http://maxmahem.net/wp/star-wars-edge-of-the-empire-die-probabilities/

Dice probabilities.

Advantage gained in rolling for Initiative can be used to give the PCs or the NPCs various perks. Triumph could be used to declare high ground, advantage can give you a full free maneuver before the fight even starts, boosts can be passed along as the PC's or NPCs begin to organize and quickly fall in together, increasing their effectivity, or setbacks on the enemy for being in a poor position to get a shot off.

Your system works fine at its base, but it poses the same issues as rolling at the start of session does; these sorts of things can't happen anymore.

Unless you implement a point system that allows characters to spend their Initiative points to get some other perk.

My recommendation would be to have your (G+2Y=I) system, and allow characters to spend points equal to (1Y) for perks.

1 point for a self boost, 2 points to pass boost or place setback, 2 points for maneuver, 3 for Triumph equivalent.

This would DRASTICALLY encourage players to spend those points in Cool or Vigilance, rather than the applicable Characteristic alone, as their rank would be the same and provide bonus to everything under the blanket.

More expensive, sure, but when every point matters, you make every point count.

I would still keep the system for when to use Cool or Vigilance. I tend to only enforce specifically when the PC's are being ambushed, and make them justify why they are using their chosen skill otherwise.

Advantage gained in rolling for Initiative can be used to give the PCs or the NPCs various perks. Triumph could be used to declare high ground, advantage can give you a full free maneuver before the fight even starts, boosts can be passed along as the PC's or NPCs begin to organize and quickly fall in together, increasing their effectivity, or setbacks on the enemy for being in a poor position to get a shot off.

Your system works fine at its base, but it poses the same issues as rolling at the start of session does; these sorts of things can't happen anymore.

Unless you implement a point system that allows characters to spend their Initiative points to get some other perk.

My recommendation would be to have your (G+2Y=I) system, and allow characters to spend points equal to (1Y) for perks.

1 point for a self boost, 2 points to pass boost or place setback, 2 points for maneuver, 3 for Triumph equivalent.

This would DRASTICALLY encourage players to spend those points in Cool or Vigilance, rather than the applicable Characteristic alone, as their rank would be the same and provide bonus to everything under the blanket.

More expensive, sure, but when every point matters, you make every point count.

I would still keep the system for when to use Cool or Vigilance. I tend to only enforce specifically when the PC's are being ambushed, and make them justify why they are using their chosen skill otherwise.

The Talents and Force power also require decisions about Strain and whether or nor to convert dark side pips, so that whole element is kind of difficult to implement on the back end to the point where it's probably easier to just roll initiative.

The Talents and Force power also require decisions about Strain and whether or nor to convert dark side pips, so that whole element is kind of difficult to implement on the back end to the point where it's probably easier to just roll initiative.

Fair point.

I'd have to look at the talents applicable to this a bit more, but I imagine that, in most cases, the Force Point wouldn't be hard to figure out for the House Rule.

I don't disagree with you; right now, rolling before each combat is necessary. It just seems that it COULD be easier is all. It really does slow things down at the table just as you are trying to ramp things up.

Rapid Reactions requires a decision about Strain. Uncanny Reaction, a Force Talent essentially, is really gutted as there just isn't much regular use for Vigilance aside from initiative. Foresee and the Force raises the question do you allow a PC to decide every combat whether to convert a pre-session roll or not? Same would essentially apply to Rapid Reactions so if the point is speeding things up I don't really see it happening as PCs are still going to be weighing options regardless when combat begins. If you let them apply everything on a pre-session roll for every combat, that's way OP or very punitive imo, depending on the roll.

I don't think rolling initiative should be viewed in terms of breaking tension anymore than decisions about burning Strain to use Frenzied Attack or Dodge. Honestly it's part of the tension. The Triumph results on a Cool or Vigilance roll on initiative can be very helpful, to say nothing of the other uses they and Advantages have in the beginning of a combat encounter that you point out. Having that upgrade for attack or defense can make a difference in a big way, but all of that goes away if it's just reduced to a fixed stat.

The current system is a one-time calculation at the beginning of each combat. Each player rolls, the GM rolls, and then the GM does a sort operation.

From there, the order of the slots from one side to the other are fixed, but there is fluidity as to who decides to take which slot for their side.

I’m sorry, this doesn’t seem burdensome in any way. Can someone help me understand what the problem is here?

The current system is a one-time calculation at the beginning of each combat. Each player rolls, the GM rolls, and then the GM does a sort operation.

From there, the order of the slots from one side to the other are fixed, but there is fluidity as to who decides to take which slot for their side.

I’m sorry, this doesn’t seem burdensome in any way. Can someone help me understand what the problem is here?

