To further elaborate on my original post, as someone who already owns six "classic" T-65 X-wings, the thought of getting four T-70s to use in a force holds no interest. For me the T-65 is a good ship which I enjoy taking. If I want something different, I have A, B, E, K, Y-wings to scratch that itch. The T-70 just doesn't bring anything new to the table for me. I'll buy one eventually to complete the collection, but that's it.

Thanks for the write-up!

Personally, I think 4 x T-65 w/ Integrated Astromech for 88 points is the better deal. You get the same firepower and potentially more durability with Integrated if it sheds a Major Explosion or Direct Hit. Not to mention you have 12 points leftover to pump one of those Rookies to something like Wedge with PTL and BB8 (albeit without an init bid).

There's a slight trade-off in maneuverability as you lose the Talon Roll and boost. But as you mentioned, a low-PS boost is limited in effectiveness in the first place and isn't worth 3 points per ship in my opinion.

To be fair, the 3 points buys you a shield, Boost, and Talon Roll, not just Boost. That being said, I agree that 4x T65 (Squad 260?) is awfully interesting as well.

So why haven't we really discussed this squad? Is it too boring? Does it have some great weakness that I'm missing? Is it because it's not legal until Wave 8?

I suspect part of it is that the list won't be legal until we see Wave 8, which could still be Q4 next year but more likely arrives Q1 of next year... and part of it is because the board has yet to accept that Integrated Astromech actually represents an attempt at a fix for the X-wing(s).

I guess it feels like when new stuff is spoiled, there's lots of theorizing that usually goes on, and I feel like I haven't seen it for the T70. I think of all the talk of new builds that accompanied the news of the Raider and the TIEx1 title.

not excited

the generic T-70 is incredibly uninspiring (well, Red VET has ept; will be money with crackshot if targeting astro is good) and inefficient. I can't see much reason to taking 4 of them over 3 rookies and a PTL+ bb-8 wedge, for example.

I don't understand the uninspiring description. It's a fast, tough, hard hitting fighter for 25 points. I don't think we've seen a ship with this combination of slow moves + fast moves, with Boost, solid attacking power, and 7 freaking hit points.

The other part that's probably deflating this specific combo is the sticker shock. It requires four T-70 expansion packs, along with four Y-Wing expansions for the R2 Astromechs. If you already have a TFA starter, then that's one T-70 that can only see the table in Epic play. Four Rebel Y-Wings is also something that won't see much usage, even with TLTs.

I can see that, but again I'm reminded of the Raider, which had a similar sticker shock to run 4x medium fighters for the Imperials. The way I look at it is 4xT70 packs lets me run both 4xT70s and 4xT65s. I will also admit to being completely blindsided by the T70s in action in the new trailer, but the list was already intriguing to me.

4 R2s is more of an issue, perhaps, because it's difficult to justify additional Y-wings for just that card. Maybe Targeting Astromech will mitigate this issue by providing amother cheap alternative.

I'm excited because the rebel players are.

My Obsidian Squadron will be back on the table to test them.

Finally we come back to X-Wings vs. Tie Fighters

I'm excited because the rebel players are.

My Obsidian Squadron will be back on the table to test them.

Finally we come back to X-Wings vs. Tie Fighters

They NEVER went away... here at Boss Central!

HEL-NAH!!!

I would be excited if I didn't have to buy 4 T-70 expension to do it.... But until they release Integrated Astromech with another ship/pack, I'll just proxy it once in a casual night to at least try it.

I would be excited if I didn't have to buy 4 T-70 expension to do it.... But until they release Integrated Astromech with another ship/pack, I'll just proxy it once in a casual night to at least try it.

Thats that thing that grinds my gears.

Why isn't this ****ing card in the new core set???

Its not that I don't have the money to buy 4 x T-70 expansions ... It is the fact that I need own at least 5 T-70 (because you need the new core set) to fly 4 of them, or 4 of the old X-Wings. So, why isn't this card in the core set? Yeah to make us to buy 4 T-70 Expansions instead of 3. Its so obvious that it angers me.

Or they could have included 2 IA in each expension, like they did with Autothusters and some other upgrade card. But nope, they had to include yet another Advance Proton Torpedoes, because we all need more of those instead of IA!

not excited

the generic T-70 is incredibly uninspiring (well, Red VET has ept; will be money with crackshot if targeting astro is good) and inefficient. I can't see much reason to taking 4 of them over 3 rookies and a PTL+ bb-8 wedge, for example.

