I think we can all agree that once you throw prize support into the equation, some people will get ugly.

Prize support or not, some people will always get ugly. Some people quite simply can't handle competition, and others can. I've seen plenty of cases of people blatantly cheating when the only thing on the line was bragging rights.

Heck I've seen people cheat at Solitaire, or get so upset that they nearly flip the table... So no prize support does not inherently make people worse, it only intensifies their behavior.

I go round-n-round on "proving intent" all the time. Perfect example:

1. Player A shoots at a "Rebel Captive" Decimator. Player B *must* get that single Stress Token ready for nobody is expected to do it for them.

2. Player B forgets. The real crime in this scenario.

3. Player A forgets, or doesn't care.

Time passes, more shots are resolved

4. Player B remembers, too late, and accuses Player A of cheating.

5. Ref / TO comes over and attempts to establish (any) Intent on Breaking the Rules.

6. Finds none.

7. Player B is very salty and continues to trash-talk Player A rudely.

...

Who is the BAD player? I thought, at least in my circle, it would always be Player B, for making the mental mistake and then later causing DRAMA--but some in my Group think it's cheating to ignore "Rebel Captive" and hope the opponent does too. While I think it's too hard to PROVE intent and therefor not cut-n-dry "cheating."

but some in my Group think it's cheating to ignore "Rebel Captive" and hope the opponent does too.

I see two issues there.

The first is that player A has in fact done something wrong. Rebel Captive is a mandatory effect, and it's actually cheating to ignore it and hope the other guy forgets. The issue there however is proving that A actually remembered. But player B is also at fault for not remembering. They're both equally at fault.

However that does not in any way excuse B's latter behavior, which is the other issue. B was just as much at fault as A was and to act that way after the fact is extremely poor sportsmanship.

I go round-n-round on "proving intent" all the time. Perfect example:

1. Player A shoots at a "Rebel Captive" Decimator. Player B *must* get that single Stress Token ready for nobody is expected to do it for them.

2. Player B forgets. The real crime in this scenario.

3. Player A forgets, or doesn't care.

Time passes, more shots are resolved

4. Player B remembers, too late, and accuses Player A of cheating.

5. Ref / TO comes over and attempts to establish (any) Intent on Breaking the Rules.

6. Finds none.

7. Player B is very salty and continues to trash-talk Player A rudely.

...

Who is the BAD player? I thought, at least in my circle, it would always be Player B, for making the mental mistake and then later causing DRAMA--but some in my Group think it's cheating to ignore "Rebel Captive" and hope the opponent does too. While I think it's too hard to PROVE intent and therefor not cut-n-dry "cheating."

I'd put the onus on player B, the card is on his ship. Its up to him to make sure his abilities are being followed. No reason to assume the opponent has all his list memorized. I'd file this under missed opportunities.

Troll post?

...maybe starting to look that way since the OP hasn't bothered to check back in to clarify or comment (shrug)

Troll post?

...maybe starting to look that way since the OP hasn't bothered to check back in to clarify or comment (shrug)

Or a Confirmation Bias that we (The X-Wing Community; at least on these forums) are all monsters that gang up on Newbies... Oh, and we're crack-smoking baby-killers--as well as ISIS. So he/she sees no reason to respond to us heathens.

" The closest I've got to a tournament breakdown was at an FLGS tourney when some guy who wasn't playing came downstairs and decided to start pointing out my trap to my opponent whilst we were on the top table. "

You see to me *thats* terrible gaming etiquette. Always used to annoy me to see people do that at work.

I'd have been well annoyed if someone had revealed my game plan to my opponent and they didnt even have a stake in the game

this is pretty shocking etiquette, without a doubt, but where do you stand on people who happen to be watching pointing out rules errors made by the players? i find it hard to keep my mouth shut when someone is playing a rule incorrectly, but i've had a few people react rather badly when i've said something, so i'm a little conflicted.