My scenes tend to play out like this: "Four gleaming white storm troopers, blasters readied to hip fire, run around the corner and look right at you!" Now pass the dice around, check the stat, roll the dice, remember what you rolled, call it out in order and write the order down then slot the Troopers into the order. This takes on average about three minutes for my group. In the end, we have one character that is really fast to react and another is slow yet the slow character usually takes first initiative action since they are the one that usually finds the trouble (a feature of the system I really like) so the whole ritual of rolling seems kind of rolling for its own sake rather than for any real effect. Before the actual fighting starts, the players already have a good idea who wants to do what and in what order irrespective of which player rolled what result, all we are doing is rolling to see when the Storm Troopers ruin that run. Five rolls (I have five PCs) just to see how many beat one or two bad guy rolls seems a bit of a waste of effort.

For the flow of my game, that brings things to a screeching halt when I would much rather continue the flow of "What do you do?" and just get into it. That is where I am coming from.

The current system is a one-time calculation at the beginning of each combat. Each player rolls, the GM rolls, and then the GM does a sort operation.

From there, the order of the slots from one side to the other are fixed, but there is fluidity as to who decides to take which slot for their side.

I’m sorry, this doesn’t seem burdensome in any way. Can someone help me understand what the problem is here?

My scenes tend to play out like this: "Four gleaming white storm troopers, blasters readied to hip fire, run around the corner and look right at you!" Now pass the dice around, check the stat, roll the dice, remember what you rolled, call it out in order and write the order down then slot the Troopers into the order. This takes on average about three minutes for my group. In the end, we have one character that is really fast to react and another is slow yet the slow character usually takes first initiative action since they are the one that usually finds the trouble (a feature of the system I really like) so the whole ritual of rolling seems kind of rolling for its own sake rather than for any real effect. Before the actual fighting starts, the players already have a good idea who wants to do what and in what order irrespective of which player rolled what result, all we are doing is rolling to see when the Storm Troopers ruin that run. Five rolls (I have five PCs) just to see how many beat one or two bad guy rolls seems a bit of a waste of effort.

For the flow of my game, that brings things to a screeching halt when I would much rather continue the flow of "What do you do?" and just get into it. That is where I am coming from.

And that can be fixed pretty easy, without making any new rules or systems, by just having the group roll for initiative when they roll the Force die for the Destiny pool, then just using those values for the rest of the evening. NPCs get slotted in each time they are needed by just rolling and sorting them into place. That lets the initiative Talents still function as normal and keeps the "randomness" of the slot values present.

The current system is a one-time calculation at the beginning of each combat. Each player rolls, the GM rolls, and then the GM does a sort operation.

From there, the order of the slots from one side to the other are fixed, but there is fluidity as to who decides to take which slot for their side.

I’m sorry, this doesn’t seem burdensome in any way. Can someone help me understand what the problem is here?

My scenes tend to play out like this: "Four gleaming white storm troopers, blasters readied to hip fire, run around the corner and look right at you!" Now pass the dice around, check the stat, roll the dice, remember what you rolled, call it out in order and write the order down then slot the Troopers into the order. This takes on average about three minutes for my group. In the end, we have one character that is really fast to react and another is slow yet the slow character usually takes first initiative action since they are the one that usually finds the trouble (a feature of the system I really like) so the whole ritual of rolling seems kind of rolling for its own sake rather than for any real effect. Before the actual fighting starts, the players already have a good idea who wants to do what and in what order irrespective of which player rolled what result, all we are doing is rolling to see when the Storm Troopers ruin that run. Five rolls (I have five PCs) just to see how many beat one or two bad guy rolls seems a bit of a waste of effort.

For the flow of my game, that brings things to a screeching halt when I would much rather continue the flow of "What do you do?" and just get into it. That is where I am coming from.

You're discounting the use of the Triumphs for Cool and Vigilance in particular, to say nothing of all the potential uses for Advantages. The players with Triumphs on a Vigilance roll aren't going to have to pay the Strain cost of their second maneuver in their first round of combat making the use of a rank or two or three of something like Side Step more attractive. If they've come from an encounter and are down Strain being able to recover 3 on the Cool Triumph is also very good. Both are results far more useful; than just rolling dice for the sake of it. That's before you even get into the other uses of Triumphs and Advantages that can lead to buffs both offensive or defensive for one another, all of which doesn't occur if no one rolls.

Sounds like you need more groups of enemies, for a party of 5 you could have 3 minion groups and 2 or 3 rivals. Don't make the minions over powered, and low combat skills for rivals. Then ther is more strategy to the PC's decision on who goes when. If 3 different pc's are under threat at the start of the round and only 1 PC slot before some NPC.

