Somewhere I found a term "Muscle Wizard" and I thought, why not?

http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=07880273942455015725

I am Open to suggestions

okay my anti-virus software just went up to look at that sight

okay my anti-virus software just went up to look at that sight

Mine too.

Might want to rehost that thing, OP.

Anyway, as a concept (not having checked out the PDF), it sounds silly.

In addition:

The Muscle Wizard concept can work in D&D, where you are fairly durable, healing is abundant, and you can become superhumanly mighty, in addition to most weapons being melee-range.

In DH, combat is much more lethal, healing is far less available, unarmed damage is fairly low, and firearms with heavy damage potential (outclassing unarmed combat by many times in both range and damage potential) proliferate. In addition, there's already career paths focused toward being a melee powerhouse (with an actual sword, or similar, though).

I understand how muscle wizard is depicted in D&D. I tried to create something similar but with Warhammer flavour - it is a mix from "Cult of the Pure Form" - purity of flesh, "Gunslinger" - nothing beats fists, "Templar Calix" - psyker with martial art, "cleric" - faith in the emperor, "noble" - a bit gentelman .

If you could look into pdf, it would be nice.

The rank is not finished.

I would be willing to look at the pdf if my anti-virus software didn't light up when I went to look at the site

I tried to create something similar but with Warhammer flavour - it is a mix from "Cult of the Pure Form" - purity of flesh, "Gunslinger" - nothing beats fists, "Templar Calix" - psyker with martial art, "cleric" - faith in the emperor, "noble" - a bit gentelman .

If you could look into pdf, it would be nice.

The rank is not finished.

Well, the problem is that guns, in general, beat melee weapons. With good mobility and decent endurance, you can get into melee range, and you can certainly fight effectively there. With a melee weapon.

The problem with fighting unarmed is that unarmed attacks are absurdly weak ,(1d5-3 + SB, meaning the average character will deal like 3 damage on average, which literally anyone can soak with minimal or no damage, even without double AP value because Unarmed) and wielding practically any melee weapon will make your damage capability go up significantly. The only saving grace of it is that it causes Fatigue, and that's only one point of Fatigue per hit.

The average character will hit maybe one in three times (with ~30 WS), and it takes four points of fatigue to knock someone out (assuming ~30 Toughness and 3TB). That's 6 turns, on average. In those six turns, you will likely be eviscerated by any enemy with a good melee weapon. Even a basic sword deals 1d10+SB, and a chainsword gets 1d10+2+SB with Pen 2.

The sword deals (once again assuming ~30 Strength) 6.5 damage on average, and let's say it hits as many times as you do with your fists. You have no armour on (because that's totally the kind of thing a gentlemanly boxer would do), but your Toughness is 36. You soak up 3 points of damage. In three turns (and two successful hits from the sword guy and you respectively), and assuming you dodge one in three times, you will take either 3-4 or 6-8 damage. For dealing between one and two points of Fatigue, depending on whether he dodges or not. This doesn't even take into account the 1-in-10 chance of Righteous Fury.

And that's just a bog-standard sword, which costs less than a set of writing tools and paper.

The chainsword deals 7.5 damage on average, has 2 penetration, and has Tearing to boot (meaning you roll an extra d10 for damage and drop the lower one).

In addition, you can't Parry without a drawn melee weapon, leaving you to rely on Dodging to avoid damage.

I would be willing to look at the pdf if my anti-virus software didn't light up when I went to look at the site

OK, I emailed you already.

I tried to create something similar but with Warhammer flavour - it is a mix from "Cult of the Pure Form" - purity of flesh, "Gunslinger" - nothing beats fists, "Templar Calix" - psyker with martial art, "cleric" - faith in the emperor, "noble" - a bit gentelman .

If you could look into pdf, it would be nice.

The rank is not finished.

Well, the problem is that guns, in general, beat melee weapons. With good mobility and decent endurance, you can get into melee range, and you can certainly fight effectively there. With a melee weapon.

