in this thread is awful.

One thing, this game is governed by rules. How about you simply follow them, I would expect any opponent I play to follow them and I would want them to point out any mistakes I make which would break them.

The game is governed by rules following the rules is the simplest truth.

Me, if I'm at a tournament it's rules 100% bring your A game of gtfo

rule

ruːl/

noun

plural noun: rules; noun: Rules

1.

one of a set of explicit or understood regulations or principles governing conduct or procedure within a particular area of activity.

Wow, I'm pretty new to this hobby in the grand scheme of things and I have to say the amount of garbage spouted in this thread is awful.

One thing, this game is governed by rules. How about you simply follow them, I would expect any opponent I play to follow them and I would want them to point out any mistakes I make which would break them.

The game is governed by rules following the rules is the simplest truth.

Me, if I'm at a tournament it's rules 100% bring your A game of gtfo

rule

ruːl/

noun

plural noun: rules; noun: Rules

1.

one of a set of explicit or understood regulations or principles governing conduct or procedure within a particular area of activity.

Wow, I'm pretty new to this hobby in the grand scheme of things and I have to say the amount of garbage spouted in this thread is awful.

One thing, this game is governed by rules. How about you simply follow them, I would expect any opponent I play to follow them and I would want them to point out any mistakes I make which would break them.

The game is governed by rules following the rules is the simplest truth.

Me, if I'm at a tournament it's rules 100% bring your A game of gtfo

rule

ruːl/

noun

plural noun: rules; noun: Rules

1.

one of a set of explicit or understood regulations or principles governing conduct or procedure within a particular area of activity.

You are also new to internet arguements. Using the dictionary is either a sign of being a jerk or of having no arguement.

You are also new to internet arguements. Using the dictionary is either a sign of being a jerk or of having no arguement.

No, I just think it's quite simple, all this character assassination when the simplest thing is to follow the rules... If both sides follow the rules the game is simple and there's no problem on either side..

The rules are meant to prevent this kind of situation.

and this isn't my first argument on the internet I just don't want to get roped into any of the childish bickering I'm just making a statement supported by the dictionary definition.

As it stands I play this game 3 ways.

1. With my 6 year old daughter, I let her have re-do's, change movement directions, place tokens late because she's 6 and just learning the game.

2. When playing friendly matches with friends I'll let stuff like that go in early rounds so the game can last longer, I don't get huge opportunities to play so when i do I try to get it to last.

3. In a tournament it's by the book as that's the point of a tournament, play by the rules both sides then it's an even playing field. Bring your A game... Setting a dial wrong is your mistake and you have to live with it...

I'd let him correct such an error early game on smaller tourneys. Sure, the rules dictate that his ship will fly off the board, but being a rigid pain that is only able to dictate the rules, takes all the fun out of the game.

On world championships I might be a bit more strict, but then again it's still a hobby and there are no professional players: The World championships for a game like this doesn't mean much in the grander scheme of things. Prize support is laughable if you want to look at this from a professional perspective (an unique playmat... geez, that'll pay for the rent), compared to World Championships of physical sports or games like chess and stuff.

In the end the X-wing World Champion is just someone who happens to be good at a certain miniatures game, which will cost him more money than he will ever earn back (travel expenses and such, time that could have been invested in a job).

So as long there is no scene of players who are able to make a living out of playing X-wing and you are not playing at a tournament they play at (and need to win, to sustain their way of life), I'd say 'fly casual' and let your opponent correct such an error early game.

So basically you can both have a fun game, you might lose a well-fought exciting game and risk dropping out of a race for some 'grand' $40 prize, but stay human and show some sportmanship.

Or you could be the rigid prick that uses the rules in order to ensure victory in the form of a boring game/walkover, while still having to win several more games in order to win that 'grand' $ 40 prize.

I doubt all those people who would dictate the rules in a game like this, will gladly pay a fine everytime they violate some speedlimit or something.

@Ingaric: Man, I love your post!

I made this mistake once in a tournament. When I was about to take the fighter off the board (which was a linchpin to my list) my opponent replied that he'd rather have a good game than taking this advantage which had obviously happened due to a stress induced oversight of mine during the deployment.

This set up a very gentle atmosphere during the game, even when he lost.

Honoring his decision I'd give any player at any tournament the chance to correct this mistake. This stuff happens.

Ain't worth it to crush a potentially good game just before it even has started.

A 'game' is only such as long as both players are having fun.

As soon as one of you makes the play experience awful it just becomes a maths exercise with bits of plastic and cardboard.

A 'game' is only such as long as both players are having fun.

As soon as one of you makes the play experience awful it just becomes a maths exercise with bits of plastic and cardboard.

And I don't find it fun when I get brow beaten into letting my opponent bend a rule, because "sportsmanship". I don't understand why following the rules means you are a dictator and out to end peoples fun. I prefer to follow the rules in a tournament setting just because it stops any "I let you, so you should let me" events happen. Each player has an equal chance when they hit the mat, and in a competive game it usually is the person who makes the least mistakes the winner, so why be lenient on a mistake, either it early in the game or that critical moment before the last shot is rolled?