You're discounting the use of the Triumphs for Cool and Vigilance in particular, to say nothing of all the potential uses for Advantages. The players with Triumphs on a Vigilance roll aren't going to have to pay the Strain cost of their second maneuver in their first round of combat making the use of a rank or two or three of something like Side Step more attractive. If they've come from an encounter and are down Strain being able to recover 3 on the Cool Triumph is also very good. Both are results far more useful; than just rolling dice for the sake of it. That's before you even get into the other uses of Triumphs and Advantages that can lead to buffs both offensive or defensive for one another, all of which doesn't occur if no one rolls.

I think this difference in interpretation is where we are conflicting.

Sounds like you need more groups of enemies, for a party of 5 you could have 3 minion groups and 2 or 3 rivals. Don't make the minions over powered, and low combat skills for rivals. Then ther is more strategy to the PC's decision on who goes when. If 3 different pc's are under threat at the start of the round and only 1 PC slot before some NPC.

Having an 11 soak PC (6 brawn, laminate armour, 3 ranks of Enduring) and a 2 soak PC in the same group with the 11 being unable to understand why that is an issue of game balance means that providing challenging personal scale combats is a real headache for me.

You're discounting the use of the Triumphs for Cool and Vigilance in particular, to say nothing of all the potential uses for Advantages. The players with Triumphs on a Vigilance roll aren't going to have to pay the Strain cost of their second maneuver in their first round of combat making the use of a rank or two or three of something like Side Step more attractive. If they've come from an encounter and are down Strain being able to recover 3 on the Cool Triumph is also very good. Both are results far more useful; than just rolling dice for the sake of it. That's before you even get into the other uses of Triumphs and Advantages that can lead to buffs both offensive or defensive for one another, all of which doesn't occur if no one rolls.

I have always had a different take on initiative, that Advantage is only used as a tie breaker and Triumph has no bonus effect without having a talent to take advantage of it. Reading page 198 again, I cannot see where PCs can recover strain from rolling Advantage on an initiative roll or influence the scene with a Triumph. The roll is an Initiative check, not a skill check (my reading of last paragraph, left column pg 198).

I think this difference in interpretation is where we are conflicting.

The skills Cool and Vigilance clearly lay out uses of Triumphs and Advantages on an initiative roll that very much influence the scene so I don't know how you arrived at your conclusion, it's not vague at all in the skill descriptions.

Calling something a skill check or an initiative check is semantics, you're building a dice pool with an assigned Difficulty that's designating Skills to be used in the dice pool. The name of it isn't relevant, results from it are applied regardless of it's name. Why list options for spending Triumphs, Successes, and Advantages in the various skills if you aren't going to use them when you make a roll using those skills, particularly when the skill descriptions themselves are laying out options for the uses of those Triumphs, Successes, and Advantages specifically on the kind of check in question?

Having an 11 soak PC (6 brawn, laminate armour, 3 ranks of Enduring) and a 2 soak PC in the same group with the 11 being unable to understand why that is an issue of game balance means that providing challenging personal scale combats is a real headache for me.

Sounds like maybe Breach is something that needs to come up more often in your game. Not all the time, mind you, but often enough to leave the stronger PC with a better idea of what it can be like for the weaker PC.

At that point, maybe the stronger PC starts being more protective towards the weaker PC, and they start working on tag-teaming efforts that allow them to combine the best of their respective skills into something that is more than just the sum of its parts.

Or not. YMMV, of course.

Sounds like you need more groups of enemies, for a party of 5 you could have 3 minion groups and 2 or 3 rivals. Don't make the minions over powered, and low combat skills for rivals. Then ther is more strategy to the PC's decision on who goes when. If 3 different pc's are under threat at the start of the round and only 1 PC slot before some NPC.

Having an 11 soak PC (6 brawn, laminate armour, 3 ranks of Enduring) and a 2 soak PC in the same group with the 11 being unable to understand why that is an issue of game balance means that providing challenging personal scale combats is a real headache for me.

I'll give some ideas, not knowing what you have tried.

Have other things that need to be done while the combat is happening. Eg a computer to slice for info, a negotiation to complete before word of the fight gets back, a delivery to make, a door to repair.

Splitting the party is in my experience the best way to deal with the situation you have. Because everyone can attempt any skill this system excels at handling a split party, I have had 5 PC's in 5 different locations. I only keep 1 initiative track, and just jump around between them. This requires you to plan mini encounters instead of very large, but it's quite often what you see in the movies. Think about the original Star Wars. When the "Party" of Luke, Obi, Han, Chewie, R2 and 3PO are on the Death Star. They split into their different groups to do the things that they are good at.