Hida77 already covered this, but calling the TO over is the right call to make. I didn't do this once and I feel awful because really, I had no say in the match. I noticed something illegal so I should have called the TO over.

I go round-n-round on "proving intent" all the time. Perfect example:

1. Player A shoots at a "Rebel Captive" Decimator. Player B *must* get that single Stress Token ready for nobody is expected to do it for them.

2. Player B forgets. The real crime in this scenario.

3. Player A forgets, or doesn't care.

Time passes, more shots are resolved

4. Player B remembers, too late, and accuses Player A of cheating.

5. Ref / TO comes over and attempts to establish (any) Intent on Breaking the Rules.

6. Finds none.

7. Player B is very salty and continues to trash-talk Player A rudely.

...

Who is the BAD player? I thought, at least in my circle, it would always be Player B, for making the mental mistake and then later causing DRAMA--but some in my Group think it's cheating to ignore "Rebel Captive" and hope the opponent does too. While I think it's too hard to PROVE intent and therefor not cut-n-dry "cheating."

There's something similar in Star Wars: The Card Game. The Dark Side player has to move the Death Star Dial up at the beginning of their turn, but the Light Side player is supposed to remind them if they don't do it because it's mandatory. There was such a problem with this in the early days, that eventually they just said that at the TO's discretion, both parties can be disqualified for forgetting mandatory triggers like Forced Reactions. Personally, that suits me fine.

If a mandatory trigger is missed, both parties must come to an agreement on how to bring the board to a legal state. If they can't agree, the TO makes the call. If it happens a second time, they're kicked out of the tournament. Seems simple to me.

No need to blast OP, guys. I do think it would be helpful to know more details about your experience which, as you can see from responses, isn't the norm.

I'm extrapolating here, but I think what OP may have meant by new players being trampled was that they were being rushed, not allowed to make changes to a boost/BR/action, etc.

I can understand the frustation from both sides:

From the rookie's point of view, they're getting punished harshly for small slip-ups or for change of decisions. Regionals also might not mean as much to them since they're new and aren't expecting to be crowned champion.

From the vet's point of view, those small slip-ups are significant deviations from a very well-defined ruleset. Regionals means phat loot is at stake and it's now or never to go all out against the best to see where you stack up. It's hard to be patient or let mistakes slide when you're in Beast Mode.

So yea, I don't believe there was as much ill intent as you thought. Your opponents were probably just stressed in a Regionals environment which as others have stated isn't the best environment to learn. In my opinion, once you get more acquainted with the game you'll quickly realize why minor mistakes, no matter how honest, can change the outcome of a game. X-wing is largely considered well-designed and balanced, and strict adherence to the rules is a large part of that.

Oh, yah! The Rebel Captive argument again.

Lemme get the popcorn.

Oh, yah! The Rebel Captive argument again.

Lemme get the popcorn.

Which is inherently an extension of the old Visage of the Emperor issue. And it goes around and around and around.

Sportsmanship: respect your opponent, play fairly, lose graciously, win magnanimously.

I just want to reiterate:

These games are not important. None of them. Regionals, Nationals, Worlds, makes no difference. The games are unimportant, and who wins and who loses is unimportant.

Always be nice to your opponent, even on the top table at Worlds.

Last weekend I played in a casual (that had prizes and that had a cost of entry) tournament last weekend. One of the ships I was flying was Dark Curse with Stealth Device. When discussing the tournament with a friend at work on Monday he said it was his view that me not reminding my opponents that any Target Locks they placed on Dark Curse couldn't be used for their normal ability was unsportsmanlike or words to that affect.

What are people's views on that? Is it unsportsmanlike to not to tell your opponent if their action is going to be a waste (I was of course completely open about my squads abilities prior to each game starting) in a tounament no matter how casual?

Casual game? I'll remind the person once that their action is wasted. After that, if they continue to forget that Dark Curse is essentially immune to target-locks, that's on them. Unless it's a newbie. Then I tend to be a lot more lenient as I view it as teaching them the game and it's intricacies. And then my dice decide that "Newbie Must Die" and I end up rolling nothing but crits

Tournament? Hell no.

