If that is all you would do, there would be no consequence, because the tournaments do not have sportsmanship regulations. So I could just ignore it.

Ignore it all you want, such behaviour would make you a jerk. .

As TO I would remove a player from the tournament according to the rules due to unsportsmanlike conduct.

It is knowingly and willingly abusing the rules by first ignoring them and then enforcing them when it's most advantageous to you.

Would this be showing good sportsmanship? If so, it would be a pretty neat trick against an opponent with a swarm. Many good players do their activation phase like this.

I'm not saying this in a snarky Internet "You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Seem To Think It Means" sort of way, but... I'm genuinely not sure you understand what "good sportsmanship" means in this context. Because what you're describing is kind of the opposite.

Would this be showing good sportsmanship? If so, it would be a pretty neat trick against an opponent with a swarm. Many good players do their activation phase like this.

I'm not saying this in a snarky Internet "You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Seem To Think It Means" sort of way, but... I'm genuinely not sure you understand what "good sportsmanship" means in this context. Because what you're describing is kind of the opposite.

Well, if you look a bit closer, you might notice that it is a question...

Well, if you look a bit closer, you might notice that it is a question...

It is a question, but your next post certainly suggests you already have an answer in mind:

But then again, if it's an important tournament and can win you the game... There's also an element of clever play here. Maybe my opponent should just watch out what he's doing?

I mean, the slightly prevalent view here appears to be that if something is within the rules, it is not bad sportsmanship, if not perfectly okay. And I don't see anything wrong ruleswise.

I wonder if a TO would allow the rules to be suspended for a moment. If (s)he rules in favour of my opponent, (s)he knowingly allows an unambiguous rule to be broken.

I mean, when you're writing "Maybe my opponent should just watch out?" it's hard to claim that you're just asking questions.

Your Devil's Advocate game is strong Lingula - I like it! As much as it is correct to rigidly apply the rules, being overly officious seriously sucks the life out of the game.

Let's say my opponent flies a couple of Academy Pilots, and he is the only one with PS1 ships. So when it's his turn, he moves all of them, and then puts an evade token on each of them. Then I say 'stop, you can't do that,' because by moving all ships at once he formally forfeited all their actions except one (the last one).

Of course he had done this a couple of times before in the same game, and I never said a thing. I just waited for exactly the right moment to spring my trap, when I had a clear shot at several TIEs.

Would this be showing good sportsmanship? If so, it would be a pretty neat trick against an opponent with a swarm. Many good players do their activation phase like this.

What i've taken to doing is stating what the action for all of the swarm members is at the end of the first move- in that way I follow the rules and then put the tokens down afterward. This satisfies the letter of the rule and lets me use the template first and get the tokens out later. I would not change my mind afterward, of course, because by stating my action I committed to it for all of them.

These is no such thing as sportsmanship. There are only green dice.

I've played in a lot of Store/Regional kits plenty of Organized play kits and one National event and I have only once come across something I'd say was against sportsmanship: Opponent was flying 3 Z + Han, He had deployed Han in front of a rock and I expected him to just to a 3/4 speed through it and commit to the fight, instead he sharp 1 turned away from the rock while committing his Z's Lost all 3 for no losses on my side then went over to the TO and complained I was slow playing because of his own mistake.

I don't even see running away as anti-sportsman like - at least in Store/Regional/national level. If you are winning and don't feel like you can end it with dice then playing survival is a strategy, if your opponent can't out fly you trying to run away that is their problem for either committing too hard to the chase or not chasing hard enough.

Would this be showing good sportsmanship? If so, it would be a pretty neat trick against an opponent with a swarm. Many good players do their activation phase like this.

I'm not saying this in a snarky Internet "You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Seem To Think It Means" sort of way, but... I'm genuinely not sure you understand what "good sportsmanship" means in this context. Because what you're describing is kind of the opposite.

Well, if you look a bit closer, you might notice that it is a question...

Well yeah. But if someone said "my car's the same colour as my lawn. Is that red?" I don't think it's unreasonable to ask whether we're both talking about the same thing.

Would this be showing good sportsmanship? If so, it would be a pretty neat trick against an opponent with a swarm. Many good players do their activation phase like this.

I'm not saying this in a snarky Internet "You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Seem To Think It Means" sort of way, but... I'm genuinely not sure you understand what "good sportsmanship" means in this context. Because what you're describing is kind of the opposite.

Well, if you look a bit closer, you might notice that it is a question...

Well yeah. But if someone said "my car's the same colour as my lawn. Is that red?" I don't think it's unreasonable to ask whether we're both talking about the same thing.

Let's be clear here since sometimes context can get lost over the internet. Lingula is not suggesting that those actions would constitute good sportsmanship. He is providing it as an instance where following the rules might NOT be construed as good sportsmanship. Which is contrary to the claims of many that simply following the rules no matter what is always good sportsmanship. He's posing the question to stimulate discussion, not because he's genuinely uncertain as to whether or not that would be good sportsmanship.

