Hi everyone!

I have just finished an expansion that I call "The Quest".
Jon at Talisman-island has been generous enough to upload it on his website (www.talismanisland.com/expansions.htm).

I actually started with this project before this summer thinking that the warlock's quests were too easy to complete and had too many strange rules (teleport back to warlock's cave when finished etc.). Then the discussions here at FFG started and I got motivated to see it finished - as there were clearly a demand for harder quests.

It differs quite a bit from JC Hendee's Talisman Tasks and the intention was never to compete with this expansion - it was only a matter of parallel development.

Please pay a visit to talisman-island and download the expansion and tell me what you think of it. Suggestions and critique are more than welcome here in this thread.

Boy, that one takes a bit of reading. There are a lot of variations in the package to choose from.

Yes that is correct.

But you don't have to comment the whole expansion at once if you don't feel to. It is OK to give comments of just a part of the expansion.

Most certainly, I just haven't had time yet. I will offer one general consideration, and it's just my preference not necessarily shared by others.

There is too much in the expansion that is dependant upon having, or requiring the use of, other expansions. There are signs here that you designed it dominantly based on what you already have and not on the diversity of what other players may or may not have purchased as yet. I did see options in there for play that didn't require such, but they were really mixed in had to be dug for. These comments are all off the cuff, for as I've said, I haven't had enough time to get into it in detail.

Some of the Quests are good and offer something substantial. The standard quests have always been lame, all the way back to the 2E days when it was purely a roll of a die. Mine tend to me extreme on the other end, expecting a lot of doing (in order words, closer to what a "quest" means... though not in the true sense for those who know). Yours seem to be inbetween these extremes and should generate appeal to the wider community.

Keep in mind that if you look carefully at the commercial expansions they are dominantly independent at their core. There are features and mechanics that CAN interact with other expansions but do not require them. That's a design feature well worth noting, as different players groups may favor one expansion over others, or to the exclusion of all others, playing all or some games with one expansion only as a standard or just as change of pace from one game to the next. it's not just commercially smart, making products independantly desireable, but also allows diversity. Some of you options do take this into consideration, others lean heavily on having a very specific expansion, or requiring more than one. And documentation takes some extra study to figure out which is which. You might want to modularize it a bit more to help us players out.

First of all, thank you for your input. It is much appreciated.

As I've stated in another thread I'm of the belief that interesting synergies can be made if you combine different expansion. But at the same time I'm of the belief that you should not have to have a certain expansion to be able to use a new one. That sounds to me almost like the philosophy you proposed.

I've read through the rules and cards with "expansion dependent glasses on" to see if there are parts that could be changed to a less "expansion dependent" form without changing too much of the original concept. I did indeed find parts that needs to be changed:

I have to admit that the Event Die optional rule was created mainly with the Grim Reaper mechanic in mind (which, of course, comes from the Reaper expansion) - to separate it from the movement mechanic. The Amazon, for instance had a far greater chance of moving the Reaper than others although her character obviously doesn't have more to do with death than any other character have...

At the same time it is possible to use the Event Die without the Grim Reaper and still benefit from it. E.g. if you are the Troll you can use the horse without you have to worry about forgo the chance of regenerating. Perhaps I could have been more clear on this matter in the rules. Do you have any other suggestions in this matter?

In the section "The Crown of Fates" I should perhaps also be more clear that the rules work perfectly without using the Grim Reaper from the Reaper expansion.

In the Quest Cards section I see no problem at all as there are plenty of quests that doesn't require any expansion, and those that do are clearly marked by a icon on the card. But I have found that the Rules Card Quests(1) and Quests(2) take for granted that you have access to Treasure Cards without stating what you should do if you don't, which clearly is not very good design.

Concerning the Memberships there are not much to say. Wouldn't you agree?

The new space instructions cause a bit of a problem. More precisely, the warlock's cave requires you to own and use dungeon cards. I should most certainly change these instructions so that it is less expansion dependant.