Do you not see what i'm saying though. A game if a fun activity you both enjoy yeah? If *anything* happens for either player that makes it really awful it then ceases to be a game, you know if you'd rather not be involved in it.

I think you're getting defensive there but my point was that a certain amount of give and take is required when playing a game between two people. Be it xwing or scrabble

Its why people concede games isnt it? Because spending 45 minutes removing a ship or two off the table each turn and never getting a shot back because you've taken lambdas and your opponent is cruising behind you with interceptors is not really much fun and a foregone conclusion... so some people just fast forward to the end as their is no 'fun' in playing in that scenario.

I wasn't being defensive, I'm stating the general theme of this thread and using your post to illustrate that side of it. It comes down to this, the easiest thing to do is follow the rules in a tournament setting. That's all.

Fair enough, your post came across to me when i read it as if you'd been attacked yourself by my comment. Hence my use of 'defensive'.

I don't think i've made any secret of my personal 'play ethics' during my time on this forum and i've also made it really clear that having been a TO and event organiser for GW at worldwide events im fully aware of the range of play styles/ethics in organised play environments.

I agree its easier to play by the rules but i also believe you should interpret the *spirit* of the rules, rather than the *letter* in obvious situations. No ruleset can be all encompassing, they are usually (and some rulesets explicitly state this) guidelines and a framework to allow you to have a spacebattle/cthulu adventure/lord of the rings game etc etc.

One of the nastiest problems you get in the hobby is when the letter of the rules is adhered to over the spirit and you get frankly ridiculous situations happening where something is 'done by the book' but its clearly not the intention of the designers. You know 'rules loopholes'.

I agree that the 'flying off table' rule clearly *was* intended by the designers to wipe your ship out... *but* i'd argue that this was designed and written in to ensure careful flying while pulling off an edgy manouvre on the side of the mat and also to prevent awkward 'bookeeping' that would ensue if you had to return to a point on the mat after 'turning round off table'.

I don't think they ever thought that someone would put there ship on backwards and fly off in turn one for example.

A 'game' is only such as long as both players are having fun.

As soon as one of you makes the play experience awful it just becomes a maths exercise with bits of plastic and cardboard.

And I don't find it fun when I get brow beaten into letting my opponent bend a rule, because "sportsmanship". I don't understand why following the rules means you are a dictator and out to end peoples fun. I prefer to follow the rules in a tournament setting just because it stops any "I let you, so you should let me" events happen. Each player has an equal chance when they hit the mat, and in a competive game it usually is the person who makes the least mistakes the winner, so why be lenient on a mistake, either it early in the game or that critical moment before the last shot is rolled?

TS's case is not an opponent trying to bend a rule, but an obvious mistake of turning right (off the board) instead of left into the battle, or the examples of opponents placing ships backwards, that can only fly offboard.

In the heat of battle/furball mistakes are bound to happen throughout the game (especially towards the end when the games are timed) and then it's different, but I vouch for some leniency regarding obvious mistakes in the first or 2nd rounds, before any shot has been fired. Otherwise 1 set-up/initial dial mistake will cost that player the game and generally both players will want a decent match, instead of an auto-win in the first minutes, because a player made a terrible dial/positioning mistake

I wasn't being defensive, I'm stating the general theme of this thread and using your post to illustrate that side of it. It comes down to this, the easiest thing to do is follow the rules in a tournament setting. That's all.

The overall tournament rules (and the core rules to a certain extend) are written with the intent to regulate any dubious situation swiftly without having to rely too much on a judges opinion, because he can't be everywhere, all the time. These rules can't cover every situation occurring.

They are not meant as an excuse to be able to sucker punch an opponent by strictly adhering to the letter.

Tournaments are above all also social interactions and while having to deal with your own mistakes is a part of a learning process taught there, giving leniency and acting human when it is appropriate is also another one.

Sadly the latter one gets wiped under the table quite often conveniently under this elusive mantra "To bring your best to the table." 'cause this little sentence not only refers to ones rules knowledge but also to ones social abilities.

Something to be kept in mind, I'd say.

Again, like I said, its a competive setting. The winner is chosen by the one that does mistakes the least. You aren't going to make everyone happy, so I don't see the point of continuing this. Some people will say the line is the first two turns, some till damage has been rolled, some the whole game, and some none at all. If you want to be lenient go for it, but I've seen it bite people (myself included) in the butt. My solution, follow the rules, regardless of how small the incident. You don't have to be an jerk how you do it or be disrespectful when it comes up, but the rules help end potential arguments.

TS's case is not an opponent trying to bend a rule

It's actually full on breaking a rule. There is no rule that lets you allow an opponent to change his/her dial after the fact.

This is not a missed opportunity, the rules are quite clear, you have to perform the maneuver set on the dial. If you let someone do that you are letting them break the rules, period.

Some people may be fine with that in some cases, but make no mistake about what you're actually doing.

I don't see the appeal of playing against an opponent that accidentally flies a ship off of the field on the first turn. Not only would it be unsporting, it simply wouldn't be fun. I play the game to have fun and don't see why that would change just because I happen to be playing in tournament.

