Or even pick up some rebel stuff and rebel squadrons and try to make those B-Wings work and the other stuff

If you prove to be part of the Rebel Alliance and a traitor I will have you taken away.

Wow, we just ninja'd up on TheRealStarkiller.

There are two things that bother me about Star Wars: Armada, and they're both up in this Thread.

The First, you yourself actually put succinctly, with the difference between the Objective Meta and the Intersubjective Meta. Or rather, my issue is that the assumption is there is only One "Meta". When, as you have said, there clearly is NOT. As has been discussed many times in many places.

The Second, is The Sky Is Falling. We saw it with Demolisher. We Saw it with Squadrons. We're starting to hear it with Ackbar. The idea that Fantasy Flight Messed Up. Or Fantasy Flight Obviously Didn't Playtest. These are heavily laded reactive statements - to what I believe, is a situation not understood on the largesse. The very idea that We Know Better Than The Designers is hubris of a high order.

Mostly, my issue is that one side of the argument presents Anecdotal Evidence to hammer their position home, and then patently ignores or trivialises the equally accurate Anecdotal Evidence provided to the Contrary.

And the second Wave, the argued completion wave, in which we get to see a more complete set of Ships, Rules and Such in action, is not even released to the general public yet.

Doesn't sound like an armada issue but rather the usual internetweb issue when discussing any game, be it board or video.

Please keep bringing all ship lists. I appreciate it and hope to run against you in a tournament.

I took 7 regular ties in the sullest event and earned their points two fold in every battle and placed first. In two of my battles vs all ship builds i did over 10 damage. People underestimate ties blue dice and the fact that most defense tokens are worthless against them.

There are two things that bother me about Star Wars: Armada, and they're both up in this Thread.

[...]

The idea that Fantasy Flight Messed Up. Or Fantasy Flight Obviously Didn't Playtest. These are heavily laded reactive statements - to what I believe, is a situation not understood on the largesse. The very idea that We Know Better Than The Designers is hubris of a high order.

Doesn't sound like an armada issue but rather the usual internetweb issue when discussing any game, be it board or video.

Very true.

That said, I don't think it's necessary to elevate FFG to omniscient and omnipotent status either. The development of X-Wing does show that they have limitations that they'll admit to. They take that into account and frequently try to fix their mess-ups at a future state of the game. In X-Wing the big flub was the TIE Advanced, and not the reversal on the XI7 vs. AP.

So, I don't think that there's anything wrong with questioning FFG, but people do seem to do it all too readily, and waste their time trying to suggest ways in which to fix the game. I'm certainly not going to waste my time reading all the how-to-fix-the-[X] threads.

Even if I think their game might have a few bugs in it (I assume it does, but I don't worry about it), it's theirs to fix and ours to play (according to the rules as written) until they do so.

if and when I do it is because wizkids has made me jaded

What's funny about all the Rhymer hate?

I just removed him from my squadron list because I rarely seem to find the opportunity to use him, preferring commanded TIE bombers to stationary black die minefields.

I must be doing it wrong.

For me, I think conceptually squadrons are good - but I'm still trying to learn how to fly them effectively. I'm also primarily an Imp player and I have tried the Rhymer ball with limited success, as well as used a 4 TIE Fighter/Interceptor squadron screen to limited success. But so far, I haven't got the hang of effectively using them in every game. Based on my local meta of limited squadron usage, I'd say other pilots are in the same boat.

What problems have your Balls of Rhymer run into? Do your opponents bring just enough fighters to hold off the bombing runs, or do your opponents' ships just run around them?

Between not being able to consistently time squadron commands and/or predict enemy movement of fast ships (i.e. everything in wave 1 but a VSD), they don't seem to do enough damage to be worth their points. Maybe my problem is that I normally only see 3-4 total squadrons in a Rhymer ball? What's a good ball make up?

