There has been a lot of talk lately of both the Defender and the E-Wing being overcosted. But each have their merits and they each have a few pilots that are fielded from time to time.

My question here is, which is better, the E-Wing or the Defender? The Defender has the white K-Turn and one more hull, but the E-Wing has the all important Astromech and Systems upgrades.

Personally? I think the Defender has a bit of an edge, mainly because of the Cannon slot. Slapping a HLC on the Defender makes it a jousting beast that may actually be worth all of the points you spend on it. The E-wing is still quite solid, and Corran's ability makes finishing off enemies awesome, but there is plenty of room for debate.

Also, I realize that this thread may have been done before, but I want to hear current opinions on the matter.

E-Wing. Because System, Evade Action, Astromech, and Corran.

Corran is better than vessery or brath but defender generics are probably better than e wings. But not by much.

Ebaht is one of the best ships in the game in epic, though.

Not just epic, any of the higher point levels. I haven't played <150 points since ~wave 2, so I'm always taking Etahn.

Corran is better than vessery or brath but defender generics are probably better than e wings. But not by much.

Ebaht is one of the best ships in the game in epic, though.

I definitely gotta' give the E-Wing the edge here.

Definitely E-wings... damage potential is weaker, but the action and upgrade bars are miles ahead of the Defender (and they're marginally cheaper). +1 Hull and that 4k aren't really enough to even up that price gap vs. an already expensive ship.

Seeing as they are of different factions the comparison seems kind of pointless as you are never making a decision between one or the other.

If you are considering the effect vs. cost of ships for the purpose of competitive play, the large majority of ships and equipment in X-Wing are rendered "ineffective" during any given meta period presuming you are not trying to make an argument against meta (which people actually do all the time). In competitive play, Meta is driven by results. I don't track results with any proficiency but I'm unaware of either of these ships making a splash anywhere it might be properly challenged by meta competitive play.

With that said I personally think both of these ships are incredibly diverse, I would consider them very strong additions to a wide variety of lists. I'm not sure I would make the argument that they are cost effective, but I think they are more so today than they where in the previous meta even as far as competitive play is concerned. If for no other reason than the new Big Ship (half points on half damage) rule. In essence both of these ships have the survivability of big ships (when flown well of course) yet they don't have the drawback of earning your opponent half points when they are damaged.

To me both of these ships represent a way to have an "good at everything" type of ship and I think in large part this is what their costs are really about. Other then the cost drawback, these ships are ... well good at everything. Great offense, great defense, great dials, awesome abilities, flexible load out potential. There are very few ships in the game that don't have a clear drawback within the scope of mechanics which cost is not a part of. Cost however is the drawback and as such both of these ships are quite expensive.

In terms of which is better, I don't you could make an objective observations of these ships and not pick the E-Wing. Whatever argument you can make for the defender, the E-Wing can do it better. One extra hull is the only leverage the Defender has on the E-Wing, it beats it hands down in every other category when it doesn't match it.

In terms of which is better, I don't you could make an objective observations of these ships and not pick the E-Wing. Whatever argument you can make for the defender, the E-Wing can do it better. One extra hull is the only leverage the Defender has on the E-Wing, it beats it hands down in every other category when it doesn't match it.

Up to this point, I think your analysis is spot on. Due to the Cannon slot, the Defender can have an offensive capacity that the E-wing cannot match. An HLC is a huge firepower upgrade, particularly at Range 3. An E-wing can't really do this. This isn't to say the Defender is hands-down better, but it does have an edge in at least one way.

Rexler has never lost to Corran in all the games they've faced off in, the HLC just tears him apart faster than he can regenerate shields and he can't dodge because the k turn makes the defender the next best thing to a turret.

And now he can distress easily with PTL he's even stronger.

I've flown HLC Outmaneuver Vessery against Horn a couple of times and won fairly handily each time.

It's really easy to have 4 rerollable focused red dice against 2 greens, and that will burn through any regenerating shenanigans that Horn can muster.

I've flown HLC Outmaneuver Vessery against Horn a couple of times and won fairly handily each time.

It's really easy to have 4 rerollable focused red dice against 2 greens, and that will burn through any regenerating shenanigans that Horn can muster.

