I was listening to the latest episode of Order 66 podcast (ep 64) and in the interview segment, they brought up the topic of Initiative in the SWFFG system. After running this system for about 8 months now, something was niggling me about the initiative system and it wasn’t until Sam spoke about it on the podcast that it crystallised in my head.

Since initiative is resolved as a group (a feature I really like about this system) with PCs being able to use any of “PC slots”, rolling for initiative is far less individually important in this system.

I do find that rolling for initiative, adding up the dice, working out the order can really break the flow of a tense scene and I can’t help but feel like this break in the game can be time better spent.

So taking a lead from O66, I have thought of an idea for how to speed up initiative but still take important elements into account.

Each character or minion group is given two new stats, a Cool and Vigilance rank based on “2Y+G” so if your Cool is YYG, your Cool initiative rank is 5. When initiative would normally be called for, the appropriate ranks are already calculated and bad guys just slot in using their rank as well.

(This might be needlessly complicating things) I was also thinking that there is a die that doesn’t get used very much in my games and it could provide a bit of randomness in initiative order. When the GM calls for initiative, the GM rolls the Force Die and if black, adds the number of pips shown to the bad guys Initiative rank. If white, nothing changes.

I was thinking of adding the number of white pips to PC’s rank but really, they don’t need any buffs and PCs can buy Talents that can improve initiative to help them. I was also thinking to use number of Y die as a tie breaker but that feels like it could complicate things further and a simple “PCs” win ties rule can sort this out easily.

Thoughts? Feedback?

I don't personally feel initiative should be complicated at all. I don't bother with differences between Cool and Vigilance either, I let the PCs decide what they want to use. The differences in Triumph results provide enough incentive to use either.

If you feel it detracts that much I think I'd skip a complicated new math solution and just have them roll an initiative order at the beginning of the session just like DP generation. Then it need not be done per encounter.

I'm with 2P51. Roll at the start of session if you don't want to every encounter, it keeps the randomness. You can roll quickly while doing other things mid session for NPC's

It doesn't seem any more complicated than the official passive check rule variant. You're just adding value going by the die pool rather than skill ranks, which does make more sense to me. I had a group of seven the other day and after spending a few minutes working my way through the roll results and all the chatter, the flow was all but broken.

Not sure about the Force die usage though. It makes sense as a chance mechanic for other rolls like gambling and talent use, but initiative is literally a simple check (ie, Simple - no difficulty) and making other calculations on top of that seems like it would just break the flow more.

It doesn't seem any more complicated than the official passive check rule variant. You're just adding value going by the die pool rather than skill ranks, which does make more sense to me. I had a group of seven the other day and after spending a few minutes working my way through the roll results and all the chatter, the flow was all but broken.

Not sure about the Force die usage though. It makes sense as a chance mechanic for other rolls like gambling and talent use, but initiative is literally a simple check (ie, Simple - no difficulty) and making other calculations on top of that seems like it would just break the flow more.

Yeah, if you have 7 players, it would probably be best to just have them roll their initiative at the time they are rolling the Force die for the Destiny pool generation for the night. That way you have the results already ready (and they aren't likely to change stats in the middle of a game session), so they'd be all set. Then just slot the NPCs in.

Why roll at all...maybe if there are more white destiny pips the pcs go first and flip a white pip to the darkside. If there are more darkside pips, npcs go first and flip a black pip to the lightside. In a tie, the gm picks which side goes first and flips the appropriate pip. Abilities that improve init remove the need for that character's side to flip a pip or increase number of pips the other side has to flip.

Why roll at all...maybe if there are more white destiny pips the pcs go first and flip a white pip to the darkside. If there are more darkside pips, npcs go first and flip a black pip to the lightside. In a tie, the gm picks which side goes first and flips the appropriate pip. Abilities that improve init remove the need for that character's side to flip a pip or increase number of pips the other side has to flip.

Because that just makes things horrible for whomever goes last. If all the PCs get to act, then it just becomes a wipeout of the NPCs. If the NPCs all go first, then the PCs tend to be wiped out.

Why roll at all...maybe if there are more white destiny pips the pcs go first...

Nice idea in theory, but then you'd get players refusing to use Destiny just to keep the numbers in their favour and that undermines the entire point of the mechanic.

I was listening to the latest episode of Order 66 podcast (ep 64) and in the interview segment, they brought up the topic of Initiative in the SWFFG system. After running this system for about 8 months now, something was niggling me about the initiative system and it wasn’t until Sam spoke about it on the podcast that it crystallised in my head.

Since initiative is resolved as a group (a feature I really like about this system) with PCs being able to use any of “PC slots”, rolling for initiative is far less individually important in this system.