I don't understand the uninspiring description. It's a fast, tough, hard hitting fighter for 25 points. I don't think we've seen a ship with this combination of slow moves + fast moves, with Boost, solid attacking power, and 7 freaking hit points.

un

modified

dice

they can and will **** on your parade

the T-70 is fast and very fun to fly, but it most certainly is not tough nor is it particularly hard hitting (it's the same as ever other 3 die ship); especially not for the points paid.

Or they could have included 2 IA in each expension, like they did with Autothusters and some other upgrade card. But nope, they had to include yet another Advance Proton Torpedoes, because we all need more of those instead of IA!

This would have been an option.

I would trade 5 Advance Proton Torpedoes for one IA upgrade. Would you agree to this little trade, FFG? Would you? Would you send me 1 IA back if I would send you 5 APT? Its a fair trade, don't you think?

B-wings; simple, tough, fire just as nasty and they can all Barrell Roll

deleted.

Or they could have included 2 IA in each expension, like they did with Autothusters and some other upgrade card. But nope, they had to include yet another Advance Proton Torpedoes, because we all need more of those instead of IA!

I honestly think that 2 x Integrated Astromech cards would not be unreasonable.

2 x Autothrusters, 2 x Extra Munitions, 2 x Twin Ion Engine Mk2... it's not as though it hasn't been done before.

WE GET IT... NOW STOP BANGING THAT BLOODY DRUM

I really dislike animated GIFs. I especially dislike animated GIFs when they're getting in the way of someone's actual point, which is about 90% of the time. And this particular animated GIF also gave me motion sickness in the twenty or thirty seconds it took me to adblock it.

I'm really close to blocking your posts just so I don't have to see any more "clever" images, and that would be a shame because otherwise your comments are often relevant and interesting. So stop posting the GIFs, please?

THIS IS AN INTERVENTION

un

modified

dice

they can and will **** on your parade

WE GET IT... NOW STOP BANGING THAT BLOODY DRUM

seriously?

clarification was asked for and given

this post, however, was neither asked for nor the least bit necessary

honestly, you'd think you'd learn something after the last temp ban

I don't really understand your aversion to green dice in this particular context. On a TIE Interceptor, sure, it can't afford to take any hits. The T70 with IA has 7 hit points, though, more if you end up blocking a nasty crit. It's 2 green dice are not relied upon, they're more of a bonus against massed attacks. The defensive profile of the ship allows you to get lucky without massively punishing you for being unlucky.

Or they could have included 2 IA in each expension, like they did with Autothusters and some other upgrade card. But nope, they had to include yet another Advance Proton Torpedoes, because we all need more of those instead of IA!

I honestly think that 2 x Integrated Astromech cards would not be unreasonable.

2 x Autothrusters, 2 x Extra Munitions, 2 x Twin Ion Engine Mk2... it's not as though it hasn't been done before.

Yeah but those doubles all came in $20 blisters. Agreed though that IA really should have been in new core if possible or come out in Rebel Aces 2 soon.

four T-65s with IA and R2 Astromechs, plus a Bandit.

I'm actually really looking forward to BBXXZ, and I don't normally fly generic pilots too much. As as added bonus, only two T-70 packs required!

Came to this thread to post the same thing. I will definitely be trying out BBXXZ soon. Also intrigued by 2 Blue Squad B-wings (can't they find a new color) and T-70 Red Vets (Seriously, there are other colors!) with crack shot.

I'm really close to blocking your posts just so I don't have to see any more "clever" images, and that would be a shame because otherwise your comments are often relevant and interesting. So stop posting the GIFs, please?

As a favour to a fellow poster I have a lot of respect for, I'll remove the monkey and will attempt to tone the GIF use down.

I can't promise anything, though.

seriously?

Yes, seriously. The monkey is gone, but the sentiment still stands. You post about your dislike for green dice almost as often as I post GIFs. This is not new information, and neither is it interesting or indeed accurate information, just your point of view, and certainly not one which should be used to influence other people's usage of particular lists or ships.

Now - as I've agreed to tone down my gif usage as per Vorpal's request, maybe you'll be inclined to tone down the dice bleating. It too gets very old, very quickly.

