Troll post?

That was my thought as well as the post seemingly attacks something that many X-Wingers hold dear, though my specific thought was more like "Ribann is that you?"

Of course it might well be a well-intentioned post and in that case the other replies have pretty much got it covered.

" The closest I've got to a tournament breakdown was at an FLGS tourney when some guy who wasn't playing came downstairs and decided to start pointing out my trap to my opponent whilst we were on the top table. "

You see to me *thats* terrible gaming etiquette. Always used to annoy me to see people do that at work.

I'd have been well annoyed if someone had revealed my game plan to my opponent and they didnt even have a stake in the game

The lack of specifics in the OP makes it hard to get a bead on it. So ... things happened, I guess? One man's "Newb got ganged up on" is another man's "Um, I was flying a TIE swarm." Without knowing what OP saw, who knows?

" The closest I've got to a tournament breakdown was at an FLGS tourney when some guy who wasn't playing came downstairs and decided to start pointing out my trap to my opponent whilst we were on the top table. "

You see to me *thats* terrible gaming etiquette. Always used to annoy me to see people do that at work.

I'd have been well annoyed if someone had revealed my game plan to my opponent and they didnt even have a stake in the game

this is pretty shocking etiquette, without a doubt, but where do you stand on people who happen to be watching pointing out rules errors made by the players? i find it hard to keep my mouth shut when someone is playing a rule incorrectly, but i've had a few people react rather badly when i've said something, so i'm a little conflicted.

I dunno, i mean you're perfectly at liberty to say 'you're not doing that right' but i think most people dont appreciate people getting involved with their game as its distracting for both parties.

Obviosuly its poor form if someone is *deliberately* misplaying a rule to gain an advantage though.

I think for me unless you're involved in running the event you probably shouldnt involve yourself in a game. If you have to tell the TO that table X is playing a rule wrong and get them to observe to see if its ignorance or foul play.

In casual games in a store its even trickier. For example we have a 'gaming group/house rule' that we often play (even at the local games store among ourselves), especially with new players where we allow ships that fly off the table to come back on after a turn 'double stressed' at the point the left the table.

To a casual observer it might look like we have no idea of the rules about flying off table, but we do know them, we just choose to modify them.

Likewise i allow players i know are not as good as me to go up to 10 points over on their squadron as a sort of 'handicap', to a casual observer it would look like my opponent is cheating, but they obviously are not as its with consent

Troll post?

Yours?

I've been to probably half a dozen store tournaments in the last 12 months, played hundreds of games and win or lose (mostly lose) 99.9% of the people I've encountered have been really friendly and we've had fun, enjoyable games.

I can only think of two instances where it's not really been that fun. One was a poor guy who was clearly having a bad day at the races before we even deployed (and getting tabled in less than 15 minutes probably didn't help matters much either). That wasn't due to poor sportsmanship, or bad attitude or play, it was just an apologetically one-sided match with a guy who was clearly not enjoying his day out, so totally understandable.

The other was a guy who was arguing/questioning every move and stalling for time throughout (which he really didn't need to do as he was way ahead from turn 3 onwards with no chance of a comeback, he just wanted to guarantee the 100-0).

Those are literally the only examples that spring to mind in 2 years of playing. Pretty much every other game I've played has been fun, played in good spirits and packed with laughter and excitement. Absolutely the best community of players I've ever encountered.

You guys do realize, that there is a difference between on one side the professional competitive sports like tennis, or professions in the movie industry or politics - in which you have to push every button and use your elbows and knees to guarantee your survival and a steady flow of income - and on the other recreative activities like X-Wing tournaments, which only have a material net gain in the worth of a Mc-Donalds Supersize Menu?

Because, honestly, reading many of the comments here I have the feeling that this is not the case.

While the rules for this game and its tournament organization are written as tightly as possible to avoid unnecessary discussions and delays they are in no way meant to enforce a "Win-at-all-cost"-attitude in the likes of "Page 5 Mk.I".

Overall tournaments are gatherings for all kinds of people, whose purpose - aside from determining the best player of the competition in a dice game (!) - is also to advertise it to the less experienced people to make it more popular.

To advertise it properly a certain empathic code of conduct is needed. After all, you're playing together with living people here (who are always part of your gaming experience, too), who have a certain individual view on the subject, which might not be as superimposable to the one you have.

Good experiences - especially in interaction with each other - enforce people to return to the tournament structure, thus providing you for the next time with an even bigger pool of opponents you could face in the long run.

