You do not understand. Rhymer is not OP. Rhymer is broken.

You need Rhymer to make squadrons work - without him the mechanics are nearly useless.

And with him you are just laying one pancake of a minefield on the table.

I can understand ppl saying they are sick of Rhymer Balls.

Seems wierd. I don't need Rhymer to make my B-Wings work.

Rhymer is an enhancer. An enhancer that is easily stopped. In fact I did that with Tycho and an X-Wing. Used them to weaken Rhymer and then killed him. He was stuck in the background for most of the game which worked well for me.

But how sick if you could recruit Rhymer to hang out with your Bs? That's a terrifying thought, lol.

Like Rhymer + a bunch of Firesprays?

Lets see how wave 2 plays out.

Not really like that at all. B Wings are more powerful than Firesprays, cheaper, and couple really well with Yavaris.

So not like Firesprays very much in the bigger picture.

This game is fantastically balanced which is why we have discussions like this.

Well, to me the Hangars upgrade card suggest that the designers at least had the idea of storing fighter squadrons into the ships and launch them during battle.

Simply because a greater hangar don't lead to more efficient communications with fighters in space.

I can imagine they made the squadron mechanics more complex at the beginning - figured out the the game is a bit too complex and the game flow a bit too slow as for a tournament game and then decided to simplify the squadron mechanics; in favour of the ships mechanics.

In my meta Rebels are more successful with squadrons than Empire. With Empire you only really see bombers/advances with Rhymer. Any time someone shows up with fighters/interceptors, they melt to AS fire, even if swarmed. There is also the specialized versus multi purpose issue. H9/Warlord / Multi dice AS (mostly rebels) and squadrons that fight back tend to wipe them quickly.

This is the same problem I have. My rebel squadrons get bogged down for one or two turns then can't catch up with the ships or my imperial ties get bogged down and annihilated by AS fire because they swarmed up and only have 3 hull and give away points. I've said it before but if squadrons could just shoot then move at least they could stay in the fight/run away from return AS without ruining other mechanics.

I do use squadrons still, but I've found the winners are taking a Rhymer ball or Luke+Talon. I'm not slagging squadrons off, I just wish they were the tiniest bit more independent.

Edit: Plus I want them in my games because they look so **** cool and fleets look naked and unfluffy without them.

I just (finally) got through listening to the Fleshing at Sullust episode of Intensify Forward Firepower. Squadrons are dogged pretty hard on that podcast. Also, I'm seeing the How squadrons should have been thread on its seventh page - and it's just the latest thread in a long litany of similar threads.

You guys must really live in... wait, no, I'm in Oregon. I must really live in the alternate universe.

Where I'm at, squadrons are doing just fine. I took first in two of our Sullust events, with big fat Rhymer Balls of Fire. Squadrons were also well-represented in the top tier of those tournaments - including the squadrons of the filthy rebels (Lyraeus' 3xA+3xB list, and Iskander4000's Tycho+2xA+4xY being cases in point).

Sullust was also not an outlier. Rhymer's Balls have served me very well in the past and are responsible for three of my four tournament medals. Yes, I'm gloating - I'm an Imperial - but I'm not an Armada god. I've come in dead last in a tournament too - incidentally, when I didn't bring squadrons.

So, am I living in a parallel universe? Are Rhymer's Balls the exception to the rule? Or have the rest of you just not caught up to the fact that squadrons are actually pretty good?

Rhymer balls are fine because you don't need to sacrifice ships to get the same output at range. Other fighters are dogged pretty hard because they not only take the place of ships physically, they also require the constant use of squadron commands on your ships which requires they not do other things like Navigate into better positions, Repair critical shield and hull damage, or Concentrate Fire onto other ships. And of course, on the loss of all your ships you lose no matter how many fighters remain. In the case of B-Wings, you can literally run away from them in most ships even with dedicated squadron support while taking little or no damage until either the Rebels are forced to abandon their fighters to actually hit you or you just end in a draw.

In short, fighters are a tactical disadvantage when the opponent doesn't play along.