For me, I think conceptually squadrons are good - but I'm still trying to learn how to fly them effectively. I'm also primarily an Imp player and I have tried the Rhymer ball with limited success, as well as used a 4 TIE Fighter/Interceptor squadron screen to limited success. But so far, I haven't got the hang of effectively using them in every game. Based on my local meta of limited squadron usage, I'd say other pilots are in the same boat.

What problems have your Balls of Rhymer run into? Do your opponents bring just enough fighters to hold off the bombing runs, or do your opponents' ships just run around them?

Between not being able to consistently time squadron commands and/or predict enemy movement of fast ships (i.e. everything in wave 1 but a VSD), they don't seem to do enough damage to be worth their points. Maybe my problem is that I normally only see 3-4 total squadrons in a Rhymer ball? What's a good ball make up?

liasons my friend.... liasons. Don't listen to dano!

I just removed him from my squadron list because I rarely seem to find the opportunity to use him, preferring commanded TIE bombers to stationary black die minefields.

I must be doing it wrong.

It's only wrong if you tend to lose. If you tend to win your games, keep on truckin'.

For me, I think conceptually squadrons are good - but I'm still trying to learn how to fly them effectively. I'm also primarily an Imp player and I have tried the Rhymer ball with limited success, as well as used a 4 TIE Fighter/Interceptor squadron screen to limited success. But so far, I haven't got the hang of effectively using them in every game. Based on my local meta of limited squadron usage, I'd say other pilots are in the same boat.

What problems have your Balls of Rhymer run into? Do your opponents bring just enough fighters to hold off the bombing runs, or do your opponents' ships just run around them?

Between not being able to consistently time squadron commands and/or predict enemy movement of fast ships (i.e. everything in wave 1 but a VSD), they don't seem to do enough damage to be worth their points. Maybe my problem is that I normally only see 3-4 total squadrons in a Rhymer ball? What's a good ball make up?

See, there you are: you need Great Balls of Rhymer! The beauty of bombers throwing black dice is not that they singly do much damage, but that they are each separate attacks that either deplete their targets' defense tokens or make them useless. It's really great if you're doing your bombing run on a squadron command, making him use those defense tokens, and then blast him with the firepower from your ship when he's defenseless.

For me, I think conceptually squadrons are good - but I'm still trying to learn how to fly them effectively. I'm also primarily an Imp player and I have tried the Rhymer ball with limited success, as well as used a 4 TIE Fighter/Interceptor squadron screen to limited success. But so far, I haven't got the hang of effectively using them in every game. Based on my local meta of limited squadron usage, I'd say other pilots are in the same boat.

What problems have your Balls of Rhymer run into? Do your opponents bring just enough fighters to hold off the bombing runs, or do your opponents' ships just run around them?

Between not being able to consistently time squadron commands and/or predict enemy movement of fast ships (i.e. everything in wave 1 but a VSD), they don't seem to do enough damage to be worth their points. Maybe my problem is that I normally only see 3-4 total squadrons in a Rhymer ball? What's a good ball make up?

liasons my friend.... liasons. Don't listen to dano!

Do you mean Weapons Liaison? I don't like the cost of either it or Defense Liaison (3 points plus discard a token every time you use its ability).

I just removed him from my squadron list because I rarely seem to find the opportunity to use him, preferring commanded TIE bombers to stationary black die minefields.

I must be doing it wrong.

It's only wrong if you tend to lose. If you tend to win your games, keep on truckin'.

For me, I think conceptually squadrons are good - but I'm still trying to learn how to fly them effectively. I'm also primarily an Imp player and I have tried the Rhymer ball with limited success, as well as used a 4 TIE Fighter/Interceptor squadron screen to limited success. But so far, I haven't got the hang of effectively using them in every game. Based on my local meta of limited squadron usage, I'd say other pilots are in the same boat.

What problems have your Balls of Rhymer run into? Do your opponents bring just enough fighters to hold off the bombing runs, or do your opponents' ships just run around them?

