Why do you doubt yourself?

Fair play shows character.

I supervised a lot of personnel, 28.5 years in the USN and 7.5 years jail supervisor, I rather to see character than win at any cost. I had a lot of win at any cost personnel behind the bars and hardly any that had character.

Moral character or character is an evaluation of a particular individual's stable moral qualities. The concept of character can imply a variety of attributes including the existence or lack of virtues such as empathy, courage, fortitude, honesty, and loyalty, or of good behaviors or habits.

Sir, you did show character. Well done.

Nice to see another screw on the board!

The line isn't wobbly at all. Read my post above.

Edit:let's also add that he let you fly your ship back on the board after a bad manuever.

Last night was an off night for me. I ran my Aggressor off the board on turn 2 when my Segnor's Loop took me too far. (It's been a while since I've flown Aggressors, it seems.) My opponent insisted that I choose a different maneuver. That was courteous of him, but I would never ask him to let me redo that. I made a mistake and was ready to live with the consequences. The thing is, this was a training match, so my opponent really wanted to play the game out to see how his list would do. I can respect that.

Right after I switched to a Koigran, I banked to the right by accident and ran that IG-88 right off the board again. It was an honest mistake, but again, I was ready to let him go (that droid had a death wish, I guess). Again, my opponent insisted I bank the other direction, so I did because we wanted to see how dual Aggressors would fare against TLTs with Poe.

In a tournament, though, I'm not gonna ask and my opponent won't offer to let me take either of those moves back. It's all on me. And if he flies off the board, I'm gonna say, "Oh man! That hurts so bad! I've done that too. I know how you must feel." But I probably won't let him take it back. In my opinion, that's still flying casual. Not flying casual would be saying, "Woohoo! Yes! I can't believe you just did that! Thanks for making my job easier!"

Also, asking for take backs is not flying casual because you're trying to manipulate the rules and play off of emotions to get an unfair advantage. Your opponent has no guarantee you'll give him the same treatment, nor is there a guarantee you'll need such fudging of the rules in your favor. If your opponent offers you a take back, take it with gratitude, grace, and humility, but don't expect that to be the rule -- because it's not in the rules!

At Pittsburgh regionals this year in the 5th game I had something happen to me than has never happened before. So I set all my ships dials and I had 3 z95s in line formation and they were going to just slow roll against my opponents dash. So I set them to all go 1 forward and I say all my z's are going 1 forward and then my opponent said umm I think he's going 4 forward. I look down at the furthest z's dial and by God there was a god **** 4 straight forward. I didn't ask for a redo and my opponent just said that sucks which I agreed with and kept playing.

Next turn, luckily that z didn't get picked off by dash since he was the furthest from him. So now I set my dials and I'm gonna try and 2 turn him to get him pointed the right way and eventually with the other z's. I say OK this z is doing a bank this one is doing a 2 bank. I flip there dials and perform the maneuvers. I look at my insubordinate z and say he is doing a 2 turn to get back in the fight and I flip his dial over and again it's a mother ****ing 4 forward. We both are just like what and I'm like I seriously have no idea what's happening so now the dumbass 4 forwarded head first into debris and right in front of corran. Again I didn't ask for take backs, wasn't offered any, just laughed it off. Granted on the inside I was pissed.

I'm a competitive player I have the most fun at big tournaments. I took that dial apart and put it back together and luckily that never happened after. It gave him a free z kill and was just an ungodly fluke of nature. He isn't any less of good sport for not letting me fix the mistake. He wasn't a jerk about it he knew it sucked just as much as I do. He was a great competitor and did everything I would have done in that situation. We're for the most part adults and we gotta own up to mistakes and not expect take backs even in a game of moving toy ships on giant mouse pads. Just take your medicine and move on with life.

Fly competitive.

This is a really interesting thread (or was, before it degenerated into various attempts at character assassination). I invoke my experiences with competitive Magic a lot, which I hope isn't annoying because it seems to me to a very instructive backdrop for analysis of the X-Wing community.