In Miscellaneous Collection of House Rules you find
five rules that clearly have a connection to the Reaper or Dungeon expansion. Namely:
Different Treasure 2)
Alternative Trap Doors 4)
Moderated Dark Cultist 10)
Faster Sage 11)
Faster Demigod 15)
Is it better to state that you have to have the relevant expansion or is this obvious without further explanation?

Now to another part of your post...

I cannot agree that your quests are extreme and "expecting a lot of doing" compared to mine. In my opinion they are basically at the same level. Do one thing then quest becomes item/follower then go and claim the reward for example.

Yours tend to be more varied and introduces new creatures, magic objects and other side effects, and mine tend to be more standardized and a lot of effort has been made to avoid any unclear rules or rules disjunctions.

If you find a particular quest strange or too "none-questy" I would like to hear of that.

I would appreciate to hear further input from you and others.

Thanks again.

Hey

I looked at your expansion and, in general, I think its good. Congratulations on providing some great fan support to the community!

The Event Die is an interesting mechanic. I say this because I came up with the exact idea for use with my own expansions but dropped it Why? Well, I felt it was adding another factor to a game which is primarily about simplicity. I think the Reaper mechanic is a good idea but so easily overlooked when played. An Event Die does solve that to an extent AND adds room for additional ideas to work off it.

You could even add a "Critical Symbol" (or even use the Reaper symbol!) which would work in combat, so if you roll a 1 or a 6 AND a Critical on the event die, the attack is auto-win/auto-lose.

But again, that might be yet another level of complexity which takes an otherwise simple game out of itself. I guess ultimately, the more hardcore gamers want Talisman to be Runebound or something

Anyway, just wanted to say that your expansion is good and I'd like to see more stuff from you.

Welcome to the team

Best Regards

Dorian

Hey H.B., I'm here and gave you next post a quite read. Ran out of time this morning and need to get to work. I'll be back with something more subtantial in the next 24 hours.

Thank you for those kind words Dorian. I'm very glad you liked it and I hope to release more expansions in the future.

Haven't thought about using the event die in combat before. It is an interesting thought though.

btw I like your work I found at Talisman Island. Especially the inner region cards.

To JC: I can't believe you choose work before leaving comments on my expansion
...anyway I look forward to you input!

Hey H.B., I'm back with a few more spare moments. Waiting for the wife to catch up on some new material we've been drafting for the current book.

First things first. Part of what may have thrown me is that you started your documentation with an option... the event die. I realize that's a critical link into things like the membership cards, but it would have been better to start off with instructions for just using the basic cards. I know is should be obvious to most that you shuffle the cards and put them out there to draw. But starting with that die implies that you can't use the expansion without the die. Honestly, the entire quest rules document need restructing.

Even if use of the quest cards should be obvious, start with instructions for preparation and use of those cards as a standalone replacement for the commercial ones or as additional ones (if that is an option). Step the reader through that first as a foundation for options to be added on to it. Players new to the game and especially new to "home brews" need to know what and "option" is being applied to.

The same goes with all other sections that are not directly about getting started with the Quest cards only. That's what you expansion is based on, so that's what should lead in any instructions that come with it.

Endgames

In general, if you want random endgames unrevealed until the first character arrives their, perhaps you should make cards for them... eventually. Once Frost March comes out, I've heard from Jon New that he will look into acquiring / creating an endgame template to make that expansions cards. Of course that doesn't help right now; it's just something to keep in mind. The die roll is okay, but puts your endgames outside of the others that are going to come, commercially or as home brews. Wouldn't you rather have them standardized so they can be put into the bigger mix?

The Crown of Sorcery

Nothing wrong with it, and it will appeal to many players, but not to me. It's too convoluted a mix of standard rules and alterations. And I see no reasoning (or need) for someone who can already kill off opponents from afar to have the ability to freely leech Strength, Craft, etc. Not to my tastes, that's all.

The Crown of War

There is mention herein of Prizes and Royal Honors. Neither of these have previously been introduced in the documentation. One might go looking for them among the cards, but that won't completely explain them. They should be introduced and explained before they become part of a play option or instructions for their use in a particular scenario or in general. And I don't understand why all characters already in the Inner Region are bounced back to the Portal of Power. If this is to be a battle royal endgame, why isn't the hazardous Inner Region to be left in fair play?

