I don't think every out of towner is a hawk among chickens either. Mediocre players travel too.

Mediocre players travel, sure. But what I'm getting at is that every good player has a home store, and traveling (especially for Store Championships) is a good way to find those men and women defending, so to speak, their home field.

However we're talking about 'prize snipers' who are presumably traveling with the explicit intention of finding weak competition.

You're talking about people who travel looking for weak groups to stomp, but I'm talking about the fact that it's silly to assume you'll find any.

I'm the absence of any official ranking system competitive success at larger event is really the only way to define these players. Or at least the ones anyone cares about. If you're bad and traveling hoping to win prizes, nobody cares.

Again, this is the problematic assumption I'm talking about. Everything you've said here reinforces the idea that if someone who has been successful at a regional or national level travels to a sanctioned tournament, he or she is going to find an environment full of weak players with little to no tournament experience. And while I'm certain there are a few places like that, there can't be many, and I doubt anyone looking for them is going to be successful.

I traveled to McPherson, KS last weekend (pop 13,155) for a friendly tournament, and recognized several strong players from this year's Tulsa regionals and from GenCon. It was the home store for a couple of them, and a couple more were up from Wichita for the day. I wasn't expecting to find an easy set of games, which is good because I didn't find any.

Again, this is the problematic assumption I'm talking about.

It's the same problematic assumption inherent in every one of these discussions. That somehow small stores in remote areas are filled with inherently weaker players then the big stores in large towns.

It's complete and utter nonsense, and should be treated as such.

Oh boy hear we go again... The last kind of post like this ended up with like 700 replies...

Page 6 and counting

gogogo

Well, I suspect the practicality of it varies greatly depending on the skill of the guy who is doing it. Maybe it isn't a real problem on a practical level. More people being xenophobes and confirmation bias than anything. Still, have you participated in tournaments with different divisions? Haven't seen one for x-wing yet, but it does make for a more fun experience for lower ranked people.

No, what I'm saying if you're a guy who is winning large events traveling to small events that are out of your region isn't a particularly nice thing to do.

"Winning too much isn't nice, so I handicap myself with deflated balls." -Tom Brady

"I try to let everyone win an equal amount because me winning all the time is boring" -LeBron James

"******* prize snipers" -The Cubs

True competitors play hard any time they play, even if they always lose. They're in it for great matches and any rewards they can manage. They want you to play them tough. An easy win is a boring win.

Store Championships are official area events. They will draw out competitors. Matches will be tough.

Seasonal OP kits are used in leagues or tournaments that need a certain threshold of attendance for prizes to be awarded. You still need to win to receive a prize.

If you're crying because it's too hard for you to win prizes, you need to practice more, read more, watch more, and suck it up princess. There is no participation trophy - there are winners and losers.

Oh boy hear we go again... The last kind of post like this ended up with like 700 replies...

Page 6 and counting

gogogo

You're not helpingggggg!!

(neither am I )

I don't see how prize sniping is even a thing. A good player shows up at an event, wins over the competition, and claims the prize. What's the big deal?

It's their fault other players don't get in on the prizes?

I don't see how prize sniping is even a thing. A good player shows up at an event, wins over the competition, and claims the prize. What's the big deal?

It's their fault other players don't get in on the prizes?

That seems to be the contention, yes.

Well, I suspect the practicality of it varies greatly depending on the skill of the guy who is doing it. Maybe it isn't a real problem on a practical level. More people being xenophobes and confirmation bias than anything. Still, have you participated in tournaments with different divisions? Haven't seen one for x-wing yet, but it does make for a more fun experience for lower ranked people.

I understand this impulse, I really do. I like to win, and I don't particularly like to lose, and a big part of growing up for me was (and is) learning how to do both with grace.

But the endpoint of your reasoning, here, is that only people who are worse players than I am should be allowed to play against me. And that's just not how the competitive world functions: if you decide to participate in a sanctioned tournament (and I'm not at all suggesting that everyone should!), then you're agreeing to compete against whoever shows up. Complaining that it's not a fair matchup because your opponent is too good is... not part of the deal.

But the endpoint of your reasoning, here, is that only people who are worse players than I am should be allowed to play against me. And that's just not how the competitive world functions: if you decide to participate in a sanctioned tournament (and I'm not at all suggesting that everyone should!), then you're agreeing to compete against whoever shows up. Complaining that it's not a fair matchup because your opponent is too good is... not part of the deal.