But let me back up a second and say that I REALLY respect what the OP did - Good on you, man, and I wish there were more like you. I'm not even going to make an argument about character, but just leave it at saying that you're the kind of player that enhances my experience of this game rather than detracts from it. So many players of X-Wing and Magic both are the kinds of guys that I just have to endure if I want to play. I have lots of smart, friendly, and honorable people in my life that just aren't interested in gaming. It's a shame, but it is what it is.

To bring it back to Magic, though, I'll suggest that if this were a competitive Magic forum then this debate would be a non-starter. In that community, takesies-backsies are for the kitchen table or for playtesting when the goal is to hone one's performance against an opponent that plays optimally. In any tournament of a larger scale than Friday Night Magic (and often even at those), my experience was that each player was expected to play optimally....which I think is in the tournament rules for X-Wing as well, right?

I just think that it's interesting that in something like Magic, that's been played competitively for like 20 years now, there are no allowances for mental lapses of the kind described in the OP. In fact, as argued by some here already, that's really big tournaments are all about: who has the mental fortitude to make the best play over and over, in a test of endurance. I've even read articles from top Magic players talking about how they realized that being a doughy shut-in was hurting their performance, and that they needed to get in better physical shape to be better equipped mentally for the big tournaments. But this current thread seems to demonstrate that there really is a very strong "fly casual" strain throughout the X-Wing community, and that many of us experience some angst in trying to determine where the player across the board from us will come down on the casual-to-competitive spectrum.

This has been instructive for me, and caused me to think about what I would do in the situation described in the OP. I think I will practice a calm and considerate delivery for my belief that tournaments are a test of mental endurance as well as of abstract piloting skill, and therefore we must adhere to the RAW. I hope my opponent would accept this with good grace, do their best to make no further mistakes in our match, and take steps to not allow similar lapses to affect their performance in the future. This is how we learn and grow in so many aspects of life, isn't it?

It's interesting that the ones calling people "low character" are the same ones who insist it's just a game and we should fly casual.

Umm.... It is just a game. Whether it's your Friday night regular, or Nationals and you're playing for sheep stations, at the end of the day, it's just a game. And one involving toy spaceships at that. So let's not get too worked up, shall we?

The thing is, this is a game where both players *look* at their dials when setting them, and there is plenty of time to double check them to make sure that you are going the way you intend to go.

So if you make a mistake like putting the wrong maneuver, that's really on you. No one else is to blame, and if your opponent says "you just flew off the board" well then you just flew off the board. It may suck to lose (even win) that way sometimes, but people really need to start being more careful with their dials.

Hi! I'm the other guy.

The conversation was as follows:

OP "your dial says left not right"

ME "Oh Sh!t - you're kidding me"

OP "Nevermind, just carry on. It's obvious what you intended to do"

ME "I'm so sorry but thank you - can't believe I did that"

If it was me I wouldn't hesitate to offer my opponent the same kind gesture at that inconsequential stage, regardless of whether I might ultimately win or lose.

It does make you low character. It's not at all a slippery slope and the more "important" the game, the more necessary it is to not be a child and steal a major advantage from a mere mistake.

You guys have no leg to stand on here, you're talking about a slippery slopes and learning lessons when it's not at all relevant.

If someone tries to change their dial after the fact, that is cheating on the same level of being greedy and infantile that you are currently arguing from by insisting in stealing advantages from honest mistakes. This is not a slippery slope,nor is it difficult to distinguish between the two. We all know it when we see it, the example given in this thread is a far site removed from someone changing their dial after the fact, and to deny that is just further sleaziness.

I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt. Try not being a slime ball. You'll feel better about yourself.

So you Admit it is cheating. If my dial says I'm doing a hard left, I have to do a hard left. If that puts me off the board, and I try to change it to the other side, it's cheating. Or do you let your opponents ignore their dial and just go whichever way they want?

At a tournament of that level I would've made him fly off the table. That being said I'm playing in an escalation league right now and my first opponent was making a lot of mistakes and I let them slide. It's the difference in how competitive an environment your in and Nationals doesn't get much more competitive. Except Worlds of course

I've done this myself, but I always held myself to the move shown on the dial, even when I knew I mixed up the dials I assigned to two of the same type of ships. As a result, I'm much, much better about double checking all my moves now, and a better player I'd like to think too.