You are telling me that whoever you are flying against can't keep Vessery in arc, or avoid Vesserry's arc, with a pilot skill advantage, barrel roll and the ability to actually turn?

No offense, but anyone who lets a key 40+ point piece like Corran get outmaneuvered by a ship that can only fly straight needs some lessons.

I've flown HLC Outmaneuver Vessery against Horn a couple of times and won fairly handily each time.

It's really easy to have 4 rerollable focused red dice against 2 greens, and that will burn through any regenerating shenanigans that Horn can muster.

You are telling me that whoever you are flying against can't keep Vessery in arc, or avoid Vesserry's arc, with a pilot skill advantage, barrel roll and the ability to actually turn?

No offense, but anyone who lets a key 40+ point piece like Corran get outmaneuvered by a ship that can only fly straight needs some lessons.

Ahh the "whoever your playing sucks" fallacy.

In terms of which is better, I don't you could make an objective observations of these ships and not pick the E-Wing. Whatever argument you can make for the defender, the E-Wing can do it better. One extra hull is the only leverage the Defender has on the E-Wing, it beats it hands down in every other category when it doesn't match it.

Up to this point, I think your analysis is spot on. Due to the Cannon slot, the Defender can have an offensive capacity that the E-wing cannot match. An HLC is a huge firepower upgrade, particularly at Range 3. An E-wing can't really do this. This isn't to say the Defender is hands-down better, but it does have an edge in at least one way.

I don't know about this, a defender is paying 7 points to get 1 more attack dice and consistent 4 attack whereas Horn can go from 3 dice to up to 8 in one turn. I would say the defender has higher consistent attack dice but not more firepower and cite the abundance of double tapping Corran and the overall lack of defenders in tournaments.

I've flown HLC Outmaneuver Vessery against Horn a couple of times and won fairly handily each time.

It's really easy to have 4 rerollable focused red dice against 2 greens, and that will burn through any regenerating shenanigans that Horn can muster.

You are telling me that whoever you are flying against can't keep Vessery in arc, or avoid Vesserry's arc, with a pilot skill advantage, barrel roll and the ability to actually turn?

No offense, but anyone who lets a key 40+ point piece like Corran get outmaneuvered by a ship that can only fly straight needs some lessons.

Ahh the "whoever your playing sucks" fallacy.

Not to mention the "OMG avoid red maneuvers fallacy".

HLC also range three bonus dice which also makes a big difference.

Yes Corran can spit out six dice but even with a reroll he's unlikely to get six hits consistently his ability works great against low agility but is less effective against three agility.

As for not showing up in tournaments people never even tried they were told it sucks and went straight to the phantom.

It's taken time but people are finally waking up to its potential.

HLC also range three bonus dice which also makes a big difference.

Yes Corran can spit out six dice but even with a reroll he's unlikely to get six hits consistently his ability works great against low agility but is less effective against three agility.

As for not showing up in tournaments people never even tried they were told it sucks and went straight to the phantom.

It's taken time but people are finally waking up to its potential.

• ​yes.
• I think you mean 8 dice at range 1, potentially focused and with target lock for both attacks if he has FCS and attacked at range 2 or 3 on approach. I have seen ships absolutely wither before this, even with 3 agility.
• It isn't that it sucks, it just greatly pales compared to pre-nerf phantom.
• You mean since MK II upgrade and post-raider advanced wingmates for Vessery? It is a different meta now and it will be different after TFA and Wave 8. We will have to see the next Worlds results results to see whether these have made enough of an impact for it to be top tier.

I think Corran's double tap is only part of the reason for his success and popularity. His massive regenerating potential is the other part of that equation. The double-tap does enhance the aspect of the E-wing where the Defender has a potential advantage, and I think if we saw a Defender pilot that had an extra defensive ability, it could be as popular as Corran.

Could be, could be. I think we will see some titles come out eventually that will help out both the E-wing and Defender. I think that the generics will always be a rather poor purchase for both ships, Etahn could be a beast if a title comes out.

I think that when it comes to generics, the Defender has the advantage, especially naked. You really need to add some upgrades to the E-Wing. The named ones however seem to be more balanced.