I have unfortunately come across a bad case of sportsmanship in X-Wing. The person in question conveniently forgot about rules like the fact that they can only check ranges for the ship that is attacking. I pulled them up on it but I wondered how many others that didn't realise, and let it slip. The player in question had placed in a Regional event so "being new to the game" was not the case here and it was not accidental. They simply pushed for every advantage they could get whether they were allowed to or not.

Except Lingula isn't following the rules in that example. Not calling your opponent on a rules mistake the first time with the intent of calling them on it later for a tactical advantage isn't following the rules. That would be telling your opponent to say the action as he activates the first time.

For that matter, any sensible TO would let the opponent take the action and ask them to make sure to say each fighter takes an action before they activate the next one, then tell the first player to stop being a jerk and either ask people to follow the letter of the rules the first time or shut up.

Except Lingula isn't following the rules in that example. Not calling your opponent on a rules mistake the first time with the intent of calling them on it later for a tactical advantage isn't following the rules. That would be telling your opponent to say the action as he activates the first time.

In any case, if you make a mistake and the opponent does not call you out, then you do not have earned the right to repeat that mistake. So if you're doing something wrong for the fourth time, it's still wrong.

There's a difference between not noticing and noticing but intentionally ignoring it up until the moment it's most beneficial for you not to. One should be consistent in one's implementation of the rules, anything else is simply underhanded and unsportsmanlike. If I were a TO and saw you trying to pull this I'd allow the actions (assuming there were no repositioning actions), tell your opponent that from then on he should announce them as he's moving (so the he doesn't have to put down the template between every ship movement) and let the match continue, possibly giving you a warning depending on your attitude and how clear your intentions are. To me, intent is as important as the letter of the rules.

In any case, if you make a mistake and the opponent does not call you out, then you do not have earned the right to repeat that mistake. So if you're doing something wrong for the fourth time, it's still wrong.

There's a difference between not noticing and noticing but intentionally ignoring it up until the moment it's most beneficial for you not to. One should be consistent in one's implementation of the rules, anything else is simply underhanded and unsportsmanlike. If I were a TO and saw you trying to pull this I'd allow the actions (assuming there were no repositioning actions), tell your opponent that from then on he should announce them as he's moving (so the he doesn't have to put down the template between every ship movement) and let the match continue, possibly giving you a warning depending on your attitude and how clear your intentions are. To me, intent is as important as the letter of the rules.

When I read OP, I interpret him as saying "we need some way to stimulate good behaviour". And frankly, when I read your reponse in that light, it doesn't seem that far fetched. The basic goal is something we can agree on here, the disagreement is more on where the line is drawn, what to do in cases where it is crossed, and how to prevent manipulation. What I reject is the idea that "we don't need any notion of sportsmanship because the game has concise rules."

It was a Regional. You really expect people to pull punches at one of the most important tournaments of the year

See this is where I think sportsmanship is *most* important. Anyone can fly casual when nothing is on the line, it is when a person is 6 games into a regional and their near mentally exhausted opponent forgets to place Focus token when it is clear that is what they meant to do, that is when quality of a player's sportsmanship and fly casual is tested.

I think the real sportsmanship is accepting your mistakes and not putting the other player in the position of having to say no when you ask for a takeback.

Panzeh...

AT first I was thinking NO you're dead wrong. But I think you're actually dead right. The good sportsman here looks at his ship without focus and says "Well that will probably cost me" and then does all he can in that turn to make sure that forgotten focus doesn't get his pilot killed. Shift a Barrel roll into a boost on a buddy, push a firestorm on a n enemy to make him spend his own focus defending- that sort of thing. Asking for a take-back is putting your opponent in a bad situation. and being a good sport is about owning up to when you dropped the ball- as well as putting in the extra oomph to pick it the hell back up!

AN excellent point!!!! OP and others flaming him should all think about what you've said.

NOW I have seen my share of jerks. And at times maybe I've even been a jerk. I tend to stay away from tournaments because tehy bring out a dark side in me- but I have seen them be lots of fun and they certainly make you think about what you;re doing more...

What I reject is the idea that "we don't need any notion of sportsmanship because the game has concise rules."

The problem is, that most times situations like this require the intent to be known.

Take the classic example of Rebel Captive. There's a huge difference between both sides forgetting the stress token and one side forgetting and other taking advantage of that fact. Cheating is typically defined as breaking the rules intentionally. There's two ways to deal with it, one is a penalty regardless of intent or only in the case of intent.

Most systems tend to disregard intent, because it's so hard to judge, and in most cases unintentionally breaking the rules has the same impact as intentionally doing so.

There is a point in which good sportsmanship transcends the rules, and there's cases where poor sportsmanship can fit completely within the rules.

But we as a community will never come to complete agreement on this, because these one off cases will depend greatly on intention, and a fair amount of 'he said/she said'.

Going with your example... What if I warned the other person the twice not to do that, yet they kept on doing it, and so when I got to 3 strikes and you're out, it just so happened to be an ideal situation for me. Am I guilty of poor sportsmanship then?

The real problem is, not everyone plays the game for the same reason, and if we can't agree on something that basic we'll never agree on more nuanced issues.