My experience is a little lopsided because I've been playing KushielRDF a LOT and only played some of my other local players once or twice, but I find squadrons tend to come in only three varieties:

1) Rhymer ball. I actually hate this mechanic, not because it's OP or broken or anything, I feel it's quite reasonable. But I'm sick to death of it.

There are Rebel bomber balls as well, they just don't have Rhymer, and Rhymer really makes the bombers so much more effective.

I do understand what you're saying, though. As they've also said on IFF, Rhymer is such an auto-include and such a powerful addition to your fleet, that this single character alone shapes the nature of the game. It's somewhat ironic because he's a bit of a dud in X-Wing, where his ability is individual, rather than cooperative with friendlies.

Thats a specification of a broken game element.

You don't even have to discuss or outline tactics or details. "Rhymer Ball" is sufficient.

"How did the game went? He Rhymer Balled you? I see ... "

Have you beed Rhymer Balled today?

I'm wary of cries of "OP!!", just like I think it's nonsense that squadrons are under-powered as has seemed to be the dominant opinion on this forum. If squadrons are UP and Rhymer is OP, then either one or both of those two statements is false, or Rhymer is not a squadron. I'm going to go with the notion that both the statements are false, and this is a game with certain powerful combinations, and that those powerful combinations can be shut down with good strategy.

In other words - there are things that are good, but not broken.

I think that "underpowered" is the wrong word. "Inefficient" is probably better. Because of the way the squadrons work, they require constant attendance by other ships which in turn are themselves being made inefficient in their action economy. And unlike X-Wing, it's very dfficult to increase the number of actions a ship can take, or break up their order into something more favorable. Which is why Demolisher and Rhymer are considered to be so powerful.

Some great discussion here.

If your "meta" settles on assault frigates vs assault frigates, I can see how fighters probably seem less effective. The AF has the speed and all the benefits of staying at range.

But that is one case, and with Wave 2, probably a case that will be an exception going forward.

The other thread about squadrons is getting a bit aggressive and rude. Nothing directed at me, just non-constructive comments.

I'll admit I'd like to see a change to squadrons but I still use them, they look too cool not to.

At Sullust I took Luke, Tycho and 2 A-Wings and won. Before the Most wanted nerf they were devastating to the 'wanted' ship. (I was actually more disappointed at that than the X17 change).

I'm not trying to change anyone's minds as some of you are having lots of success with them. SO my question is what squadrons do you take? Has anyone taken 10+ Tie fighters and rinsed with them?

My meta is currently successfully using:

Combos of Rhymer ball - Usually rendered ineffective at the apex of the battle by a few fighters

OR Luke(+Adar Talon) and A-wings - Usually Luke gets focused down and locked up at the apex of the battle by a few fighters

OR Nothing - Does really well if you knock the carrier out. Really bad if you don't

The Rhymer ball is a bit of a given when flying Imperials in wave 1, it's actually better than it's points value in ships so long as Rhymer is alive.

For my Rebel fleet in wave 1 I always bring 4 A-wings, they are the best all around fighter in wave 1 for me. Their speed and anti-squadron ability is good and they can put damage into ships if needed.

The issue I think people run into is they think you have to command your squadrons from a single carrier ship and you don't, it's inefficient, I command mine from the ship best for the job at the time, often commanding them from more than one ship a turn. This also gets past having to equip a single ship as a carrier, which makes it far more vulnerable itself.

I would never leave home without my squadron escorts and that will become doubly true in wave 2.

Now all I hope is they reverse the horrible rule that once all ships are dead you get the points for squadrons even if they are not dead.