Between not being able to consistently time squadron commands and/or predict enemy movement of fast ships (i.e. everything in wave 1 but a VSD), they don't seem to do enough damage to be worth their points. Maybe my problem is that I normally only see 3-4 total squadrons in a Rhymer ball? What's a good ball make up?

See, there you are: you need Great Balls of Rhymer! The beauty of bombers throwing black dice is not that they singly do much damage, but that they are each separate attacks that either deplete their targets' defense tokens or make them useless. It's really great if you're doing your bombing run on a squadron command, making him use those defense tokens, and then blast him with the firepower from your ship when he's defenseless.

Yeah I think I get the basic theory, but when 3-4 black dice get rolled from the bombers, then the ship blasts away (from a squadron command that turn), it just doesn't seem to be as effective as dropping the squadron entirely in favor of more upgrades and/or squeezing in another ship. That's why I was questioning how many bombers people thought were basically needed for a "good" Rhymer ball. I definitely know I need more practice.

Also, I'm pretty confident that wave 2 changes everything for ships as well as squadrons, which will refresh the meta.

Edit:

Oh and I should mention that I always take 4 squadrons of some combination of TIE Fighters/Interceptors because it typically helps so much in the deployment phase. So maybe that's why my 3 TIE bomber ball isn't that effective in my list?

Someone hit on it earlier. Lots of folks don't recognize the massive constraints the movement stick has on POSITIONS for next turn. Most move templates put the majority of Yaw clicks on the final segment, meaning those Yaw clicks have a near trivial impact on position. (There's a minor impact for the VERY edge of range where rotating one direction or the other might put you in range or not).

Look at a VSD. At either speed 1 or 2, the Yaw click is the final segment meaning you ALWAYS know where a VSD will be next round, just maybe not its exact heading.

Look at a CR-90 at speed 4. You have 1 yaw clicks at 2 and 3, with the double yaw at 4. The double clicks do nothing for position. You only have to worry about the clicks at 2 and 3.

This is one of the reasons a Nav command can be SO AMAZING at times. You get to add a click at the first location which for a fast moving ship can significantly affect the final location. Heck, even carrying a Nav Token around even if you never use it is useful to keep the enemy thinking about a larger range of possibilities.

However, what does this have to do with squadrons?

It means it isn't THAT hard to get squadrons into the right place with a little forethought. Especially when you consider that certain moves can usually be eliminated very quickly (generally those taking a ship out of the fight. even if they take that route and you don't get to fire, their ship is now possibly very out of position).

I think the most common mistake is attacking for THIS turn and not positioning for multiple attacks over multiple turns.

This game is fantastically balanced which is why we have discussions like this.

We had two squadron-heavy lists at my Sullust event (12 players). By "squadron-heavy," I mean I came in at a hefty third with four generic TIEs (which I brought along solely for B-wing insurance), there were a few lists with 2-3 A-wings, and about half the lists had no squadrons whatsoever (including two corvette swarms). One list was a double Vic-I list with 4 TIE Advanced, 3 TIE Bombers, and Rhymer. The other had a mix of Rhymer, TIE bombers, and some TIE fighters mixed in for anti-squadron dogfighting. I ended up facing the TIE Advanced/Bomber list in Round 3. It was closer than I thought it would be, but I couldn't manage to table his second Vic before round 6 ended. Ended up losing 2-8, and my opponent ended up taking second overall.

I really wanted to run some sort of fighter swarm, but wanted to run Empire and three ships, so I couldn't make it fit in a way I felt comfortable with. Am definitely looking forward to 400 points, though. That, plus the new influx of squadrons, should open up exciting possibilities.

I like squadrons, and I think that they can be hard to figure out. Rebel ones are easier to integrate into a list than Imperial IMO. But the individual attacks add up in a way that monster dice rolls cannot.

I ran a A and 2 B setup for most of Sullust. Most times, it was absolutely enough to match any opposing squads and at best was a force multiplier for my ships. I think 400 pts should make it easier... Plus the R&V pack makes not taking any at all pretty **** risky.