When you have a group of people who believe that all mistakes should be forgiven, and one group that plays strictly by the rules, with anywhere between 2 and 0 mistakes forgiven... You can't really come to an agreement when people are that diametrically opposed.

Now I think there's a point in which there doesn't need to be agreement. If you can't or won't see X-Wing as a competitive event, then the best thing may be for you just to stay clear of the events that are designed to be competitive in nature.

AT first I was thinking NO you're dead wrong. But I think you're actually dead right.

IMO it's the height of poor sportsmanship to ask. But the contrary is not true, it's not the height of good sportsmanship to offer. Because forgetting a focus token, barrel rolling left when you wanted to go right, or taking a 3 left turn when a 1 straight was a better choice... All of those things are what make up the skill of playing X-Wing.

There is nothing unsportsmanlike about taking advantage of someone's mistake.

Edit: And not everyone has to agree to that, because sportsmanship is at least somewhat subjective. That's why I think sportsmanship scores like they did in 40k was such a colossal mistake, because people could use them based on their opinions, and more often than not as a way to punish someone for doing something they didn't like. Which is of course extremely poor sportsmanship.

My issue is when you have people starting to attack someone else's character over a difference of opinion, or trying to punish them in some way.

Unlimitedly sportsmanship is best decided by a neutral party on a case by cases basis, and not something that can or should be codified in a system of rules.

When I read OP, I interpret him as saying "we need some way to stimulate good behaviour". And frankly, when I read your reponse in that light, it doesn't seem that far fetched. The basic goal is something we can agree on here, the disagreement is more on where the line is drawn, what to do in cases where it is crossed, and how to prevent manipulation. What I reject is the idea that "we don't need any notion of sportsmanship because the game has concise rules."

The tournament rules do punish bad sportsmanship, at least in theory- Head judges do have discretion to penalize or eject players who behave poorly. Now, you might feel that there isn't enough done by judges to encourage good sportsmanship, in which case we have a few things we can do;

1) Discourage any stigmatizing of calling judges over. Obviously, people can try to abuse the right to call a judge over. Fortunately, Judges are not robots- They can spot this sort of behavior, and make players stop it. So, unless a judge calls you out on it, you're fine calling a judge.

2) Encourage FFG to work on instituting an official judge program. This would likely include training and guides as to how to handle common situations, as well as providing a measure of insurance as to the quality of Judges available (in theory). I believe I've heard people say FFG is working on that, but some pressure from us would likely encourage them to put more effort into getting it out quickly.

If there's another system you can propose that wouldn't be easily abused like Sportsmanship scores can be (To be fair, I have talked to people who liked them. But that crowd also took them very seriously, treating the Sportsmanship trophy as the game's highest honor, and the judges there generally knew what to look for when people were using it to be jerks to their opponent).

But, regarding the specific case where you were playing devil's advocate: The difference is intent. It's one thing if a player were to miss a minor rules breach the first few times, then notices it when it has a noticeable affect on the game (I'd argue your example doesn't- It'd be a different matter if positioning actions were involved, though). It's another thing for a player to not point out such a rules violation the first time in hopes of calling out an opponent at a tactically significant time, which is what you explicitly described.

Obviously, determining which behavior is actually occurring in a real life situation would be difficult, and such situations are usually resolved by the judgement of an impartial third party- the TO. Now, this isn't always popular because it can come down to, "He said, she said." But it's better than deciding via shouting match. Or taking ten minutes to resolve the argument and going to time.

Let's say my opponent flies a couple of Academy Pilots, and he is the only one with PS1 ships. So when it's his turn, he moves all of them, and then puts an evade token on each of them. Then I say 'stop, you can't do that,' because by moving all ships at once he formally forfeited all their actions except one (the last one).

Of course he had done this a couple of times before in the same game, and I never said a thing. I just waited for exactly the right moment to spring my trap, when I had a clear shot at several TIEs.

Would this be showing good sportsmanship? If so, it would be a pretty neat trick against an opponent with a swarm. Many good players do their activation phase like this.

Let me answer with one word. No.

Dear God I hate these topics.

Would this be showing good sportsmanship? If so, it would be a pretty neat trick against an opponent with a swarm. Many good players do their activation phase like this.

I'm not saying this in a snarky Internet "You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Seem To Think It Means" sort of way, but... I'm genuinely not sure you understand what "good sportsmanship" means in this context. Because what you're describing is kind of the opposite.

Well, if you look a bit closer, you might notice that it is a question...

Well yeah. But if someone said "my car's the same colour as my lawn. Is that red?" I don't think it's unreasonable to ask whether we're both talking about the same thing.

Let's be clear here since sometimes context can get lost over the internet. Lingula is not suggesting that those actions would constitute good sportsmanship. He is providing it as an instance where following the rules might NOT be construed as good sportsmanship. Which is contrary to the claims of many that simply following the rules no matter what is always good sportsmanship. He's posing the question to stimulate discussion, not because he's genuinely uncertain as to whether or not that would be good sportsmanship.

Actually it was pretty obvious - if one has the ability to read between the lines other than just reading them RAW...!