(My list right now consists of 2 x MkII B AF's, a Jaina's Light CR-90 and 4 A-wings. Mon Mothma for Admiral on the CR-90 with Leia)

The list I run is:

AFMkIIB - General Dodonna, X17, Gunnery Team, Advanced Projectors

AFMkIIB - X17, Gunnery Team, Advanced Projectors

CR-90B

B-Wing Squadron

B-Wing Squadron

B-Wing Squadron

B-Wing Squadron

With as strong a presence as 4xGlad and VSD+3xGlad has had in the metagame recently, a lot of the game of Armada is decided in deployment. A Gladiator heavy no-squadron list needs to engage by turn 3 in order to kill what it needs to in order to secure the win. Because of this, the use of a dummy ship and squadrons to pad activations has been key in my success against these builds. I usually try to place 3 asteroids/debris fields about a range ruler away from my own board edge, dead center in a line parallel to my board edge. Then when deployment happens, I put down a naked CR-90B at speed 2 dead center. Then 2 deployments of B-Wings in front of the CR-90 (If the opponent has deployed center of the board, follow the rest of this game plan. If they set up to the side, set up in the opposite corner, run away, and make them fly into your B-Wings for some hurt.). By this time I know where my opponent has committed, so I set up my 2 AFMkIIBs in kind of an offset conga line facing sideways about 1/4 of the way in from the side of the board, with absolutely no intention of turning them in toward the center of the board. They spend the whole game flying sideways at speed 2 with a nav token just in case. This means that the Gladiators need to come to me. The CR-90 spends the whole game running away and being points the other player will never score. Meanwhile the B-Wings park between the 3 aforementioned obstacles. If the Imperial player wants to time his engagement properly he will need to pass between these obstacles in order to hit my fleet - and on turn 2 he will be eating a B-Wing Sandwich as well as my broadsides from the AFMkIIBs. The B-Wings essentially act as mines because you know where the opponent needs to go, so you position them there so that if they do commit, they are eating blue and black dice to the face.

I got to the top table at 4 separate Sullust events, beating gladiator spam lists to get there, using this strategy. I think squadrons are fine, they just need to be thought of through a different mindset.

Daveddo raises a point as well, chasing things with your fighters is also inefficient, this isn't X-wing, placing them with a strategy in mind is what you need to do. I've seen people poo-poo'ing the "minefield" analogy, but it's quite on point. Armada is not a game where just reacting works, planning is essential and you need to do it from deployment onwards.

"Because of the way the squadrons work, they require constant attendance by other ships which in turn are themselves being made inefficient in their action economy."

This is not true.

So in San Antonio we had 4 massing at Sullust events in one weekend. We had to double book Saturday events at two different locations where I had a friend TO one of them. I went to three of the tournaments 2 of which I was the TO. The Saturday and Sunday one's I got to play in because we had a odd number of players for Saturday in where I was the TO. The tournament I played in I received first place. My list was the following:

Af mk 2 B

Garm bel, flight controllers, expanded hangars, advanced projectors

Af mk 2 B

Flight controllers, advanced projectors

10 y-wings

On Saturday I won all three games without taking a single casualty not even a y-wing squadron. On Sunday I won all three games but my opponents were more prepared and brought more squadrons to lock down my Y-wings. Still the last two games all I lost was my cheap assault frigate, and still won by a sizable margin. Garm bel Iblis brings so much to the list with those tokens in the early and late game. It basically means that for two turns you will get a 9 squadron y-wing activation. Which really is all you need. One turn to get the y-wings engaged and plotted over an objective and another turn to move the y-wings to MOPP up. Keep the whales moving in a circle around your opponent's ships avoiding much of the fire, and keeping in activation range of your squadrons. The extra engineer and navigation token in the fifth round really add that added survivability to the whales, and of course advanced projectors. Just don't do anything cute or aggressive with them. Let your y-wings do the work. Overall the players that placed well in all the tournaments brought some assortment of squadrons or another. The all ship builds were not even in the running except for 1 or 2 exceptions. But is also no coincidence that the people who won were also people regularly practicing and playing games. They learned to utilize the squadrons.

It's not hard to get 4 shots a game with a well deployed A-wing using NO squadron commands.

Turn 1 move to a likely approach.
Turn 2 fire on front
Turn 3 fire on rear
Turn 4 reposition
Turn 5 fire on front
Turn 6 fire on rear

This does require some skill, but it's also made easier by enemy ships moving in formation (you may miss gauge one, but get a shot on the other)

This is possible because of how ships move. Turn 1 all ships move then comes the squadron phase. So the number of possible VSD positions is exactly 1 for their next move, 4 if they issue a navigate command. A MK2 has 3 possible positions (moving speed three) many more if they navigate, but many can be eliminated as it will take the ship out of the fight (which is a big win if my squadron effectively removes a ship for most of the game. )

So with some practice of estimating distance I can have a reasonable chance of placing an A-wing within distance 1 of where the best possible location for their ship to be after its turn 2 move. I then fire on it in the squadron phase.