You do not understand. Rhymer is not OP. Rhymer is broken.

You need Rhymer to make squadrons work - without him the mechanics are nearly useless.

And with him you are just laying one pancake of a minefield on the table.

I can understand ppl saying they are sick of Rhymer Balls.

For this statement to be true it would require that success with Squadrons sans-Rhymer would be implausible if not outright impossible for players to obtain. And yet you have many players offering that both they and others are able to obtain success with Rhymer-less Squadron play. Your position that Rhymer-less Squadrons are inherently useless isn't a defensible one in the face of others being able to have success in that situation. No matter how many times you say it you aren't somehow going to wipe away event results that don't support your assertions. You've taken your assertions so far to one end of the spectrum that those results don't just hurt your position, they shatter it.

If people across varied play groups are able to have success with Squadrons without Rhymer you can't substantiate the claim that the Squadron mechanics are inherently broken.

We had two squadron-heavy lists at my Sullust event (12 players). By "squadron-heavy," I mean I came in at a hefty third with four generic TIEs (which I brought along solely for B-wing insurance), there were a few lists with 2-3 A-wings, and about half the lists had no squadrons whatsoever (including two corvette swarms). One list was a double Vic-I list with 4 TIE Advanced, 3 TIE Bombers, and Rhymer. The other had a mix of Rhymer, TIE bombers, and some TIE fighters mixed in for anti-squadron dogfighting. I ended up facing the TIE Advanced/Bomber list in Round 3. It was closer than I thought it would be, but I couldn't manage to table his second Vic before round 6 ended. Ended up losing 2-8, and my opponent ended up taking second overall.

4 TIE Advanced... it sounds like he overestimated the number of other squadrons he'd have to face, but at 97 points that definitely counts as "squadron-heavy".

In my meta Rebels are more successful with squadrons than Empire. With Empire you only really see bombers/advances with Rhymer. Any time someone shows up with fighters/interceptors, they melt to AS fire, even if swarmed. There is also the specialized versus multi purpose issue. H9/Warlord / Multi dice AS (mostly rebels) and squadrons that fight back tend to wipe them quickly.

it is a question of Meta, not of anti-squadron

Imp bombers are long range; their ships are close

Reb B-wings are very short range, relatively speaking; their ships are long

Hell, this distinction is even reflected in the relevant titles. Corrupter makes you faster (more range), and Yavaris rewards you immensely for not moving (reducing your range by a LOT)

given that the meta boogieman is the GSD, a close range ship that VSDs don't really have the maneuverability to handle, I can kinda see why some Imperial Admirals don't think Rhymer/bombers are as amazing as they actually are

I could never understand that viewpoint from the inside of an exploding Assault Frigate, I'll tell you that much

We had two squadron-heavy lists at my Sullust event (12 players). By "squadron-heavy," I mean I came in at a hefty third with four generic TIEs (which I brought along solely for B-wing insurance), there were a few lists with 2-3 A-wings, and about half the lists had no squadrons whatsoever (including two corvette swarms). One list was a double Vic-I list with 4 TIE Advanced, 3 TIE Bombers, and Rhymer. The other had a mix of Rhymer, TIE bombers, and some TIE fighters mixed in for anti-squadron dogfighting. I ended up facing the TIE Advanced/Bomber list in Round 3. It was closer than I thought it would be, but I couldn't manage to table his second Vic before round 6 ended. Ended up losing 2-8, and my opponent ended up taking second overall.

4 TIE Advanced... it sounds like he overestimated the number of other squadrons he'd have to face, but at 97 points that definitely counts as "squadron-heavy".

He was definitely hedging his bets. But between 8 black die at 75% chance to inflict one damage, at medium range, and five hull apiece, he seemed content to make the trade in the off-chance he had to keep his squadrons alive. Ended up working well for him, as I had four TIE fighters with flight controllers (purely for B-wing insurance, in the hopes of taking out 1-2 of them before the TIEs vaporized). Had they been all TIE bombers, I would have liked my chances against them.