Bad experiences on the other hand will cut down this pool pretty fast..

The line between being a stickler to the rules for "WAAC"-Reasons and for being one just for proper procedure in order to secure clearity is surely a murky one, but from my personal experience it is better executed with a gentlemans approach to ensure both the players a good game rather than a forced victory for the stickler because his opponent made a slight protocolary mistake during game play.

Beating someone solely with a procedure book rather than your own abilities isn't a good win.

Winning in a tense game while helping each other out to keep up the games structure is exemplary and should be advertised as the proper way of sportsmanship as much as possible.

After all it's the latter which is meant by "Flying Casual" rather than the former...!

I have been part of a few competitive communities in my time gaming and without a doubt, the single best community I have ever been a part of has been the X-Wing Community. I have been participating in tournaments since late 2014 and in the early going was was introduced to a term that the first world champion, Mr. Doug Kinney started and that was 'Fly Casual' Basically it means to bring your best to the table when playing, but don't be a jerk. Be respectful of your opponent, ensure to be kind and treat others as you want to be treated. In all the time and all the events I have attended I have only had one bad experience and that was due to someone's 'questionable' dice rolling technique.

Almost without question every one I have played has been great, amazing people who just want to roll dice, have fun, and of course win the game! It is a shame that you had a bad experience. The killer here is that as this game gets bigger and more popular, the more it will attract those trolls who are only there to kick face and take names. We as a community need to weed these kinds of people out. We either need to introduce them to 'Fly Casual' or tell them that they are not being kind. So people may not even realize how unkind they are being until it is brought to their attention.

As a whole, I do not believe that X-Wing needs sportsmanship scores because most folks are already doing such a great job. I credit Doug for setting the competitive tone so very early. Now that being said... in game systems that do foster a 'scoring' system for sportsmanship... I have found that the gamers game that system as well and ham it up to get those points. Its not genuine, its fake and feels very wrong.

is also to advertise it to the less experienced people to make it more popular.

That's the point of casual tournaments, but it's not the point of premier events especially not Regionals.

In fact the rules quite clearly state what is expected of people playing in premier events. Being a newbie who doesn't understand the rules is contrary of what's expected.

To advertise it properly a certain empathic code of conduct is needed.

That's why most of us try to fly casual. But fly casual doesn't mean we aren't playing to win. Fly casual does not mean you should expect to able to fix mistakes, or that someone will go easy on you.

Beating someone solely with a procedure book rather than your own abilities isn't a good win.

As if this actually happens. I've never played a game where winning/losing is decided solely by a single case of a rules issue or even a single action.

Edit: and let's be clear here, based on what I read in the OP, it seems the person most guilty of poor sportsmanship is the OP himself, or at least of not having a good understanding of what they were about to get into. A good sport is one who makes sure they understand the rules before getting involved in a game, or at least will not expect people to play down to their level.

Beating someone solely with a procedure book rather than your own abilities isn't a good win.

As if this actually happens. I've never played a game where winning/losing is decided solely by a single case of a rules issue or even a single action.

My first match at GenCon 2013 was against a player running Vader/Fel+PTL/Turr Phennir+VI. He focused and barrel rolled Turr into my Bounty Hunter's arc at Range 1, spent the token on his attack, and then declared a second barrel roll that would have taken him out of arc. I called the TO over (James Kniffen, as it happened), who confirmed that free actions are still subject to the once-per-round limitation.

When I returned fire, I one-shotted his token-less Interceptor.

" The closest I've got to a tournament breakdown was at an FLGS tourney when some guy who wasn't playing came downstairs and decided to start pointing out my trap to my opponent whilst we were on the top table. "

You see to me *thats* terrible gaming etiquette. Always used to annoy me to see people do that at work.

I'd have been well annoyed if someone had revealed my game plan to my opponent and they didnt even have a stake in the game

I think my glare got the message through. I still walked away with second place so I wasn't bothered by the end of the day. Really did irk me at the time though, especially as he was walking an Aggressor right into the jaws of Hell.

" The closest I've got to a tournament breakdown was at an FLGS tourney when some guy who wasn't playing came downstairs and decided to start pointing out my trap to my opponent whilst we were on the top table. "

You see to me *thats* terrible gaming etiquette. Always used to annoy me to see people do that at work.