Turn 3 the ship pulls away. If I positioned well on the approach it was just in range of my squadron. My squadron threatens an attack of a circle with a diameter of 18.6 cm (3.4 cm base + 2 X (7.6 cm distance)). A ship moves 6.9 cm per segment. So if the ship wants to go through the squadron (because I placed it well) it needs to be going at least speed 3, possibly 4 to get its rear end out of the circle. Turning complicates the math but if they are turning wildly when they should want to go straight I'll take that as a win.

So versus most bigger ships, I get two attacks in then reposition. I might not get a second set of attacks on the same ship, but it shouldn't be too hard to get a pair of attacks on another ship.

It's not hard to get 4 shots a game with a well deployed A-wing using NO squadron commands.

Turn 1 move to a likely approach.

Turn 2 fire on front

Turn 3 fire on rear

Turn 4 reposition

Turn 5 fire on front

Turn 6 fire on rear

This does require some skill, but it's also made easier by enemy ships moving in formation (you may miss gauge one, but get a shot on the other)

This is possible because of how ships move. Turn 1 all ships move then comes the squadron phase. So the number of possible VSD positions is exactly 1 for their next move, 4 if they issue a navigate command. A MK2 has 3 possible positions (moving speed three) many more if they navigate, but many can be eliminated as it will take the ship out of the fight (which is a big win if my squadron effectively removes a ship for most of the game. )

So with some practice of estimating distance I can have a reasonable chance of placing an A-wing within distance 1 of where the best possible location for their ship to be after its turn 2 move. I then fire on it in the squadron phase.

Turn 3 the ship pulls away. If I positioned well on the approach it was just in range of my squadron. My squadron threatens an attack of a circle with a diameter of 18.6 cm (3.4 cm base + 2 X (7.6 cm distance)). A ship moves 6.9 cm per segment. So if the ship wants to go through the squadron (because I placed it well) it needs to be going at least speed 3, possibly 4 to get its rear end out of the circle. Turning complicates the math but if they are turning wildly when they should want to go straight I'll take that as a win.

So versus most bigger ships, I get two attacks in then reposition. I might not get a second set of attacks on the same ship, but it shouldn't be too hard to get a pair of attacks on another ship.

Word of warning, this is only on vassal sims, but I find this to be exactly the case. What I've tried doing is getting the movement tool and copy/pasting a ship at every possible manuever and seeing where I would need to be to skip a squad command (setting up in front, then getting to blast the rear). (with dial, without dial, with token, without, with both, etc.)

Excluding speed 4 ships, if you "willkommen" the bow arc (scooching in front as far as possible, but within distance 1), you can "bon vogage" the rear arc. This is reasonable for small ships, easy with mediums, and I imagine shall be hilarious with large bases.

Thinking about it more, I think this may be why Independence costs the whopping 7 points that it does- it REALLY opens up where you can fart out those 4 b-wings both setting up for the initial contact and that key re-positioning move mentioned. Otherwise, the b's aren't all that hard to leave in the dust.

It's not hard to get 4 shots a game with a well deployed A-wing using NO squadron commands.

Turn 1 move to a likely approach.

Turn 2 fire on front

Turn 3 fire on rear

Turn 4 reposition

Turn 5 fire on front

Turn 6 fire on rear

This does require some skill, but it's also made easier by enemy ships moving in formation (you may miss gauge one, but get a shot on the other)

This is possible because of how ships move. Turn 1 all ships move then comes the squadron phase. So the number of possible VSD positions is exactly 1 for their next move, 4 if they issue a navigate command. A MK2 has 3 possible positions (moving speed three) many more if they navigate, but many can be eliminated as it will take the ship out of the fight (which is a big win if my squadron effectively removes a ship for most of the game. )

So with some practice of estimating distance I can have a reasonable chance of placing an A-wing within distance 1 of where the best possible location for their ship to be after its turn 2 move. I then fire on it in the squadron phase.

