R: After your opponent removes any number of cards from the game, they lose 2 vitality. - Does that count any effect that would have YOU remove their cards from the game (IE : Twilight Embrace, Proficient Sniper, etc.)

you could react with those things. It also goes off when the oppnoent removes cards from the game when they go through their deck

Why has the same question been asked like 2-3 times in the last 2 weeks?

The reason is that we haven't recieved an official clarification and inquiring minds want to know.

aslum said:

And the search function sucks balls.

And because we've grown so accustomed to a card not playing like it should because of how it's written that we HAVE to anticipate possible problems at each turn.

If they would give us answer we would stop. But, I guess we are going to have to bug them until they do.

If you find me trustworthy, you can take my word for it. There was an official ruling on this.

You can treat it as a functional errata, something along the lines of:

"R: After any number of your opponent's cards are removed from the game, your opponent loses 2 vitality."

ARMed_PIrate said:

If anyone was around to stamp or contradict that, it'd help me, otherwise that's what I'm going with.

Pirate's right, the ability was just misworded and should be played as "after any number of your opponent's cards are removed from the game" meaning it doen't matter who does the removing. It's just awaiting an official errata, but the ruling has been made and stamped here by Arbiters previously.

Stamps Ahoy for Pirate & M.

ok new variant of a question for zhao.... her r:... its awesome and everything but can i react to my opponent mulliganing their hand? I ask cause i don't know when effects can start being played.

I wouldn't imagine so. If I remember correctly abilities don't work at the beginning of the game, as why I couldn't pitch and draw with Promo Alba back in the day if I went second.

B-Rad said:

ummm i don't know what this has to do with anything.... on your turn you could always pitch and draw if you go second. As to why you couldn't do it on your opponents turn if thats the point you are making its because alba said "During either players Ready Phase,..." and starting player skips their ready phase.

my point is when does the game start?

the rules don't define a point where the game starts. You are only allowed to mulligan after you decide turn order then draw up to hand size. Seeing as how drawing and muliganing are game mechanics i would say that the game has started once the hands are drawn. Also in tournament play you may not draw up to your hand size before time is started but all other previous steps such as shuffling cutting and turn order can all be done before the start of the time.

from all this i want to say that the option of mulliganing is within the start of the game so zhao should be able to react if your opponent mulligans.

Abilities may not be played until the first player's first turn begins. Anything before that requires "golden rule" trickery (e.g. Taki5).

Tag i don't mean to sound like a **** or anything but i already know that you can't play ability's untill the first turn starts. My question is what is the exact point in which the game begins? Cause according to the rules there is no specific moment that defines the game beggining. The rules only state that the first turn player is to skip their ready phase (which include the ready, review and draw steps) then draw up to their hand size at which point players have an option to mulligan. I believe that once you have an option to affect the status of the game (such as drawing cards or removing cards from the game) the game has started. As far as i can see Mulliganing is an IN-GAME mechanic that only shows up once per game at the begining. Thus i think zhao should be able to react off of it.

How about this as an attempt to logic through this:

5.2 The player that is chosen to start the game commits his character. This player will skip the Ready Phase
during his first turn. (See 7.0 The Ready Phase.)

This suggests, through the language, that the 'start' of the game happens after the first player skips his Ready Phase, which begins the first turn. Continuing this thought:

2.9.3.3 Responses can be played by either player during either player’s turn.

And defining the action in question, up to where relevant:

5.4 After drawing their hands, players may decide to take what is called a mulligan. The player who will be
taking the first turn has the opportunity to take a mulligan first. Then the player who will take the second
turn has the opportunity to mulligan.[snip]

Take particular note of the future tense used in this rule. It suggest that mulligan happens before the first turn of the game begins.

So the logic is as follows:

1. Abilities may be used by cards in the staging area.
2. ZD has a R, and, assuming 2nd turn start, is ready in the staging area.
3. The game starts (ie the first turn happens) as the first player skips their Ready Step.
4. Mulligan rules use the future tense ("player who will be taking the first turn") when referencing when players mulligan.
5. R abilities may only be used during player's turns.

I posit that: Mulligans happen before the game starts, before the first player's first turn.

It is shown that: Response abilities may only be used during player's turns.

Therefore : ZD cannot use her R during a mulligan, as it is not during a player turn.

Does that follow known logic? If it does, I think it clears the issue, without needing extra in the AGR.

-Tinman

The game begins as soon as who is going first has been determined.

However vitality isn't set (5.5) until after both players have drawn up and decided wether or not to mulligan (5.4). So even if she could use it, it wouldn't matter.

Tinman gets a hug and a stamp.

Best answer on something I've seen in a while.

*cough* I think my previous answer may be wrong (as would Tinman's as well):

Except those Golden Rule past 2.9.3.3. They do not violate the logic I presented, as they specifically allow for being played before the first turn.

Tinman said:

**stamp**