I'd have been well annoyed if someone had revealed my game plan to my opponent and they didnt even have a stake in the game

this is pretty shocking etiquette, without a doubt, but where do you stand on people who happen to be watching pointing out rules errors made by the players? i find it hard to keep my mouth shut when someone is playing a rule incorrectly, but i've had a few people react rather badly when i've said something, so i'm a little conflicted.

Personally; I think rules errors are different from tactical input. I'd be fine with someone pointing out a rules error, mistakes happen and a game has rules otherwise; what's the point? That and it's not a fair playing field when when the rules are different on half the tables. If someone points out an error to me I'm usually apologetic because I hate cheating, it spoils the game. A fake win is no win to anyone. I rolled an extra agility dice in one of my games at the last tourney (**** BLT TLT y-wings) because I got the extra dice against the primary but not the TLT (secondary weapen = no range bonus). I said "I'm sorry about that; it's 2 blanks so I'm happy to call it a blank or re-roll. Up to you mate.". Genuine mistake and my opponent was happy to call it a blank and proceeded to the final attack amicably. Happy days.

When I returned fire, I one-shotted his token-less Interceptor.

But winning or losing isn't based purely on that one interaction. Wednesday I was playing a Poe, Jake, Keyan list, against a mix Imp list. I killed a phantom and tie fighter fairly quickly. But the other guy came back to win the game.

Rarely is a single action, even one as costly as the one you listed going to the one and only thing that decides the game. The other guy could of in theory at least still came back to win, or you could of gone on to lose the game due to poor decisions on your part.

Has anyone else mentioned "Sportsmanship" is totally subjective? I will.

I've played Chess AND Go competitively (Honolulu), Street Fighter 2 competitively (Honolulu), M:TG competitively (Honolulu and California) and X-Wing competitively.

It never fails... no matter how nice I think I am... no matter how respectful of my opponent I think I am being... I get called an ******* frequently. Which, I do not contest, logically (odds are). But I'm also aware of False Positive(s) in this critical review of my behavior--case by case. One thing I find striking is that the accuser is often given all power in the debate/claim, and the squeakiest wheel always gets greased.

So, SQUEAK on Original Poster... SQUEAK loud. But don't confuse a need for Shelter/SafeSpaces with Pride. Ever.

The line between being a stickler to the rules for "WAAC"-Reasons and for being one just for proper procedure in order to secure clearity is surely a murky one, but from my personal experience it is better executed with a gentlemans approach to ensure both the players a good game rather than a forced victory for the stickler because his opponent made a slight protocolary mistake during game play.

Beating someone solely with a procedure book rather than your own abilities isn't a good win.

Winning in a tense game while helping each other out to keep up the games structure is exemplary and should be advertised as the proper way of sportsmanship as much as possible.

After all it's the latter which is meant by "Flying Casual" rather than the former...!

Forgetting a core mechanic of the game isn't a "slight protocolary mistake." Nor is forgetting what your ships and pilots and upgrades do. That's the essence of the game. And honestly, in a competitive tournament, I have enough to worry about with my own squad to pay attention to what my opponent's is supposed to be doing. I'm there to compete and offer a good competitive experience for my opponent. I'm not there to make sure they don't make any mistakes. Just as I wouldn't expect them to do that for me.

Casual game day or tourney? Sure, I'll ask, "Do you want to take any actions?" or remind them about a card. But a regional or above? You should bring your A-game. And capitalizing on your opponent's mistakes while minimizing your own is just as much a part of competitive play as planning maneuvers and rolling dice.

Rarely is a single action, even one as costly as the one you listed going to the one and only thing that decides the game.

'Rarely' doesn't mean 'never'. And yes, I'd encountered such a situation where a called out just procedural mistake - which was noticed but not mentioned at the time I made it - cost me the game and thus the tournament. A casual tournament, I might add.

If it would have been a Regional or above, there wouldn't have been anything to argue about, that I agree with...!

Back to the OPs thought about sportsmanship...

Isn't sportsmanship just an outward manifestation of an inward aspiration to fully demonstrate one's prowess in any form of fair competition? It seems to me that the sportsman only finds valid admiration (for the exercise of legitimate prowess) to be rewarding.

But those who (through whatever combination of character flaws) crave the reward of admiration without fairly earning it are not sportsman. Neither will they become sportsman by because graded on something they fail to possess.