Turn 3 the ship pulls away. If I positioned well on the approach it was just in range of my squadron. My squadron threatens an attack of a circle with a diameter of 18.6 cm (3.4 cm base + 2 X (7.6 cm distance)). A ship moves 6.9 cm per segment. So if the ship wants to go through the squadron (because I placed it well) it needs to be going at least speed 3, possibly 4 to get its rear end out of the circle. Turning complicates the math but if they are turning wildly when they should want to go straight I'll take that as a win.

So versus most bigger ships, I get two attacks in then reposition. I might not get a second set of attacks on the same ship, but it shouldn't be too hard to get a pair of attacks on another ship.

Word of warning, this is only on vassal sims, but I find this to be exactly the case. What I've tried doing is getting the movement tool and copy/pasting a ship at every possible manuever and seeing where I would need to be to skip a squad command (setting up in front, then getting to blast the rear). (with dial, without dial, with token, without, with both, etc.)

Excluding speed 4 ships, if you "willkommen" the bow arc (scooching in front as far as possible, but within distance 1), you can "bon vogage" the rear arc. This is reasonable for small ships, easy with mediums, and I imagine shall be hilarious with large bases.

Thinking about it more, I think this may be why Independence costs the whopping 7 points that it does- it REALLY opens up where you can fart out those 4 b-wings both setting up for the initial contact and that key re-positioning move mentioned. Otherwise, the b's aren't all that hard to leave in the dust.

....

Excluding speed 4 ships, if you "willkommen" the bow arc (scooching in front as far as possible, but within distance 1), you can "bon vogage" the rear arc. This is reasonable for small ships, easy with mediums, and I imagine shall be hilarious with large bases.

....

This strategy is going to be very good against large bases, granted they are going at a slower speed. What I think will happen is, if you position those squadrons a little past the front arc, the large ship will keep overlapping at least a few of them (ISD may be able to avoid overlapping if running speed 3), meaning you can place them in the front arc again. Rinse and repeat

So in San Antonio we had 4 massing at Sullust events in one weekend. We had to double book Saturday events at two different locations where I had a friend TO one of them. I went to three of the tournaments 2 of which I was the TO. The Saturday and Sunday one's I got to play in because we had a odd number of players for Saturday in where I was the TO. The tournament I played in I received first place. My list was the following:

Af mk 2 B

Garm bel, flight controllers, expanded hangars, advanced projectors

Af mk 2 B

Flight controllers, advanced projectors

10 y-wings

On Saturday I won all three games without taking a single casualty not even a y-wing squadron. On Sunday I won all three games but my opponents were more prepared and brought more squadrons to lock down my Y-wings. Still the last two games all I lost was my cheap assault frigate, and still won by a sizable margin. Garm bel Iblis brings so much to the list with those tokens in the early and late game. It basically means that for two turns you will get a 9 squadron y-wing activation. Which really is all you need. One turn to get the y-wings engaged and plotted over an objective and another turn to move the y-wings to MOPP up. Keep the whales moving in a circle around your opponent's ships avoiding much of the fire, and keeping in activation range of your squadrons. The extra engineer and navigation token in the fifth round really add that added survivability to the whales, and of course advanced projectors. Just don't do anything cute or aggressive with them. Let your y-wings do the work. Overall the players that placed well in all the tournaments brought some assortment of squadrons or another. The all ship builds were not even in the running except for 1 or 2 exceptions. But is also no coincidence that the people who won were also people regularly practicing and playing games. They learned to utilize the squadrons.

You know.... we still need to play those final round Sullust lists against one another, since we didn't get matched by like... one tournament point.

So without writing a 50-page treatise:

• The cost of using a squadron can be defined as:
  • The point cost of the squadron
  • The opportunity cost of other commands IF a squadron command is needed
  • The maneuver cost of linking your squadron movement with your ship movement IF a squadron command is needed

First, this tells you that squadrons which could act at full efficiency without a squadron command drop 2/3rds of the items on the above list; therefore, I am going to make the statement that I think "rogue" squadrons in Wave II will be easier to fit into lists than anything we have now.