Overall, this endgame (for me) has a lot of the same problems of the CoS above. Too convoluted, some breaches of character and land rules, etc., all for an unclear purpose thematically. It just doesn't sit well with me, and I think it would require too much running back to the rules sheet to double check all of these exceptions.

The Crown of Kings

Unnecessary for this expansion. This option is already widely played and doesn't need to be in here. If using the die roll, make your other two a flat 50/50. People interested in a longer more active endgame, such as those, might actually be disappointed to get this instead. Those looking for the faster win (for a faster game) would rather have this one set ahead of time than wait and draw one of the others. Don't try to be too many things to too many radically different tastes among players and then force it all into one mode of play.

Endgame Summation

Going back to the idea of endgame cards, when those templates actually become available to use, consider the card's size as the guide. You rules and conditions for the endgame should fit easily into the text half of the that card. If not, then consider whether the conditions and exceptions are too many.

The Quest Cards

Actually, for your expansion, these aren't "optionally"; they are the foundation for this expansion, considering its title. That title and these cards are primarily why people will first download your expansion. So move this section to the top as an introduction to the whole package. Introduce the based of how they are used, if they are used with the commercial ones or as replacements, and an considerations for those two options. Then turn to options of play directly related to these cards... and build from there in logical step as to what should be covered next in your expansion pack. The endgames would likely come last, not first.

I like the token system a lot! It's a really good alternative to what I did for cards that change their status. Neat idea that keeps the players honest and on track.

Failing A Quest I think should be optional, though likely players may choose to go that way anyways. The standard way is that you can't get another quest until you finish the one you have, and that does seem to keep people busy. But with some of yours, as with mine, there are ways that quest could reach of point of never being completed, in which case it has to be discarded. But, I for one would not use the Retribution rule, ever. The amount of work that a real task based quest requires puts enough hardship on the character (and player) already. After introduction of the Quest cards at the top of this document, then Completing a Quest, this should be section 3.

Completeing a Quest... again, don't care for it. Some the rewards are overkill, and I've never been in favor of Treasure cards being accessed except by the grueling encounter with the Dungeon. I do approve of the roll structure to limit that somewhat, but it's still not to my taste. However, other than being a little convoluted, I think most modern players will be chomping at the bit to go after a chance for some of those rewards. After introduction of the use of Quest cards, at the top of this document, this should be section 2.

More than one Quest... the removing the tokens rule when and if you get stuck with a new Quest would immediately be nerfed by any players I know. Fact. That the new Quest has to be completed before returning to working on the previous one is enough frustration. That token loss is a big thumbs down. After introduction of Quest Cards, then Completing a Quest, then Failing a Quest, this should be section 4 in this document.

Drawing Membership Cards... how? And you haven't even introduced what they are herein. Yes, I can go digging through the graphical images to find them, then more graphic rules cards to see where they pop up, them back to follow what their about.... but why should I have to? Again, people are going to look to this document first, or at least to connect all the dots for all else that's in this package. The rules cards are crib sheets for during actual play and not part of reading an instruction manual. But what they contain in general, not word for word reiteration, should be in here as brief step by step overview as well as explanation of usage. Again, these aren't exactly to my taste, but I could still see trying them just the same, and they will have good appeal to a lot of players. Some seem a little overpowered, but I think they also have adequate limitations.

The rest I'm going to leave off for now in review, as there are too many variables and I just don't have anymore time today. But overall, the only real thing I think needs work is the documentation structure. Beyond my own preferences of play, I think this is a valuable contribution to the community. It will see use by some players groups most certainly, and that's the most that us homebrewers can ever hope for. Well done. Now I gotta run... and please excuse all the typos. Hopefully my meaning is still clear in spite of them.

This was exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for!

I agree with most things you say with a few exceptions and I think I will update this expansion after Frostmarch expansion has been released including an restructuring of the rules document and use the ending cards instead of the die roll.

Thanks a lot for spending your time on this, JC!

Your welcome, H.B. I'm glad I could offer something of use, and it's all just opinion, so take for whatever you think it's worth.