I don't really understand your aversion to green dice in this particular context. On a TIE Interceptor, sure, it can't afford to take any hits. The T70 with IA has 7 hit points, though, more if you end up blocking a nasty crit. It's 2 green dice are not relied upon, they're more of a bonus against massed attacks. The defensive profile of the ship allows you to get lucky without massively punishing you for being unlucky.

Right. T-70 + IA is a big step up from the B-wing in durability. Next to the Firespray, Aggressor, and TIE Defender, it's has the best defensive profile in the game: enough hit points to soak some damage, with enough Agility that you can afford to be patient and wait for regression to the mean.

EDIT: But see below.

Back on topic: I absolutely love flying XXXX lists. In fact, my second best competitive showing came with a four 'ecks list, and for all it's shortcomings (mostly movement ability) it just "feels" like the kind of list you want to be able to fly well and do well with.

This was a pre-Wave 5 event, mind you. The list was

Wedge Antilles - Swarm Tactics

Biggs Darklighter - R7 Astromech

Rookie Pilot

Rookie Pilot

So, top ace, ablative ace, two mooks (and a friendly PS9 boost to try and take down a ship before it can shoot back). The R7 ended up being worse than useless (I think every time Biggs used it he got the same or a worse result) , but it still went 4-2 on the day (albeit with some very close run matches).

I'd like to think that the T70's arrival (and Integrated Astromech) could help refresh the build and add a bit more flexibility, but where to go and what to do? Biggs is the lynchpin of the list, keeping the top ace alive long enough to do the damage. But two aces probably rules out more than one T70. You could switch out Wedge for Poe with BB8, but other than that you'd probably be looking at going back down the PS order...

Red Squadron Veteran - R2 Astromech, Integrated Astromech x 2

Red Squadron Pilot x 2

Is the PS boost worth the 4 less hull? It might help versus low PS Swarms and Predator, but probably not overall...

I don't really understand your aversion to green dice in this particular context. On a TIE Interceptor, sure, it can't afford to take any hits. The T70 with IA has 7 hit points, though, more if you end up blocking a nasty crit. It's 2 green dice are not relied upon, they're more of a bonus against massed attacks. The defensive profile of the ship allows you to get lucky without massively punishing you for being unlucky.

Right. T-70 + IA is a big step up from the B-wing in durability. Next to the Firespray, Aggressor, and TIE Defender, it's has the best defensive profile in the game: enough hit points to soak some damage, with enough Agility that you can afford to be patient and wait for regression to the mean.

Yes! And it's got a price point that lets you take 4 of them! The ability to be patient is something that I think will be useful. It's something I like about the Defender as well. It's got the hit points to let you get unlucky with your dice. That lets you make moves with some degree of certainty, letting things unfold in a couple of turns in ways that more dynamic, but more fragile ships cannot. There's no hard counter to this defensive profile. Massed 2-dice shots will be slowed by 2 green dice compared to a B-wing's 1 die. 2 AGI also mitigates some damage from a 4-hit HLC type of shot, on average, and it's got the hit points that a non-average roll isn't the end of it. Gunner-type effects hate this defensive profile, because the T70 owner isn't going to need to spend tokens to block damage from the first attack, but the T70 will still block some damage more often than not.

A basic example: Against high AGI, high firepower, high PS opposition, a more fragile, arc-dogdy sort of ship needs to take defensive tokens because it has to avoid all hits. The T70 can take a Target Lock to save for later rounds when quality shots present themselves or when a K-turn or Talon Roll would be particularly advantageous against the opposition.

This combination of speed and durability for the price is really unprecedented as well. Interceptors and A-wings are faster, but either much more fragile or with much worse offense. Large ships with Boost usually weigh in at around twice the price or more. You can spread them across your deployment zone, and by turn 2 consolidate their fire almost anywhere on the board. Spreading them out sort of buys you time as well. Reactive movement actions are most effective when ships are close and the main threat is coming from a single direction. A bunch of T70s spread out, but converging will be difficult to dodge, and the odd boost and barrel roll aren't going to help an Arc Dodger as much when there's a pack of T70's running them to the ground.

Defensive profile on its own means very little. The defender, for example, has a SEXY statline but you pay far too many points for the total package

The t70 may be in a better place efficiency-wise? (Need to see the math again) but it definetly came out worse than the rookie ito efficiency of its PS 2s

In a vacuum, well the t70 is no tie fighter. That does not mean it isn't frighteningly easy to kill, however, Relative to the weaponry it will be going up against (especially versus higher PS)

I do have to say, however, that the utility of the low PS boost is very underappreciated. Low PS boost is amazing for obstacle navigation and, most of all, blocking the angry crap out of people.