Good sportsmanship requires, at the very least, a certain degree of unfeigned humility. If a person is truly convinced that they are better than other people, they will become frustrated when other people best them in fair competition. They may even feel cheated, and as a consequence of their unmerited pride, therefore feel justified in cheating themselves in order to even out the playing field. This sort of narccisism is typically "parented" out of most people, becauase (let's face it) it is an immature way of looking at, and dealing with, life. But some people manage to make it to adulthood secure in the delusion that they are better than everyone else and therefore deserve favor and admiration, and when their skill cannot win them this admiration, they respond with the frustration of a child that we describe as being "un-sportsman",

What they need is the sort of genuine humility one only gets that through actual humiliation.

Rewarding good behavior is just a passive-aggressive way of punishing bad behavior. I think it is wrong to reward people for having been brought up right, and I also think that passive-aggressively punishing poor sportsmanship misses the mark - just call it what it is - childish behavior - and ban people who haven't showed themselves mature enough to play with adults yet.

But that's me - I don't feel it is my responsibility to parent every immature adult I come across.

Rewarding good behavior is just a passive-aggressive way of punishing bad behavior.

I never thought of it that way, but you do have a point. Bad behavior should be punished, I think everyone would agree with that. But honestly good behavior should be what we expect as the default, and should receive no reward.

Rewarding good behavior is just a passive-aggressive way of punishing bad behavior.

I never thought of it that way, but you do have a point. Bad behavior should be punished, I think everyone would agree with that. But honestly good behavior should be what we expect as the default, and should receive no reward.

You and DanDoulogos said it better than I ever could. But I want reiterate my post's caveat in light of this mutual clarity: Falsely Accusing others of "bad" behavior in order to get "up" on them in a tournament happens a lot in Chess circles... And I can see the telltale hints of it, and other "Im offended therefor..." feelings of entitlement, all over the original post.

Once we start punishing "Bad" anything... we must be very committed to oversight in regards to what is objectively bad in the first place. It isn't always black-n-white.

First, to address the spectator talking:

From a TO's perspective, you (as either a player or fellow spectator) should call the judge over immediately if someone makes a comment in earshot of the players about the state of the game or what either player should do. As a TO, I would warn the person who made the comment and ask them to not make any additional comments. If they persisted again, I would ask that the leave the play area. If they returned and made more comments, I would likely eject/DQ that person.

If you are spectating, it is very, very important you do not hamper the players playing in any way. If they play something incorrectly and do not call a judge, that is on both players, not the spectators to cover.

To the OP and larger sportsmanship issue:

I have found the exact opposite to be true. X-Wing players have, in my opinion, been very easy to handle sportsmanship-wise and do not typically fall into sportsmanship issues. Sure, there are always a few bad apples, but they are the exceptions, not the rule.

As an example, my first game at worlds last year was against a TIE Swarm, I was playing 3 Elite Xs, a game I have no business winning. In the opening pass I managed to one-shot Howlrunner and kill an AP and roll 2 dodges several times (only partially helped from Luke) on most, if not all of the incoming fire. But my opponent had a good sense of humor and while I could tell he wanted to win, he stayed positive about it. He asked a turn later for me to use his dice, which I was happy to do since I could admit I was getting really ridiculously lucky in a game I had no business even being close in. My luck persisted for a while, but then swung and he did a good job of being personable and friendly despite the adversity. Time was called when I had 1 X left (barely) to his 3 TIEs. I conceded the match at that point and thanked him for being so sporting. He deserved to win, but I was happy with how he had handled it and I like to think we both came away from that game having had fun.

I think this type of thing is very common in X-Wing. Nobody made any obviously costly mistakes, but my luck greatly impacted how it had gone. But we both had a sense of humor about it and I like to think the correct conclusion was reached. We both came away with a smile, a story, and the player who deserved it got the win. Just an example of what I would consider great sportsmanship, even in one of the highest events each year.

As far as missed opportunities, I know I might have let you get the tokens or adjust a maneuver depending on the situation, but I do have a limit even in a friendly game. If I have to remind you constantly to do actions after doing a maneuver (or similar), I will eventually stop and be a bit more unforgiving about it. But no player is obligated to be this nice. As someone else has stated, I'd rather win with you at your best than get lucky you placed an obviously silly maneuver or something, but at an event like regionals/nationals/worlds, you cannot expect any player to be like that,

It is explicit in the rules that you be competent at this level of event. As a TO, if I were called over I would say to you, too bad, sorry.