Yah, but this isn't the real world. Its a game and the point is to have fun. If having divisions would be more fun to more people what's the harm? I guess that more a philosophical question on what you think the purpose of a tournament is. Having fun, or determining a winner? I'd probably say the purpose is different based on the level of the tournament.

This could go round and round forever though.

Why is it so hard for you to understand, for some people, playing new people is part of the fun of game. I love traveling to play, and am sad that I am unable to do it as often as I want to.

Well, I suspect the practicality of it varies greatly depending on the skill of the guy who is doing it. Maybe it isn't a real problem on a practical level. More people being xenophobes and confirmation bias than anything. Still, have you participated in tournaments with different divisions? Haven't seen one for x-wing yet, but it does make for a more fun experience for lower ranked people.

The FA Cup. One of the greatest knockout competitions in the world, for over 100 years.

A team from two divisions lower than Chelsea beats them on their own turf. Sure looks like the Bradford City players were having fun and enjoying their day... doesn't it?

But the endpoint of your reasoning, here, is that only people who are worse players than I am should be allowed to play against me. And that's just not how the competitive world functions: if you decide to participate in a sanctioned tournament (and I'm not at all suggesting that everyone should!), then you're agreeing to compete against whoever shows up. Complaining that it's not a fair matchup because your opponent is too good is... not part of the deal.

Yah, but this isn't the real world. Its a game and the point is to have fun. If having divisions would be more fun to more people what's the harm? I guess that more a philosophical question on what you think the purpose of a tournament is. Having fun, or determining a winner? I'd probably say the purpose is different based on the level of the tournament.

This could go round and round forever though.

Trying to keep people out of a tournament because they don't live in the area and/or are too good leads to less people having fun since fewer people are playing.

*There's a rather large logical problem here to me to argue that we're just playing the game to have fun and determining a winner is not important, then posing a reason or system where some tournaments are (or should be) exclusive so that locals have a better chance to win prizes at certain tournaments because they'll have more fun if they have a better chance to win.

The only reason I can see to exclude someone from an event, for whatever reason, is because that group doesn't think they can compete fairly outside their social circle.*

If someone wants to host a tournament and provide prize support themselves, then they can do whatever they want. But as soon as you start talking about the Competitive X-Wing season starting with the Store Championship, then you no longer have any right to say who can or can't show up.

*That doesn't mean they're bad, they may use house rules or simply all be new at the game, and not quite up to the same level as other groups.

I travel a lot just for casual games. My closest store is an hour from me and there are four total within a 2 hour drive. Because of the seclusion of the town I currently call home, I generally expand my radius to play at stores that are expected to have big turnouts for their tournaments because I enjoy playing new people. I genuinely feel loyalty to the groups closest to me, but more importantly, I am loyal to the game itself and the community as a whole. Tournaments are a great way for shops to gain revenue and strengthen the community as a whole by reinforcing the fact that there is a desire to play this game. I'm able to count myself lucky that I have had this and other gaming groups because a quick check of the organized play forum will show you that there are still players who either don't know where their closest group is due to lack of visibility/advertising or they may not have a close group at all. The real prize that I am sniping is competing against new friendly faces.

I'm going to travel to as many store championships as I can. I want to test my skills against as many different players and lists as I can. And if a store posts a particularly good prize pool for a non-FFG kit event I'm going to try and travel to that event too. This whole motion of prize sniping is rubbish. If you have a regular x-wing group at your local store are you trying to tell me none of you can even get to the top 4 because all the 'pros' travel to your store and win your prizes? I call BS.

Also, if you want the loot that bad there is always EBay.

Someone please find some leaked pictures of FFG products and post them in this thread so it gets deleted.

But the endpoint of your reasoning, here, is that only people who are worse players than I am should be allowed to play against me. And that's just not how the competitive world functions: if you decide to participate in a sanctioned tournament (and I'm not at all suggesting that everyone should!), then you're agreeing to compete against whoever shows up. Complaining that it's not a fair matchup because your opponent is too good is... not part of the deal.

Yah, but this isn't the real world. Its a game and the point is to have fun. If having divisions would be more fun to more people what's the harm? I guess that more a philosophical question on what you think the purpose of a tournament is. Having fun, or determining a winner? I'd probably say the purpose is different based on the level of the tournament.

This could go round and round forever though.