I do find that rolling for initiative, adding up the dice, working out the order can really break the flow of a tense scene and I can’t help but feel like this break in the game can be time better spent.

So taking a lead from O66, I have thought of an idea for how to speed up initiative but still take important elements into account.

Each character or minion group is given two new stats, a Cool and Vigilance rank based on “2Y+G” so if your Cool is YYG, your Cool initiative rank is 5. When initiative would normally be called for, the appropriate ranks are already calculated and bad guys just slot in using their rank as well.

(This might be needlessly complicating things) I was also thinking that there is a die that doesn’t get used very much in my games and it could provide a bit of randomness in initiative order. When the GM calls for initiative, the GM rolls the Force Die and if black, adds the number of pips shown to the bad guys Initiative rank. If white, nothing changes.

I was thinking of adding the number of white pips to PC’s rank but really, they don’t need any buffs and PCs can buy Talents that can improve initiative to help them. I was also thinking to use number of Y die as a tie breaker but that feels like it could complicate things further and a simple “PCs” win ties rule can sort this out easily.

Thoughts? Feedback?

i think use of density is cool but if u had a dark side player wouldn't light reverse it?? and what rank do u add it too? would u make it difficult??

I don't personally feel initiative should be complicated at all. I don't bother with differences between Cool and Vigilance either, I let the PCs decide what they want to use. The differences in Triumph results provide enough incentive to use either.

If you feel it detracts that much I think I'd skip a complicated new math solution and just have them roll an initiative order at the beginning of the session just like DP generation. Then it need not be done per encounter.

it is cool or vigilance cool is for when your being stealthy and vigilance is for everything else

It doesn't seem any more complicated than the official passive check rule variant. You're just adding value going by the die pool rather than skill ranks, which does make more sense to me. I had a group of seven the other day and after spending a few minutes working my way through the roll results and all the chatter, the flow was all but broken.

Not sure about the Force die usage though. It makes sense as a chance mechanic for other rolls like gambling and talent use, but initiative is literally a simple check (ie, Simple - no difficulty) and making other calculations on top of that seems like it would just break the flow more.

lol this is ffg star wars not dnd......no such rules....

It doesn't seem any more complicated than the official passive check rule variant. You're just adding value going by the die pool rather than skill ranks, which does make more sense to me. I had a group of seven the other day and after spending a few minutes working my way through the roll results and all the chatter, the flow was all but broken.

Not sure about the Force die usage though. It makes sense as a chance mechanic for other rolls like gambling and talent use, but initiative is literally a simple check (ie, Simple - no difficulty) and making other calculations on top of that seems like it would just break the flow more.

lol this is ffg star wars not dnd......no such rules....

I never said it was D&D.

It's an official rule variant in the CRB, page 322.

I'm in favour of any house rule or official alternate rule that reduces the complexity of die rolls.

Nice idea in theory, but then you'd get players refusing to use Destiny just to keep the numbers in their favour and that undermines the entire point of the mechanic.

Not really, as they lose a pip everytime they go first. If anything it would help keep the pips moving back and forth. Plus a GM could midigate abuse by calling for initiative until the PCs will be forced to go last. Lots of little fights and chases to wear them down before the big battles that count.

Because that just makes things horrible for whomever goes last. If all the PCs get to act, then it just becomes a wipeout of the NPCs. If the NPCs all go first, then the PCs tend to be wiped out.

From my expereince, it hasn't been a slaughter when one group proceeds the other. In a numberof games, the dice have ended up with the entirerty of one group acting first and the combats going just fine without one side having a decisive advantage because of intiative. Plus in what I suggested, the side going last gains a destiny pip, so they could use that to midigate any disadvantage thay may come with acting last.

If you were affraid that a particular scenario would be fatal to one side, then perhaps adjust it so that the slots alternate between pc and npc with the number of destiny points determining which side goes first. This way characters are still staggered in action, but it is faster than rolling.

Nice idea in theory, but then you'd get players refusing to use Destiny just to keep the numbers in their favour and that undermines the entire point of the mechanic.

Not really, as they lose a pip everytime they go first.

Yeah, but not my point. If you have a system where players can maintain a static combat advantage by hoarding light side destiny points, then they're not likely going to want to spend them.

Removing incentives to spend Destiny points like that seems to invalidate the entire concept of an ebb-and-flow system.

Not really, as they lose a pip everytime they go first.

Yeah, but not my point. If you have a system where players can maintain a static combat advantage by hoarding light side destiny points, then they're not likely going to want to spend them.

Removing incentives to spend Destiny points like that seems to invalidate the entire concept of an ebb-and-flow system.