Still, if I saw someone do something obviously wrong and not what was intended, especially near the start, I would likely let it slide, at least the first time. If it happened again in the same match or quite a few turns in, I would probably be less lenient.

Hi! I'm the other guy.

The conversation was as follows:

OP "your dial says left not right"

ME "Oh **** - you're kidding me"

OP "Nevermind, just carry on. It's obvious what you intended to do"

ME "I'm so sorry but thank you - can't believe I did that"

If it was me I wouldn't hesitate to offer my opponent the same kind gesture at that inconsequential stage, regardless of whether I might ultimately win or lose.

bingo.

This guy gets it.

All you snake-in-the-grass bellyachers above can check your selfishness and learn from this guy.

It does make you low character. It's not at all a slippery slope and the more "important" the game, the more necessary it is to not be a child and steal a major advantage from a mere mistake.

You guys have no leg to stand on here, you're talking about a slippery slopes and learning lessons when it's not at all relevant.

If someone tries to change their dial after the fact, that is cheating on the same level of being greedy and infantile that you are currently arguing from by insisting in stealing advantages from honest mistakes. This is not a slippery slope,nor is it difficult to distinguish between the two. We all know it when we see it, the example given in this thread is a far site removed from someone changing their dial after the fact, and to deny that is just further sleaziness.

I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt. Try not being a slime ball. You'll feel better about yourself.

So you Admit it is cheating. If my dial says I'm doing a hard left, I have to do a hard left. If that puts me off the board, and I try to change it to the other side, it's cheating. Or do you let your opponents ignore their dial and just go whichever way they want?

try to keep up, please. The very post you're responding to answers this facile question.

This is getting embarassing. So as well as petty and selfish, you're also quite dense?

And once again, where does name calling fall on the line of "fly casual".

Yeah, it's not the people who wouldn't do this who are throwing around the names, it's the "Fly Casual" crowd.

Hi! I'm the other guy.

The conversation was as follows:

OP "your dial says left not right"

ME "Oh **** - you're kidding me"

OP "Nevermind, just carry on. It's obvious what you intended to do"

ME "I'm so sorry but thank you - can't believe I did that"

If it was me I wouldn't hesitate to offer my opponent the same kind gesture at that inconsequential stage, regardless of whether I might ultimately win or lose.

bingo.

This guy gets it.

All you snake-in-the-grass bellyachers above can check your selfishness and learn from this guy.

Why the name calling?

Look, when someone scores on their own net "accidentally" in hockey, does the other team say "oh, that obviously wasn't intended, so we won't count it."? Nope.

This really isn't much different. Part of this game involves selecting a maneuver on a dial. You get to look at it yourself and you have ample time to double check it if you like. If not, that's not really your opponent's problem, and it certainly doesn't make them a snake-in-the-grass if they decide to make you stick to the rules.

And again, a casual game, sure, let it ride. But if we've paid to be in an event like a regional or Nationals, the expectation is you know what you're doing, and know the consequences if you don't.

Why is a Nationals game different in your eyes?

Are the prizes so significant that you'll change your playing behaviour to improve your chances? Will you win lots of money? Is your income dependent on winning the game? Is the fame and renown attached so significant that it's worth changing the way you play?

I honestly don't understand.

And again, a casual game, sure, let it ride. But if we've paid to be in an event like a regional or Nationals, the expectation is you know what you're doing, and know the consequences if you don't.

Why is a Nationals game different in your eyes?

Are the prizes so significant that you'll change your playing behaviour to improve your chances? Will you win lots of money? Is your income dependent on winning the game? Is the fame and renown attached so significant that it's worth changing the way you play?

I honestly don't understand.

I don't see "playing by the rules as written" as "changing your playing behavior to improve your chances." If anything, the altered playing behavior is taking it easy in a casual game.

I mean, if a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP EVENT doesn't have a heightened level of competition to it, why even have winners and losers? Let's just move our ships around and roll dice and just pat each other on the backs when it's over and give everyone participation prizes.

It IS possible to be competitive and not be an *******, you know.

And again, a casual game, sure, let it ride. But if we've paid to be in an event like a regional or Nationals, the expectation is you know what you're doing, and know the consequences if you don't.