I doubt it will be enough to overcome the lack of flexibility present in a jousting list that is inefficient at jousting, though.

And that's the jist of it. The novice pilot isn't really great for the points invested. It is neither particularly tough nor particularly scary.

Which is obviously not to imply low PS spam doesn't work in the face of its tournament successes, but if you're gambling on lightly or unmodified, it makes sense to bring more dice so eventually something gets through.

I just don't think they will last given

the alternatives of bbbbz or 5 special-Ks

Which is why I am personally not excited about 4 t70s. I am excited for IA on vanilla Xs, the potential for targeting astro on red vets with crackshot, and Poet giving the t-70s profile the kick it needs to actually weather a mild storm

I've used generic T-70s a little and have been kind of underwhelmed. They do good work and they're fun but they crumple far too easily, even with Autothrusters. Even Red Veterans with, what did I have...Wired? I think? Wired, ATs, R2 Astros on a pair of Red Vets? Not bad but not great. Very finnicky to fly.

I think Blue Novices with R2s and IA might be all right; a pair could be flown as very effective blockers, and I'd be more than happy to take them against a pair of Blue Bs with systems. I think a pair of Blue Novices and a pair of Blue Bs could be a pretty solid squad (and with your choice of FCS, AS, or AccC on the B-Wings you've got some good ways to adjust your squad to your play style).

I just don't think they will last given

the alternatives of bbbbz or 5 special-Ks

Which is why I am personally not excited about 4 t70s. I am excited for IA on vanilla Xs, the potential for targeting astro on red vets with crackshot, and Poet giving the t-70s profile the kick it needs to actually weather a mild storm

For how I think of things (your mileage may vary), 4 T70s is hands down better than BBBBZ. It's missing the blocker, which stinks, but the speed and the ability to respond to situations over the course of several turns is worlds ahead. You lose the blocker, but you gain more defense on your big guns and are massively more maneuverable (and I say this as a lover of Barrel Rolls). T70s can chase and block fast ships so much better than B-wings can. They can converge or split up in ways that B-wings can't even dream of.

The 5K comparison more interesting to think about. You've got 3 more hit points with T70s than Ks, but the extra ship and 3-dice attack is pretty meaningful. Special K's aren't as slow as Bs, but the T70s still have a pretty large maneuverability advantage over them. They can go both slower and faster, but are missing the 1-turn, which is pretty great.

I'll agree that the biggest argument against 4 T70s is 3 T70s. You can do a lot of escellent stuff with Poe and Aces/Veterans, and you won't need as many Integrated Astromechs to do it.

Just to explore this further, I wonder if X270 (2 T70s and 2 T65s, yeah, I'm trying to start a nomenclature here) is a nice middle-of-the-road option, both financially and points-wise. You could get 2 T70 packs and put IA on the T65s while you put Autothrusters (assuming you have them) on the T70s.

Rookie Pilot, R3-A2, IA = 23

Rookie Pilot, R4-D6, IA = 22

Blue Squadron Novice, R2 Astromech, Autothrusters = 27

Blue Squadron Novice, R2 Astromech, Autothrusters = 27

You've got a point left to upgrade an R2 or R4-D6 to something else. You gain a little bit of control, and you get Autothrusters. I don't know. I think I like the 4 Novices better still. It doesn't free up enough points to get a meaningful ace if you're putting Autothrusters on the Novices.

Next to the Firespray, Aggressor, and TIE Defender, it's has the best defensive profile in the game: enough hit points to soak some damage, with enough Agility that you can afford to be patient and wait for regression to the mean.

...okay, that was hyperbolic. Ships ahead of the T-70 in terms of durability include the Aggressor, the YT-2400 and Firespray, the Decimator, the TIE Defender, the Lambda and Outer Rim Smuggler, and (depending on how you count the extra hit point from IA) the TIE Advanced.

It's my favorite defensive profile, though. I don't like the "death clock" feeling of being stuck on 0-1 Agility, and the T-70 has enough hit points to really tank even if (that is, when) the green dice fail.

Personally, I feel more Death clock on less health 2 agi. You get to the point of no return real **** quick, and without an evade the dice will rarely save you anyway.