That was my thought as well. If I'm a PC at that table I would never want to give away a Destiny Point. Especially if I had a rank or two of Quick Strike. It also occurs to me that as the pool evens out the whole system would become a simple back and forth with the PCs going first then the NPCs going first next time. So why not just do that to begin with and skip this big to do?

It would also make investing in Cool/Vigilance a massive waste of XP. Along with anything like Rapid Reaction or Uncanny Reactions.

I honestly have never found the initiative check to be an issue. Even when we had 6 PCs it was quick and easy. And while I'm all about your table, your rules, I am always baffled when people come to FFGSW and then try their damnest to bugger the rules into something more complex than it was in the CRB. It almost always ends up being some mangled mess; adding more problems than it addresses and usually complicating the process it aims to streamline.

But that's just like, my opinion man.

I honestly have never found the initiative check to be an issue. Even when we had 6 PCs it was quick and easy. And while I'm all about your table, your rules, I am always baffled when people come to FFGSW and then try their damnest to bugger the rules into something more complex than it was in the CRB. It almost always ends up being some mangled mess; adding more problems than it addresses and usually complicating the process it aims to streamline.

^ this. I really don't get what's so hard about the current initiative. Just use a 2-dot notation, S:A (Successes, Advantages), numbers on the left beat numbers on the right.

Still, I have made mine a bit different (because it's still fast), I just use a 3-dot notation: T:S:A, Triumphs, Successes, Advantages. Numbers on the left beat numbers on the right. Yes, that's not quite RAW, because Triumphs can't technically be used that way, but it's simpler for people who are "rules-averse" but get a Triumph result. For the "rules-savvy" I allow them to spend their Triumphs and Advantages (reducing their total) if they can do it quickly.

I also definitely differentiate Cool and Vigilance, I find it adds great flavour. Vigilance is an itchy trigger finger; Cool is not farting and giggling while on a stakeout.

Not really, as they lose a pip everytime they go first.

Yeah, but not my point. If you have a system where players can maintain a static combat advantage by hoarding light side destiny points, then they're not likely going to want to spend them.

Removing incentives to spend Destiny points like that seems to invalidate the entire concept of an ebb-and-flow system.

That was my thought as well. If I'm a PC at that table I would never want to give away a Destiny Point. Especially if I had a rank or two of Quick Strike. It also occurs to me that as the pool evens out the whole system would become a simple back and forth with the PCs going first then the NPCs going first next time. So why not just do that to begin with and skip this big to do?

It would also make investing in Cool/Vigilance a massive waste of XP. Along with anything like Rapid Reaction or Uncanny Reactions.

I honestly have never found the initiative check to be an issue. Even when we had 6 PCs it was quick and easy. And while I'm all about your table, your rules, I am always baffled when people come to FFGSW and then try their damnest to bugger the rules into something more complex than it was in the CRB. It almost always ends up being some mangled mess; adding more problems than it addresses and usually complicating the process it aims to streamline.

But that's just like, my opinion man.

I was just offering an idea that addressed the OPs issues. Wasn't a great one, but was trying to be a bit helpful and less complex that what was presented.

I think the reason so many people end up adding to or over engineering hot fixes to the rules is that there are a lot of instances in the core rules where the mechanics of the system get in the way or seem to clash with each other stylistically. Plus the core rule books have a tendency to add new rules/mechanics on top of existing mechanics to achieve a desired effect. This sets a precedent for those trying fix things to go a more complex route. Plus not every one playing has experience with game design so sometimes not-so-great or inelegant solutions are what people come up with.

My single favourite initiative system also happens to be the simplest one to implement in basically any game.

It's been dubbed "popcorn initiative" elsewhere, which makes a degree of sense.

At the start of the first round of combat, the GM chooses who should go first from amongst the player characters, based on the circumstances at hand. At the end of each character's turn (PC and NPC), the owning player (or GM, if an NPC), chooses who goes next, out of those who are yet to act that round. The last person to act each round chooses who gets to go first next round.

And... that's it.

It's more nuanced than it looks - because acting last determines next round's start, controlling the last action means controlling the first action next round, so players and GM alike are encouraged to mix it up and pass to the opposition (because otherwise it's PC, PC, PC, PC, NPC, NPC, NPC, NPC... next turn, NPC, NPC, NPC, NPC, PC, PC, PC, PC, and the NPCs get two turns each before the PCs act again). It's also conducive to teamwork, because you can simply pass the action to whomever you've just assisted.