Also try to create NPC's the perk the interest of particular PC's, or have a reason to target particular individuals.

Be flexible with the stats and number of NPC's , be prepared to adjust on the fly.

If a Fighter decides to back up the Face, then beef up the security around the Negotiations table.

But on the flip side if the Sneak decided to tag along with the Bruiser then throw a weak rival in with all the toughs for them to deal with, perhaps separated slightly by the environment. Perhaps there are tough looking guards around, but a little guy on the security desk, that can't see much due to all the monitors in front of him.

The most important thing is that the players begin to trust you. That your not setting traps in every direction, but instead providing every PC the ability to do what they want and do it well. It's about trying to make a epic and cinematic story that everyone remembers.

The skills Cool and Vigilance clearly lay out uses of Triumphs and Advantages on an initiative roll that very much influence the scene so I don't know how you arrived at your conclusion, it's not vague at all in the skill descriptions.

Huh, I always assumed that the initiative roll section was self-contained. I never thought (and obviously my players too) to cross reference it against the Skill Description. Now I know! Thanks.

Now having read the two skill descriptions I am even more confused. How does a PC generate a Despair on a Simple check? (last paragraph, right column, pg 108 and 119)

Now having read the two skill descriptions I am even more confused. How does a PC generate a Despair on a Simple check? (last paragraph, right column, pg 108 and 119)

Is there any possibility that it could be an Opposed Check instead of Simple? That would be one way to generate red dice that could lead to a Despair.

Now having read the two skill descriptions I am even more confused. How does a PC generate a Despair on a Simple check? (last paragraph, right column, pg 108 and 119)

Is there any possibility that it could be an Opposed Check instead of Simple? That would be one way to generate red dice that could lead to a Despair.

An opposed initiative check?

Now having read the two skill descriptions I am even more confused. How does a PC generate a Despair on a Simple check? (last paragraph, right column, pg 108 and 119)

Is there any possibility that it could be an Opposed Check instead of Simple? That would be one way to generate red dice that could lead to a Despair.

An opposed initiative check?

That is a great way to roll for an ambush situation. Also for something like a Wild West Pistol Duel, to see who pulls their gun first (Han shoots first!)

what if you just made an app that would let you plug in your pc / gm list and then randomize the order upon clicking a button? would be similar to digital dice. keeps things random, and quick flowing.

Now having read the two skill descriptions I am even more confused. How does a PC generate a Despair on a Simple check? (last paragraph, right column, pg 108 and 119)

Is there any possibility that it could be an Opposed Check instead of Simple? That would be one way to generate red dice that could lead to a Despair.

Your Scoundrel gets herself into a high stakes sabaac game on some obscure planet. When she's accused of cheating the local customs decree that a question of honor is settled with a duel. Pistols are presented and a crowd gathers in the streets outside the bar. She stares down her opponent, spends Strain to use Rapid Reaction, and rolls an opposed Cool check. If you'd have blinked you would have missed it! She was so fast that they start calling her the Woman with No Name. People are lining up to buy her drinks. A bard writes a song about it and she becomes an instant folk legend.

But that Despair on the roll...the shot goes right through the guy's chest leaving a gaping hole (What kind of pistol did they give you? Do you get to keep this thing?) and continues on to hit a young pregnant lady in the crowd.

****.

Let's get a Medicine check to save the woman. Doc, you're up! Here's a Setback for all the whiskey you drank a few minutes ago, and hell, have one more Setback for the fact that an angry crowd is getting ready to murder your group. Oh, and I'm going to need our Scoundrel to make a social check to keep the crowd under control. I'll take Charm or Coercion, but you're going to have a stout check, maybe one of your allies is willing to help you? Or maybe they have quietly backed away and are attempting to blend into the crowd?

But I guess you could do away with those initiative checks if you really want to.

They kind of ram together the fact that both Cool and Vigilance checks can be used for other things besides initiative. Regardless of the uses of the skills, the free maneuver and Strain recovery obviously play into initiative directly, being able to take a free maneuver during the first round of combat is of course directly affecting the scene as it unfolds, which while it isn't spelled out specifically/verbatim in the rules, leads me to to the conclusion the results of the initiative roll are fair game for full narrative interpretation.

I've only run a few games. What I do with initiative to make it quick and easy for everyone is make it 10 for successes and 1 for advantages. (the use of advantages helps eliminate repeated ties)

Player 1 roll = 3 successes and 2 advantages is 32

Player 2 roll = 2 successes, no advantages is 20

NPC roll = 3 successes and 1 advantage is 31

Order = Player 1, NPC, Player 2

(Triumphs are used to break ties)