The problem with fighting unarmed is that unarmed attacks are absurdly weak ,(1d5-3 + SB, meaning the average character will deal like 3 damage on average, which literally anyone can soak with minimal or no damage, even without double AP value because Unarmed) and wielding practically any melee weapon will make your damage capability go up significantly. The only saving grace of it is that it causes Fatigue, and that's only one point of Fatigue per hit.

The average character will hit maybe one in three times (with ~30 WS), and it takes four points of fatigue to knock someone out (assuming ~30 Toughness and 3TB). That's 6 turns, on average. In those six turns, you will likely be eviscerated by any enemy with a good melee weapon. Even a basic sword deals 1d10+SB, and a chainsword gets 1d10+2+SB with Pen 2.

The sword deals (once again assuming ~30 Strength) 6.5 damage on average, and let's say it hits as many times as you do with your fists. You have no armour on (because that's totally the kind of thing a gentlemanly boxer would do), but your Toughness is 36. You soak up 3 points of damage. In three turns (and two successful hits from the sword guy and you respectively), and assuming you dodge one in three times, you will take either 3-4 or 6-8 damage. For dealing between one and two points of Fatigue, depending on whether he dodges or not. This doesn't even take into account the 1-in-10 chance of Righteous Fury.

And that's just a bog-standard sword, which costs less than a set of writing tools and paper.

The chainsword deals 7.5 damage on average, has 2 penetration, and has Tearing to boot (meaning you roll an extra d10 for damage and drop the lower one).

In addition, you can't Parry without a drawn melee weapon, leaving you to rely on Dodging to avoid damage.

Yes, I understand that weapons are better than unarmed fight, but if you would look into rank, you will see, that a a character can get unnatural stregth, toughness, non-primitive unarmed damage, boost in dodge, and a whole new psychic discipline ( with a possibility to become sanctioned)

Lets say a character(psyker) has:

WS: 35

Stregth: 35

Toughness: 35

Agility: 35

WP: 50

Wounds: 10

psy rating 6

---------

with all unnaturals

with Dodge +30 and step aside,

he can double dodge with total Agility 65

he would be with 6 ST bonus, 6 TB

-----

now, from psychic discipline, he can Cast Fist, which makes an attack unavoidable every 1d5 round.

so, what is next? with other powers you can improve damage, make it Fire or Frost or Shock quality, deflect projectiles by punching them, make unarmed strike with high penetration, make a shockwave around by punching ground,

also he can increase his toughness.

also assume he is mastered that discipline, has 2x power well, discipline focus

ok, lets try to calculcate

Cast Fist + Energy Fist (lets choose fire) + improved Fist(+1d5 damage + 1d5 overbleed ) + Penetrating Fist(pen = double st bonus)

we have single unavoidable unarmed attack

1d5-3 + (3 ST * 2 unnatural) + 3d5 =

max 23 damage, with 12 Pen, and an opponent must roll to not catch on fire

min 9 damage, with 12 Pen and an opponent must roll to not catch on fire

and if I am right

average 16 damage, with 12 Pen and an opponent must roll to not catch on fire

That assumes:

A) That all rolls to activate psychic power both succeed, and that you don't trigger Phenomena/Perils (which will happen at some point when your only way to be combat effective is to trigger a half dozen powers before you can do jack **** ).

B) That you have the time to activate a half-dozen psychic powers in combat before you can do anything effective at all. That is at least 3 turns, possibly 4 or more, depending on whether the Powers involved are Half or Full Actions to invoke.

C) That this is not a waste of time, and EXP, compared to just using an actual melee weapon.

This seems like a massive monobuild for a role that can be effectively fulfilled by anyone (assuming they're at least somewhat melee-capable) with a melee weapon, and those guys don't need to spend thousands of EXP to make themselves combat viable at all, and can instead spend it on other skills, talents, or psychic disciplines.

For example, the Templar Calix gets a Force Weapon for taking that rank, and taking that Career requires one starts as a Psyker. Assuming this hypotethical Templar has got the same stats as your hypothetical character, he'd have a sword that does 1d10+7+SB damage, with 6 pen, and whenever a hit connects, he can (as a Free Action) make an Opposed WP Test with his target to channel psychic power through the blade.