Integrating it into FFG's Star Wars games, I'd allow characters (on either side) to spend a Destiny Point to interrupt the action order and act immediately, rather than waiting to be passed to (but that doesn't allow an additional turn, it merely means you go sooner that round). Naturally, talents that apply to the initiative roll would need reworking, but I'm just presenting a simple, interesting option.

Something to keep in mind if you eliminate rolling dice for initiative is that you've either gutted or severely diminished the Talents Rapid Reaction and Uncanny Reactions, as well as, the Force power Foresee.

My single favourite initiative system also happens to be the simplest one to implement in basically any game.

It's been dubbed "popcorn initiative" elsewhere, which makes a degree of sense.

[...]

Integrating it into FFG's Star Wars games, I'd allow characters (on either side) to spend a Destiny Point to interrupt the action order and act immediately, rather than waiting to be passed to (but that doesn't allow an additional turn, it merely means you go sooner that round). Naturally, talents that apply to the initiative roll would need reworking, but I'm just presenting a simple, interesting option.

I really like the idea of this. I've been using an initiative system that ties a bit closer to the FFG rules, but still has the same feel as this.

The first action is decided between the two parties involved depending on the situation with an opposed vigilance or cool roll. Afterwards, the active character can choose a teammate to go next, for the cost of 2 advantage. If no advantage, or if the character chooses to spend the advantage somewhere else, like a crit or something, then it's an NPC turn. Just keep track of who went, before you start a side over, and you've got a nice blend of back-and-forth with a fast setup while still rewarding those with initiative talents. It also evens out really large parties or really small parties, makes a lone nemesis more dangerous, and allows players to feel like gaining momentum.

Being a long time DnD player, I have had no problems with the iniciative rolls at all.

We made a little house rule thatt rolling a triumph give you a free maneuver before you start.

An intesesting side effect of rolling iniciative as a group is that our fastest player is a non-combat smuggler(pilot/charmer), but he nevers takes the first action. Instead they give it to the groups commander who starts giving free manuevers and actions.

I really like this idea. I will implement it in my next game and see how it goes.

I was just offering an idea that addressed the OPs issues. Wasn't a great one, but was trying to be a bit helpful and less complex that what was presented.

I think the reason so many people end up adding to or over engineering hot fixes to the rules is that there are a lot of instances in the core rules where the mechanics of the system get in the way or seem to clash with each other stylistically. Plus the core rule books have a tendency to add new rules/mechanics on top of existing mechanics to achieve a desired effect. This sets a precedent for those trying fix things to go a more complex route. Plus not every one playing has experience with game design so sometimes not-so-great or inelegant solutions are what people come up with.

To be clear, I think the idea you presented is better than the OP suggestion. It's certainly easy enough to track and I'm a big supporter of doing less tracking. And taking turns is a perfectly valid approach if it doesn't muck with the rest of the system. Unfortunately, that isn't the case here. Which brings me to your second paragraph.

Hot fixes for gaps and snags is something I didn't meant to include in my little rant. Every system has a few places where a GM is going to have to get his hands dirty. It's something that comes with the job. What I don't care for is that (as you point out) this can often lead to messy solutions. In this particular case it comes down to the fact that it basically invalidates a couple of skills and a handful of talents. Which sucks for a PC already on the table because he's looking at a bunch of wasted XP, and it sucks at creation because suddenly a number of Specs don't look so hot when you start taking away some talents.

I mean, who wants to play a Gunslinger anymore if the system for initiative changes significantly? You're suddenly out for two ranks of Quick Strike, two ranks of Rapid Reactions, and Sorry About the Mess. That's a quarter of your talents that are either significantly less useful or in the case of RR, entirely invalidated. So in my mind that Specialization changes from "I'm your huckleberry" to "Maybe I'll play a diplomat", which is lame.

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Good stuff to think about.

Something to keep in mind if you eliminate rolling dice for initiative is that you've either gutted or severely diminished the Talents Rapid Reaction and Uncanny Reactions, as well as, the Force power Foresee.

Rapid Reaction - Suffer a number of strain up to ranks in Rapid Reaction to add an equal amount to your Initiative Rank.

Uncanny Reactions - Add 1 per rank of Uncanny Reactions to all Vigilance Initiative Rank.

Force Power Control - When checking initiative ranks at the start of a combat, the Force user may roll a Foresee power check. He may spend [White Force Pip] to add 1 to his Initiative rank for the combat.

----

It must just be me, I don't find the idea of "yellow = 2, green = 1, write the total on your sheet when you create your character, GM keeps a list" difficult math compared to rolling 7 sets of dice and working out the total result and checking with each player before the start of each combat.

Good gaming to you.

I was just offering an idea that addressed the OPs issues. Wasn't a great one, but was trying to be a bit helpful and less complex that what was presented.