Why is a Nationals game different in your eyes?

Are the prizes so significant that you'll change your playing behaviour to improve your chances? Will you win lots of money? Is your income dependent on winning the game? Is the fame and renown attached so significant that it's worth changing the way you play?

I honestly don't understand.

Because if you've made it to Nationals or Worlds or whatnot, then that means:

a) You are probably a very good player.

b) You should know better than making a mistake like choosing the wrong maneuver.

Has nothing to do with fame, money, or anything like that. The rules are the rules. Mistakes happen all the time in all kinds of competitive environments, but when they happen the onus is on the player who made the mistake - not the other way around. Golfers certainly don't mean to land their balls in the drink, but sometimes it happens and when it does there are no do-overs, right? ice skaters don't mean to fall during their routine at the Olympics, but when it happens it hurts their scores, right? Why is this any different?

I don't see "playing by the rules as written" as "changing your playing behavior to improve your chances." If anything, the altered playing behavior is taking it easy in a casual game.

However you want to spin it is up to you. The point is that your behaviour changes from one type of game to the other, and my question is why?

I mean, if a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP EVENT doesn't have a heightened level of competition to it, why even have winners and losers? Let's just move our ships around and roll dice and just pat each other on the backs when it's over and give everyone participation prizes.

It IS possible to be competitive and not be an *******, you know.

What does 'heightened level of competition' mean to you? There's no real prizes on the line, no one is making or losing money on the outcome. What, exactly, are you competing for?

Yes, it is possible to be competitive and not be an *******, and I'm sorry to address my comments to you specifically, but there was a particular train of thought running through this thread that I wanted to address, and I saw it expressed in your post.

"I'd let it slide in a casual game, but regionals and nationals are srs bsns!"

Because no, regionals and nationals are NOT serious business. No more so than any casual game is. There's nothing riding on the outcome of the game except bragging rights and a handful of cheap plastic and cardboard. If there were serious prizes and money, if people made their living off the back of their tournament performance, then I could understand taking a harder line in competitive events than casual games. A game of tennis at the park for a laugh is not going to follow the rules as strictly as a game at Wimbledon because at Wimbledon there is ~$4,000,000 at stake.

But there's nothing even close to that in X Wing. We're just rolling some dice and having a laugh, and the winner might get some neat trinkets to take home, but some people literally play like their livelihood depends on winning the game. No one is going to demonise a player who follows the rules. That's not what I'm saying here. I'm saying that the breaks you'd cut someone at a casual game are the same breaks you should cut them in a tournament, because the things at stake are not worth changing your behaviour or adopting a different attitude for.

The level of play you accept in casual play should be the level of play you accept ALL THE TIME.

Golfers certainly don't mean to land their balls in the drink, but sometimes it happens and when it does there are no do-overs, right? ice skaters don't mean to fall during their routine at the Olympics, but when it happens it hurts their scores, right? Why is this any different?

It's not any different.

But it's also not exactly the same.

When a golfer plays a round with his mates and has a few beers and a nice day out, he's not so strict with the rules. When he plays the US Open, it's a very different thing.

But the US Open IS a very different thing from a casual game with friends. It's ~$2,000,000 different, in fact. I can understand why a players attitude and behaviour would change when something like that is on the line.

A game of X Wing at worlds is no different to a game at your local store on a random week-night. Apart from a handful of cheap plastic and cardboard, there is NOTHING at stake. I can't understand why a players attitude and behaviour would change when all that's on the line are the prizes in a tournament kit.

You honestly don't think winning at Nationals or Worlds carries more prestige and accomplishment than winning a game in your friend's basement?

I mean, FFG themselves make the distinction:

Premier events are the highest level of competition for Fantasy Flight Games tournaments, and all players, judges, and tournament organizers involved are held to the highest levels of conduct. Players are assumed to be familiar with the game’s rules, as well as the latest FAQ and tournament rules, and should expect all rules to be strictly enforced. Regional Championships, National Championships, and World Championships are premier events.

You honestly don't think winning at Nationals or Worlds carries more prestige and accomplishment than winning a game in your friend's basement?

It doesn't carry enough prestige and accomplishment to make me change the way I play.

No where near enough for that.