Why? Because I'll ask, before the game, if my opponent is familiar with the pilot abilities/upgrades I'm using. If not, I'll go over them. And I'll ask questions about their build if it's something that on the off chance I'm not familiar with. That's before the game actually starts.

I've forgotten things in mid-game (usually missing a trigger) and I'll be like "****it...forgot to do that. Oh well."

Now, I'm not claiming to be the best player....I typically end up middle-of-the-pack in any tournament. From casual tournaments to the Atlanta regionals this year.

I've never experienced "bad sportsmanship" personally, and I've been playing since Wave One. Now, I've seen players in other games having bad sportsmanship. One instance in particular was during the Atlanta Regionals. Guy got stomped by a fairly well-known player in the X-Wing community. The guy who won...one of the nicest guys I've met, I've never heard anyone say anything bad about him. But the kid he beat? The kid was calling him an "***hole" afterwards.

So bad sportsmanship can exist from people losing too, not just the WAAC cutthroats.

Now, there's a lot of good-natured ribbing amongst the players in the Atlanta Meta. But I've rarely been witness to actual bad-sportsmanship. In all my years of playing, maybe seen it a handful of times.

I just want to reiterate:

These games are not important. None of them. Regionals, Nationals, Worlds, makes no difference. The games are unimportant, and who wins and who loses is unimportant.

Always be nice to your opponent, even on the top table at Worlds.

Yeah, I think people forget this, it is a game and people should still have fun, even at the "highest" levels. There is another post about taking advantage or not of a goof early in the game. People are losing sight of the bigger picture. There is a difference between fun and competitive and being a d-bag.

Lucky,a lot of big time players of the years have set a good example on youtube.

Always be nice to your opponent, even on the top table at Worlds.

None of that has anything to do with enforcing the rules of the game, though. And frankly, winning does matter. You shouldn't get bent out of shape if you lose, but we're playing a competitive game. Much of the fun in this game come from matching wits with your opponent. Playing to the best of your ability is part of that.

first store championship I went to had mixed results, I played a few new players of which I was one they were very friendly, played a vet who steam rolled me but was very gracious even helped move my ships when they were at his end of the table, best match I had coz he was so nice even tho he properly battered me lol, worst match was against the epic nationals champ, he laser checked absolutely everything I did, nothing he did and question all my shots even the really obvious ones. and when I asked a question about range and obstacles he was very rude and whenever he rolled his dice never left them on show for more than 0.2 of a second.

first vet I would happily lose to all day

second vet id happily punch in the face all day, and yet i was still the one to shake his hand afterwards.

Things like a guy placing one of his bro-bots facing the table edge to start a game. Opponent, said he can change it but a picture must be taken to post on FB for all to see.

Man, I always get the front and back of those things mixed up and have to look for the firing arc.

Wiz kids used to do fellowship awards. I don't know and don't care if they still do but always liked that practice. Only open to those who don't win, everyone voted at the end of the day for whoever they thought was the most sportsmanlike. It was a good practice. When I TO I try and throw stuff like that in. Usually for the dice bags.

But to the OP I've noticed that at regionals as well. I've been to two and neither were fun, and I say that having done well at both.

It also comes down to your community. Where I live we have a fantastic X wing group that have grown into a nice group of friends. Some communities also really suck and are filled with self important snobs that openly callude with each other and don't work to foster new players.

Find your tribe.

The way I see it, being able to remain focused and attentive throughout the game is just another skill a competitive player can leverage in order to win. If an opponent forgets to declare an action it's a mistake. If an opponent selects a stupid maneuver that puts him in an absurd tactical situation or off the map it's a mistake. I see no reason why, in a competition, one should allow the opponent to correct the former, but not the latter.