If it succeeds, each Degree of Success on that test would add a d10 to his damage roll. And he doesn't need to spend nearly as much XP on specialized psychic powers, in addition to his melee talents/skills/Weapon Skill, to be even remotely combat viable, nor does he need to spend 3-4 turns preparing to do anything, unlike your mad boxer.

A few thoughts, 1 in order for this rank to work it going to take a alot of exp and well at 2nd rank it will be well into the 7+ before you have made this rank work with this set up well. Not that that a bad thing but...

2. Why no Crushing Blow (talent) for that +2 Damage, Swift Attack and Lightning Attacks (For Multi Attacks), or Leap up (for bouncing back up when knocked down)

3. What would be the Cult of Pure Muscle take on the idea of the Companion of Vogel, whose leader, Heydrich Vogel, returned from a century-long expedition into the Koronus Expanse and began preaching a creed of forced genetic and biological augmentation in order to strengthen humanity for the troubles ahead.

and just a point on the Templar Calix

they must help construct or obtain a force weapon of their own

They don't get 1 given to them

The problem isn't with the idea itself, or the build. Well, it is a problem with the build.

It's a massive XP sink monobuild that can be extremely powerful in combat, provided you have the time to spend 3-4 turns bulking up and the blessing of the dice gods to succeed on all the Invocation rolls you need to make yourself combat effective.

And for all that, by the time you have sunk enough XP into that to be effective, you will be around rank 6-7 and can very likely be grabbing things like a power sword, which is easier to use, has decent damage potential (not as high as your dude, granted), and doesn't require you to spend 3-4 turns at the start of every encounter invoking a half dozen psychic powers.

And as a counter-point on the Templar Calix:

Joining the temple and going through training should occasion a period of several months “downtime” for the character between adventures.

During this time they must help construct or obtain a force weapon of their own.

I'm reading this to mean that you don't become a Templar before you have your Force Weapon.

Which, by GM discretion, could either be a mini-scenario for your character, or just a handwave where you return at the start of the next adventure with one of your choice.

A few thoughts, 1 in order for this rank to work it going to take a alot of exp and well at 2nd rank it will be well into the 7+ before you have made this rank work with this set up well. Not that that a bad thing but...

2. Why no Crushing Blow (talent) for that +2 Damage, Swift Attack and Lightning Attacks (For Multi Attacks), or Leap up (for bouncing back up when knocked down)

3. What would be the Cult of Pure Muscle take on the idea of the Companion of Vogel, whose leader, Heydrich Vogel, returned from a century-long expedition into the Koronus Expanse and began preaching a creed of forced genetic and biological augmentation in order to strengthen humanity for the troubles ahead.

and just a point on the Templar Calix

they must help construct or obtain a force weapon of their own

They don't get 1 given to them

2. good idea

also, this character can use melee weapons but only fists and knucklebusters. In addition to this, I wrote that a character must construct such weapon. though - all psychic powers do not stack with melee weapons.

3. Nice!

The problem isn't with the idea itself, or the build. Well, it is a problem with the build.

It's a massive XP sink monobuild that can be extremely powerful in combat, provided you have the time to spend 3-4 turns bulking up and the blessing of the dice gods to succeed on all the Invocation rolls you need to make yourself combat effective.

And for all that, by the time you have sunk enough XP into that to be effective, you will be around rank 6-7 and can very likely be grabbing things like a power sword, which is easier to use, has decent damage potential (not as high as your dude, granted), and doesn't require you to spend 3-4 turns at the start of every encounter invoking a half dozen psychic powers.

And as a counter-point on the Templar Calix:

Joining the temple and going through training should occasion a period of several months “downtime” for the character between adventures.

During this time they must help construct or obtain a force weapon of their own.

I'm reading this to mean that you don't become a Templar before you have your Force Weapon.

Which, by GM discretion, could either be a mini-scenario for your character, or just a handwave where you return at the start of the next adventure with one of your choice.

Maybe, currently this rank is too costly and needs extensive testing and balancing, but still the idea of unarmed fighter is compelling to me.