I've played the following two lists:

Delta (Flechette Cannon)

Delta (Ion Cannon)

Delta (Mangler Cannon)

99 points

Knave (R2 Astromech, Fire-Control System, Hull Upgrade) x 3

99 points

Not against each other though. From my (limited) experience, the Deltas have a lot more potential. I barely used the cannons too. Also, the Delta can be an awesome blocker.

Personally, I think it's a bit different. I know people said different factions and it's hard to compare. I agree with that. I also think there have been a number of ships that have come out lately that help the Defender in different ways.

Twin Ion Engine Mk II helps with more green. It needed something a green that wasn't straight.

When it comes to Col. Vessery, he's gotten a number of effective Imperial ships with TL ability. Before, there really wasn't a good option to get the TL for Col. Vessery to trigger. Major Juggler has stated if you can consistently trigger his ability, then his jousting ability is strong.

X1 Title for Advanced - This fixes the Tie Advanced, but it also gives the Col. a tool to be more effective. This can be elites with Advanced Targeting Computer or generics with Accuracy Corrector that only need to grab a TL once on a target (and not use it).

TIE FO's - cheap and effective Tie Fighters that can throw out Target Locks. Yes, they aren't as cheap as regular Ties, but you can still get 4-5 FO's and the Col. in a list.

It is a bit hard to compare Col. Vessery with Corn Hole, though. One is a high PS ace and the other is a mid-level ace.

Could be, could be. I think we will see some titles come out eventually that will help out both the E-wing and Defender. I think that the generics will always be a rather poor purchase for both ships, Etahn could be a beast if a title comes out.

Help me out with this one. Isn't Etahn a beast already? I get his ability is 32 point and Howlrunner is half that but Etahn ability stretches across the board. Ethan could be on the far side and when an enemy ship inside his firing arc, Range 1-3, then anyone/anything else shooting at it may change 1 of their hit results to a critical result. Even if they are Range 8 from Etahn. So the CR-90 from across the board can get a critical.

Isn't that already kind of beasty? Even the Imperial shuttle with target locks and Howrunner require a range one limit to friendly ships.

Sort of beastly. But he's thirty two points for essentially an x wing with an extra green die.

Hes the obvious lynch pin of a list, so he needs some kind of defensive help, which boosts his price.

Now you've got ~62-68 points left to build a list to try and maximize those crits.

5 talas? 3 blue squadrons?

I have tried the ebaht swarm a few times and it never works that well in a hundred point game. In epic, as I said, he's a monster.

Could be, could be. I think we will see some titles come out eventually that will help out both the E-wing and Defender. I think that the generics will always be a rather poor purchase for both ships, Etahn could be a beast if a title comes out.

Help me out with this one. Isn't Etahn a beast already? I get his ability is 32 point and Howlrunner is half that but Etahn ability stretches across the board. Ethan could be on the far side and when an enemy ship inside his firing arc, Range 1-3, then anyone/anything else shooting at it may change 1 of their hit results to a critical result. Even if they are Range 8 from Etahn. So the CR-90 from across the board can get a critical.

Isn't that already kind of beasty? Even the Imperial shuttle with target locks and Howrunner require a range one limit to friendly ships.

I should have put some context in my post, I am referring to his use in 100 point games where his ability isn't as powerful and he plays second fiddle to Corran.

I've flown HLC Outmaneuver Vessery against Horn a couple of times and won fairly handily each time.It's really easy to have 4 rerollable focused red dice against 2 greens, and that will burn through any regenerating shenanigans that Horn can muster.

You are telling me that whoever you are flying against can't keep Vessery in arc, or avoid Vesserry's arc, with a pilot skill advantage, barrel roll and the ability to actually turn?No offense, but anyone who lets a key 40+ point piece like Corran get outmaneuvered by a ship that can only fly straight needs some lessons.

Ahh the "whoever your playing sucks" fallacy.

Not to mention the "OMG avoid red maneuvers fallacy".

If you take a Red maneuver, Vessery no longer has 4 rerollable focused red dice, now does he? That is what the poster said he had.

Corran with the right upgrades is way better than any Defender, but outside of that Defenders are better overall. E-Wings offer very little over T-70s for the points and Etahn is only good in Epic (but seriously, kill him first). Defenders have four possible choices in a regular game, E-Wings it's basically Corran or don't bother.