'Sportsmanship', some folks use it as a crutch when they forget to perform an action, don't remove or place the right token, quick-roll, etc., etc.,

There's a understood contract of trust between players, whether it be in a casual or competitive environment. But when you have to shoulder the burden of policing every bit of your opponent's play in addition to minding your own, the game just isn't worth enduring sometimes.

Let's say my opponent flies a couple of Academy Pilots, and he is the only one with PS1 ships. So when it's his turn, he moves all of them, and then puts an evade token on each of them. Then I say 'stop, you can't do that,' because by moving all ships at once he formally forfeited all their actions except one (the last one).

Of course he had done this a couple of times before in the same game, and I never said a thing. I just waited for exactly the right moment to spring my trap, when I had a clear shot at several TIEs.

Would this be showing good sportsmanship? If so, it would be a pretty neat trick against an opponent with a swarm. Many good players do their activation phase like this.

Would this be showing good sportsmanship? If so, it would be a pretty neat trick against an opponent with a swarm. Many good players do their activation phase like this.

No, it would be a jerky move if you let it go the first couple of times.

If the same PS ships all take the same non-repositioning action I wouldn't care. Just with stuff like barrel-rolls or boosts every ship would have to move/action seperately.

Would this be showing good sportsmanship? If so, it would be a pretty neat trick against an opponent with a swarm. Many good players do their activation phase like this.

No, it would be a jerky move if you let it go the first couple of times.

I mean, the slightly prevalent view here appears to be that if something is within the rules, it is not bad sportsmanship, if not perfectly okay. And I don't see anything wrong ruleswise.

I wonder if a TO would allow the rules to be suspended for a moment. If (s)he rules in favour of my opponent, (s)he knowingly allows an unambiguous rule to be broken.

Would this be showing good sportsmanship? If so, it would be a pretty neat trick against an opponent with a swarm. Many good players do their activation phase like this.

No, it would be a jerky move if you let it go the first couple of times.

But then again, if it's an important tournament and can win you the game... There's also an element of clever play here. Maybe my opponent should just watch out what he's doing?

I mean, the slightly prevalent view here appears to be that if something is within the rules, it is not bad sportsmanship, if not perfectly okay. And I don't see anything wrong ruleswise.

I wonder if a TO would allow the rules to be suspended for a moment. If (s)he rules in favour of my opponent, (s)he knowingly allows an unambiguous rule to be broken.

But you are allowing the same thing; you are allowing your opponent to break a rule, knowingly and with the intent to maximize your advantage by disallowing it the moment you can best utilize it.

First you are saying it is okay to break the rule, it does speed things up after all, and then when your opponent is used to you allowing it you suddenly say it's no longer okay, with no warning whatsoever?

Might be allowed in the rules, but it certainly is bad sportsmanship and I would call you out on it.

Would this be showing good sportsmanship? If so, it would be a pretty neat trick against an opponent with a swarm. Many good players do their activation phase like this.

No, it would be a jerky move if you let it go the first couple of times.

But then again, if it's an important tournament and can win you the game... There's also an element of clever play here. Maybe my opponent should just watch out what he's doing?

I mean, the slightly prevalent view here appears to be that if something is within the rules, it is not bad sportsmanship, if not perfectly okay. And I don't see anything wrong ruleswise.

I wonder if a TO would allow the rules to be suspended for a moment. If (s)he rules in favour of my opponent, (s)he knowingly allows an unambiguous rule to be broken.

But you are allowing the same thing; you are allowing your opponent to break a rule, knowingly and with the intent to maximize your advantage by disallowing it the moment you can best utilize it.

First you are saying it is okay to break the rule, it does speed things up after all, and then when your opponent is used to you allowing it you suddenly say it's no longer okay, with no warning whatsoever?

Yes, that is what I would do. As a player and not the TO, I would be acting within the rules if I did that.

Might be allowed in the rules, but it certainly is bad sportsmanship and I would call you out on it.

If that is all you would do, there would be no consequence, because the tournaments do not have sportsmanship regulations. So I could just ignore it.