I think the reason so many people end up adding to or over engineering hot fixes to the rules is that there are a lot of instances in the core rules where the mechanics of the system get in the way or seem to clash with each other stylistically. Plus the core rule books have a tendency to add new rules/mechanics on top of existing mechanics to achieve a desired effect. This sets a precedent for those trying fix things to go a more complex route. Plus not every one playing has experience with game design so sometimes not-so-great or inelegant solutions are what people come up with.

To be clear, I think the idea you presented is better than the OP suggestion. It's certainly easy enough to track and I'm a big supporter of doing less tracking. And taking turns is a perfectly valid approach if it doesn't muck with the rest of the system. Unfortunately, that isn't the case here. Which brings me to your second paragraph.

Hot fixes for gaps and snags is something I didn't meant to include in my little rant. Every system has a few places where a GM is going to have to get his hands dirty. It's something that comes with the job. What I don't care for is that (as you point out) this can often lead to messy solutions. In this particular case it comes down to the fact that it basically invalidates a couple of skills and a handful of talents. Which sucks for a PC already on the table because he's looking at a bunch of wasted XP, and it sucks at creation because suddenly a number of Specs don't look so hot when you start taking away some talents.

I mean, who wants to play a Gunslinger anymore if the system for initiative changes significantly? You're suddenly out for two ranks of Quick Strike, two ranks of Rapid Reactions, and Sorry About the Mess. That's a quarter of your talents that are either significantly less useful or in the case of RR, entirely invalidated. So in my mind that Specialization changes from "I'm your huckleberry" to "Maybe I'll play a diplomat", which is lame.

Oh yeah the idea would need lots of work to make it work with everything. That is a fundamental problem that comes with changing a fundamental part of a system.

What is kind of pet peeve of mine is that instead of people helping with solutions to a problem/broken mechanic there is just a response of "X doesn't work cause of Y" with no suggestion on how to fix it.

Instead of just saying hey it breaks these things, offer up some insights or solutions like: what if we changed it to a staggered order (sideA-slot1, sideB-slot1, sideA-slot2, sideB-slot2...) for init slots then that fixes the issues with talents that require the PC to act before a foe (like Quick Strike or Sorry About the Mess). Then maybe add in a clause that any talents/modifiers that would add a success or boost dice when determining initiative instead count that side's Destiny as one higher for each success/die added for purposes of determining initiative, all other rules/costs etc. remain unchanged. Talents/modifiers that would increase difficulty or add setback dice when determining initiative instead count that side's Destiny as one lower for each failure/die added for purposes of determining initiative, all other rules/costs etc. remain unchanged.

Not saying these are ideal, just an example of constructive feedback, I have no intent of trying to make it a workable idea as personally I like the way the core rules handle initiative and the OP is going a different direction. Also this is by no means pointing a finger at anyone, just that it would be nice in general if there was more constructive input than people poo-pooing over ideas.

I was listening to the latest episode of Order 66 podcast (ep 64) and in the interview segment, they brought up the topic of Initiative in the SWFFG system. After running this system for about 8 months now, something was niggling me about the initiative system and it wasn’t until Sam spoke about it on the podcast that it crystallised in my head.

Since initiative is resolved as a group (a feature I really like about this system) with PCs being able to use any of “PC slots”, rolling for initiative is far less individually important in this system.

I do find that rolling for initiative, adding up the dice, working out the order can really break the flow of a tense scene and I can’t help but feel like this break in the game can be time better spent.

So taking a lead from O66, I have thought of an idea for how to speed up initiative but still take important elements into account.

Each character or minion group is given two new stats, a Cool and Vigilance rank based on “2Y+G” so if your Cool is YYG, your Cool initiative rank is 5. When initiative would normally be called for, the appropriate ranks are already calculated and bad guys just slot in using their rank as well.

(This might be needlessly complicating things) I was also thinking that there is a die that doesn’t get used very much in my games and it could provide a bit of randomness in initiative order. When the GM calls for initiative, the GM rolls the Force Die and if black, adds the number of pips shown to the bad guys Initiative rank. If white, nothing changes.

I was thinking of adding the number of white pips to PC’s rank but really, they don’t need any buffs and PCs can buy Talents that can improve initiative to help them. I was also thinking to use number of Y die as a tie breaker but that feels like it could complicate things further and a simple “PCs” win ties rule can sort this out easily.

Thoughts? Feedback?

If you prefer to go that way I don't see a problem with it. If it helps, my group and I have estimated a Yellow die to be worth about 1.3 Green dice based on the average return on each die. If you're getting into talents that add blue dice I think they came out at about 0.6 green? Something like that.