I've fought in martial arts tournaments with divisions by rank/skill. (I've also fought in those without, which was... interesting.) But there are some major difference between that and X-wing: there's intentional randomness in X-wing due to dice, and I think there's also a narrower range of available skill levels. That is, the difference between the best X-wing player in the world and the median player is a lot smaller than the same difference in karate.

I also don't think the X-wing community is large enough to support multiple divisions. I think the next Regionals season will see a lot of tourney with 60-80 players, but I don't think introducing divisions would draw a lot of extra people--and I'm also not sure how many people would self-select into the weaker division (or what other mechanism you could use in X-wing other than self-selection). There just seem to be a lot of hurdles to get over in order to make it work, without a lot of people asking for it.

Trying to keep people out of a tournament because they don't live in the area and/or are too good leads to less people having fun since fewer people are playing.

*There's a rather large logical problem here to me to argue that we're just playing the game to have fun and determining a winner is not important, then posing a reason or system where some tournaments are (or should be) exclusive so that locals have a better chance to win prizes at certain tournaments because they'll have more fun if they have a better chance to win.

Well if 3-4 of someone's opponent don't have a good time because they showed up, that's less people having fun.

I've never said its about the prizes though. I'd do tournaments with zero prizes.

I've fought in martial arts tournaments with divisions by rank/skill. (I've also fought in those without, which was... interesting.) But there are some major difference between that and X-wing: there's intentional randomness in X-wing due to dice, and I think there's also a narrower range of available skill levels. That is, the difference between the best X-wing player in the world and the median player is a lot smaller than the same difference in karate.

I also don't think the X-wing community is large enough to support multiple divisions. I think the next Regionals season will see a lot of tourney with 60-80 players, but I don't think introducing divisions would draw a lot of extra people--and I'm also not sure how many people would self-select into the weaker division (or what other mechanism you could use in X-wing other than self-selection). There just seem to be a lot of hurdles to get over in order to make it work, without a lot of people asking for it.

Probably true on both accounts. Especially the number of players. That's always the toughie when you start doing divisions. I know some of the CCGs have much more developed ranking and divisions for things like invitational tournaments etc. They probably have orders of magnitude more players though.

I do know plenty of people that don't like tournaments as-is though. Most of them aren't very good players and though they'd never admit it, they probably avoid it because they know losing is a forgone conclusion. Some sort of lower pressure events might get them out. I have other buddies who will do store tournaments, but won't enter at GenCon. They know they'll lose at that level and would rather not spend half a day getting beaten when they could be doing something else. Couldn't tell you if there are enough of these people to make up a division. At least x-wing isn't single elimination.

They know they'll lose at that level and would rather not spend half a day getting beaten when they could be doing something else.

What about spending that same half a day getting better at the game because they're playing against skilled opponents?

They know they'll lose at that level and would rather not spend half a day getting beaten when they could be doing something else.

What about spending that same half a day getting better at the game because they're playing against skilled opponents?

No, no, you're missing the obvious defeatist attitude... why would you ever want to play someone at X-Wing if there's the tiniest possibility you might lose?

"Seal Clubbing" is not something that can happen at tourneys. Seal Clubbing is used to refer to a specific predatory behavior in casual games.

Seal Clubbing occurs when somebody deliberately brings a Tier-1 list against someone they know is just a novice and then exults in their every victory and liberally trash talks their opponent.

That's a fairly specific behavior, and the nature of tournaments makes it impossible since a) A TO should be on hand to tell the jerk to shut up or get out, and b) Tournaments are intrinsically competitive events that demand the best of the players involved.

Trying to keep people out of a tournament because they don't live in the area and/or are too good leads to less people having fun since fewer people are playing. *There's a rather large logical problem here to me to argue that we're just playing the game to have fun and determining a winner is not important, then posing a reason or system where some tournaments are (or should be) exclusive so that locals have a better chance to win prizes at certain tournaments because they'll have more fun if they have a better chance to win.

Well if 3-4 of someone's opponent don't have a good time because they showed up, that's less people having fun. ;)I've never said its about the prizes though. I'd do tournaments with zero prizes.

Ok, so the problem you're talking about isn't necessarily exclusive to nor related to the distance people are traveling to play x-wing. A local ace who is also a jerk would cause the same problem. If he's not a jerk and just beats them and they don't like it and are frankly, too stubborn to try and learn from their losses, then those 4-8 or even more players of the same skill should set up a time on their own to play and not have unrealistic expectations of exclusivity at a tournament.