He ran into a triple AFII list in Round 2 (no squadrons), playing the table right next to mine. Seemed to be doing quite well in that match, even with four TIE advanceds. Black dice en-mass are nasty, no matter who's throwing them.

given that the meta boogieman is the GSD, a close range ship that VSDs don't really have the maneuverability to handle, I can kinda see why some Imperial Admirals don't think Rhymer/bombers are as amazing as they actually are

Your meta may vary. In my meta, the VSD has had a pretty strong comeback, largely because of its role as a carrier.

It's true that it doesn't move as fast as other ships, but with that weak rear I don't think you'd really want to go more than speed 2.

As to the speed 4 Rhymer Ball. It doesn't seem to be rocket science to toss them out where you expect the battle to be at around turn 3 and 4, and then let your VSDs mosey towards that area so that it's going to be in the frontal firing arc.

Of course, it's up to your opponent to not let that happen, but at that point you can use it to dictate his movements towards the sides of the table.

Anyway, it doesn't seem like that big of a paradox to me between the RhymerBall and the VSD.

He was definitely hedging his bets. But between 8 black die at 75% chance to inflict one damage, at medium range, and five hull apiece, he seemed content to make the trade in the off-chance he had to keep his squadrons alive. Ended up working well for him, as I had four TIE fighters with flight controllers (purely for B-wing insurance, in the hopes of taking out 1-2 of them before the TIEs vaporized). Had they been all TIE bombers, I would have liked my chances against them.

He ran into a triple AFII list in Round 2 (no squadrons), playing the table right next to mine. Seemed to be doing quite well in that match, even with four TIE advanceds. Black dice en-mass are nasty, no matter who's throwing them.

Good point. I just balk at the markup for the TIE Advanced over the TIE Bomber. I'd rather just get a Vader+Soontir combo to deal with pesky rebel squadrons. Vader then can also attack ships almost like he's a bomber (minus the face-up damage cards).

I always wanted to try the addition of TIE Adv to the Rhymer ball myself, since if you only got one Squadron pack they were the only other black dice tossers. In the list I was fiddling with in my head (which never happened because I went Rebel to balance out the factions in my area) I even paid the extra points to step up to Vader, since he gets to count his crits as damage. Sure not as CRIT crits, but the extra damage could peel shields away for bomber key-word ships to have a go.

Makes me wonder if I should be spending more time with the Dodonna/Squadron heavy lists that are at my disposal. There's also an evil voice that encourages me to field 10 X-wings once Wave 2 is official.

You do not understand. Rhymer is not OP. Rhymer is broken.

You need Rhymer to make squadrons work - without him the mechanics are nearly useless.

And with him you are just laying one pancake of a minefield on the table.

I can understand ppl saying they are sick of Rhymer Balls.

Seems wierd. I don't need Rhymer to make my B-Wings work.

Rhymer is an enhancer. An enhancer that is easily stopped. In fact I did that with Tycho and an X-Wing. Used them to weaken Rhymer and then killed him. He was stuck in the background for most of the game which worked well for me.

But how sick if you could recruit Rhymer to hang out with your Bs? That's a terrifying thought, lol.

You do not understand. Rhymer is not OP. Rhymer is broken.

You need Rhymer to make squadrons work - without him the mechanics are nearly useless.

And with him you are just laying one pancake of a minefield on the table.

I can understand ppl saying they are sick of Rhymer Balls.

Seems wierd. I don't need Rhymer to make my B-Wings work.

Rhymer is an enhancer. An enhancer that is easily stopped. In fact I did that with Tycho and an X-Wing. Used them to weaken Rhymer and then killed him. He was stuck in the background for most of the game which worked well for me.

But how sick if you could recruit Rhymer to hang out with your Bs? That's a terrifying thought, lol.

Like Rhymer + a bunch of Firesprays?

Lets see how wave 2 plays out.