Something I frequently do in many games is say the phases out loud as we move from one step to another. It is partially a reminder to myself to not forget things and partially a way to inform my opponent of where we are if he has any abilities he wants to to trigger. I have found it helps on both sides. If I say "Action?" after my opponent moves a ship and he still proceeds, then he cannot say I didn't give him the opportunity to take an Action if he desired it, and likewise, I am less likely to forget to take them myself (as an example).

Bottom Line: if your opponent acted within the bounds of the rules, there is no room to be upset about sportsmanship. Good sportsmanship does not equate with "playing as the rules suit us". But I find that many players will be willing to bend the rules here and there to have a more sporting game as appropriate, even at major events.

Once we start punishing "Bad" anything... we must be very committed to oversight in regards to what is objectively bad in the first place. It isn't always black-n-white.

I agree completely. That's really the whole point of a TO, and why I wish FFG would hurry up with their Judge program.

A To should be able to look at a given situation and make a judgement about what if any penalty is required. The 'bad' behavior may be due to a misunderstanding of the rules, a miscommunication, or an attempt to cheat. But when you start talking about intention you need a person to figure that out.

For example. Let's say I move my ship, and after you move yours I put an evade token on it.

It's possible that I'm a new player and don't know that doing so isn't allowed, especially if I've played mostly casual where things like that are allowed to slide (which btw is why I tend to not let them slide even in friendly games).

Or maybe I wasn't done yet, and the other player jumped the gun, not giving me enough time to decide what to do. They thought I was done with my activation, but I wasn't really done yet. Which could actually be a way that the other person was trying to cheat, by robbing me of my chance to finish my activation.

Or maybe I was waiting to see where your ship ended up before I decided what I wanted to do.

It really takes a real person to look at the situation and consider what has happened in the past to be able to decide which one of those three is the real reason behind the behavior.

Last weekend I played in a casual (that had prizes and that had a cost of entry) tournament last weekend. One of the ships I was flying was Dark Curse with Stealth Device. When discussing the tournament with a friend at work on Monday he said it was his view that me not reminding my opponents that any Target Locks they placed on Dark Curse couldn't be used for their normal ability was unsportsmanlike or words to that affect.

What are people's views on that? Is it unsportsmanlike to not to tell your opponent if their action is going to be a waste (I was of course completely open about my squads abilities prior to each game starting) in a tounament no matter how casual?

What are people's views on that?

He's wrong, plain and simple. I would say it's good sportsmanship to remind people once, but there is a place between good and bad sportsmanship. Just because you aren't doing something that is considered good, does not automatically mean you're doing something bad.

Now if you were playing a complete newbie who bought the core set 5 minutes ago... Or just someone who hadn't played a lot. You should take that into consideration on how much you tell someone.

But no one should ever feel they're required to point out someone else's mistake.

I think we can all agree that once you throw prize support into the equation, some people will get ugly. That is just the nature of the beast. fortunatly, in my area we have a very large and very good community. Things like a guy placing one of his bro-bots facing the table edge to start a game. Opponent, said he can change it but a picture must be taken to post on FB for all to see. That is good sportsmanship with some friendly razing. (happened at a tournament I was at recently). Where as "no I wont let you cloak your Phantom after someone else has shot", is not good or bad sportsmanship. It is the opponents right to let you or not. I think we need to see specific examples from the OP before we could judge what happened. I know my first tournament day I got completely hammered by a player and was really upset by how the tournament was run. Now, 2 years later and knowing the people involved a bit more, I see there was nothing shady going on. Just some players are better than others, and some times you dice just say BOHICA no matter how good you fly. The best bet is to take the good with the bad and try to enjoy every game. And sometimes, when you are up against that guy that is a jerk, kill them with kindness. Something like "ok it looks like you forgot a focus token. would you like to go back and add that?" That type of think makes them look really bad and you look really good. You might not win the game but you will know that you are the better person.

Last weekend I played in a casual (that had prizes and that had a cost of entry) tournament last weekend. One of the ships I was flying was Dark Curse with Stealth Device. When discussing the tournament with a friend at work on Monday he said it was his view that me not reminding my opponents that any Target Locks they placed on Dark Curse couldn't be used for their normal ability was unsportsmanlike or words to that affect.

What are people's views on that? Is it unsportsmanlike to not to tell your opponent if their action is going to be a waste (I was of course completely open about my squads abilities prior to each game starting) in a tounament no matter how casual?

That's a little excessive in my opinion. I can see explaining your force as a rule at a casual event as not everyone will understand the implications of every combo. However being expected to remind them every time they TL is going too far. Its practically flying for them.