Second, this tells you that squadrons that break the maneuver curve, are low in points, and are less command intensive are more valuable. There are two varieties of squadron in the game right now that fit this profile: A-Wings (high speed, low points, counter) and Rhymer (long enough attack range that he and his blob do not need to move as often and are thus more command efficient). I would suggest it is not coincidental that A-Wings (especially Tycho) and Rhymer balls are the most common "strong" squadron builds, as they do the most to maximize value for the points and minimize the other weaknesses of squadrons.

Third, in any other build, other than as occasional cheap throw-away speed bumps (A-Wings, again, are probably best at this), if you have not built your entire objective / ship / upgrade / squadron build to maximize the value of the fact that you are bringing squadrons, you will have a weaker build than "average" given the costs of squadrons beyond just the points.

So if we are talking about squadrons in the meta, I think we need to ask the following questions:

1. If we are saying squadrons are "strong" in your meta, do you mean squadrons in general, or do you mean spare points A-Wings and Rhymer balls, as those should be the two "dominant" types of squadrons on a cost vs. effectiveness analysis, on average?
2. If we are saying there are strong squadron builds in your meta, do you mean purpose-built squadrons where the counter build is uncommonly encountered (e.g. the Y-wing spam double whale build in a meta where nobody plays Garm's Gups or a CR-90 swarm)?
3. Or are we saying that, on average, squadron builds outperform non-squadron builds across the board?

I would suggest condition 1 & 2 occurring in local builds do not surprise me. In fact, if your tournaments / group is < 15-20 people, depending on what people play, localized #2 occurrences should be somewhat common. More so, #1 is just true (Shmitty's Gencon build had A-Wings at the #2 final position, and Rhymer ball has won multiple Sullust events) as a general statement.

Thus, I think the only correct conclusion right now is this: uncoordinated / slow / unsupported squadron builds are almost certainly worse across the board than all-ship builds, but synergy-related squadron builds (Rebel Aces) built properly should perform well, and spare A-Wings and Rhymer ball have proven to be more than strong enough to win major events.

So are squadrons good, on average, as a general inclusion? No.

So are squadrons good, in particular circumstances, when lists are built to maximize their advantages? Yes, they can be, especially when those squadrons themselves are fast and command efficient.

Good analysis. You're missing Yavaris B-wings. Good because of massive damage.

So my spare points B-Wings are an outlier?

So, when a large base moves 2 or 3, does it overlap squadrons placed in front of it, nearly without fail?

My experience with B-wings is thus: results are very dependent on opponent. In the Sullust tournament I played in, for instance, I crushed someone with a B-wing heavy Yavaris build in round 3 for a 10-0 win. My list? 2xAF, 1xNeb 1xCR90. I just didn't engage the B-wings, and they aren't fast enough to catch my ships. I probably had B-wings shoot at my ships a grand total of 2-3 times the entire game.

However, against Glads/VSD rush, it's very strong.

Something that match-up dependent would fall into bucket 2. You can win with it... if you don't hit a counter list. I think the problem is that the most common counter-list is going to be the rebel 3xAFII list or CR90 spam. Both are common. Therefore, the list is unlikely to win a tournament as the player pool grows in size, as your probability of hitting a counter list grows with the number of games required to find a winner. I'd be much more optimistic about winning a 6-person tourney than Gencon with a B-wing list, as an example.

So, when a large base moves 2 or 3, does it overlap squadrons placed in front of it, nearly without fail?

When I was watching the last match of the sullust tournament I went to, the large bases dont move a whole lot just due to their size.

I would need to actually get wave 2 in order to do some actual testing, but if it is going speed 1 or 2, it will most likely overlap squadrons, but not sure of speed 3.

Portland area.. . Hmmmm we see Rhymerball's, TIE swarms, alphabet soups, A's and B's (me), etc.

So on the List. . . I would say #3 mainly.

Squadron build out preforms non squadron builds at times.

It all depends on what you qualify as a squadron build