Wouldn't you rather play against an opponent's full list rather than be stuck with easy-mode in a suddenly tense unfun environment?

A 'game' is only such as long as both players are having fun.

I agree, and anyone who goes to a competitive event looking for a casual game, where they can fix mistakes is at the wrong place.

I go to store champions, regionals, and other tournaments for the sake of playing competitive games with competitive people playing at their best. I don't want to win because someone else let me, and would rather concede the win like that.

If that isn't something someone can understand, or doesn't find enjoyable then they should stick to friendly games and casual tournaments.

Not only would it be unsporting, it simply wouldn't be fun.

Those are both subjective opinions, and not shared by everyone.

To me it's unsporting to expect break the rules. It is not fun to win because the other guy let me. To me the fun is coming back from such a painful mistake and win anyway. Or at least doing the best I can with what I have left.

I'm done with this topic... It's the same thing said by the same people and the same pseudo-moral superiority disguised as sportsmanship...

Letting someone change their dial is not allowed under the rules, period. It's not an option either payer has. No one has the authority to allow that to be change, if you do you are breaking the rules pure and simple.

If you want to do that, that's your choice, but anyone who thinks less of someone who won't do it, or expects to be allowed to do it is the true poor sport.

So many things to say, but whats the point. Most of you will just read but fail to see the point.

The "spirit" of the rule. You can't judge that. You didn't write them. You're interpretation is different than mine. That's why Rules/Contracts try to be written in such a way as there are no loopholes or ambiguity, so that there are no arguments as to what they mean.

I think it's all agreed that casual games are that. Casual.

Tournaments are where people are having issues. To me a tournament is a competitive environment where the participants are out to pit their skills against those of other people. Stress is a factor in tournament that one needs to overcome. And if you are stressed or nervous and do something wrong, guess what, you screwed up. Each player has time to set their dials, double check them before saying they are good. If you fail to double check, that's on you. Not me. And if you're dyslexic, then you need to triple check that and have a system in place to make sure you're doing things right.

A game is only a game if both people are having fun. Well when you screw up, and I'm expected to break the rules to allow you to change something, and then I go on to lose. I'm no longer having fun. So if it's between you and me to have fun. I'm picking me all day long.

You seem to like hypothetical questions, so here's one for you guys. Round 2 player B sets left instead of right and should fly his ship off the board. You let him change it because, comon, that was clearly a mistake. Later in the game that same ship is about to finish your last ship off and is flying down the edge of the board towards him, and he mis-sets his dial again this time turning right instead of left. Clearly he didn't want to do that. What do you do?

So many things to say, but whats the point. Most of you will just read but fail to see the point.

The "spirit" of the rule. You can't judge that. You didn't write them. You're interpretation is different than mine. That's why Rules/Contracts try to be written in such a way as there are no loopholes or ambiguity, so that there are no arguments as to what they mean.

I think it's all agreed that casual games are that. Casual.

Tournaments are where people are having issues. To me a tournament is a competitive environment where the participants are out to pit their skills against those of other people. Stress is a factor in tournament that one needs to overcome. And if you are stressed or nervous and do something wrong, guess what, you screwed up. Each player has time to set their dials, double check them before saying they are good. If you fail to double check, that's on you. Not me. And if you're dyslexic, then you need to triple check that and have a system in place to make sure you're doing things right.

A game is only a game if both people are having fun. Well when you screw up, and I'm expected to break the rules to allow you to change something, and then I go on to lose. I'm no longer having fun. So if it's between you and me to have fun. I'm picking me all day long.

You seem to like hypothetical questions, so here's one for you guys. Round 2 player B sets left instead of right and should fly his ship off the board. You let him change it because, comon, that was clearly a mistake. Later in the game that same ship is about to finish your last ship off and is flying down the edge of the board towards him, and he mis-sets his dial again this time turning right instead of left. Clearly he didn't want to do that. What do you do?

If you fear you'll lose after being lenient, then you might not be good enough. You would have lost anyway if he didn't make that mistake.

If the only reason you would have won is by standing on the rules even when the mistake is obvious, your victory would not have been because of your competitive skillz.

Then again, your opponent should not make the same mistake twice and expect you to be lenient all the time.

The problem is that some tournament players, want to play competitive tournament and win as many games as possible (asserting their belief they are skilled players). For other some people, playing tournaments is one of the few ways to get a decent amount of games in, although they still hope to win.

Some people expect their opponents to be professional players and are not allowed to make a mistake, while others still see this as a game meant for both players to have fun.

The problem with the first expectation, is that no X-wing player is professional. This is no Olympics where victory/defeat will mean eternal fame/disgrace or being able to afford a new Ferrari or not and why the athletes are drilled 40+ hours a week into NOT-MAKING-MISTAKES

X-wing tournaments are visited by amateur players that want some competiveness and in that scenario you should expect mistakes.

If FFG would seriously up the prize-structure of their regionals and world-championships and attract players that are trying to make a living out of it, only then you can expect a level of professional play where mistakes SHOULD cost you the game.